Shooter: It’s beginning to look like Mark Coyle made the right hire in PJ Fleck

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die hard gopher said:
All you can really do as an AD is hire the coach who has the best body of work and hope it pans out. It doesn't guarantee anything if you do that but it gives you the best chance at success.
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And I want to doubly emphasize that it had to be a coach that would actually consider our opening!!

Tom Herman, Tony Dungy, etc. were not going to consider our opening, for various reasons. So they don’t count.

I think, for a program like ours, hiring a solid, younger head coach who had proven himself at the MAC level is the perfect hire. You give him what he needs, and you let him try it his way. See if he can win. There’s really not much else you can do.
 

Gophers_4life said:
And I want to doubly emphasize that it had to be a coach that would actually consider our opening!!

Tom Herman, Tony Dungy, etc. were not going to consider our opening, for various reasons. So they don’t count.

I think, for a program like ours, hiring a solid, younger head coach who had proven himself at the MAC level is the perfect hire. You give him what he needs, and you let him try it his way. See if he can win. There’s really not much else you can do.
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Gophers will regret not poaching Nick Saban from Bama!!!!!
 


Does Nick Saban win at Alabama like he has because his methods are the best, or because it’s Alabama, with it’s history and reputation and because there are so many 4 and 5 star recruits close to there and who want to go there regardless who the coach is??
 

GophersInIowa said:
Coyle: "Here is a blank check Mr. Saban, you can pay yourself whatever you want if you come to Minnesota."
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But first you must receive the support of the hiring committee, which is a cross section of the population at the U, all of which know little or nothing about D1 athletics.
 


Gophers_4life said:
Does Nick Saban win at Alabama like he has because his methods are the best, or because it’s Alabama, with it’s history and reputation and because there are so many 4 and 5 star recruits close to there and who want to go there regardless who the coach is??
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Is this a serious question
 



Gophers_4life said:
Does Nick Saban win at Alabama like he has because his methods are the best, or because it’s Alabama, with it’s history and reputation and because there are so many 4 and 5 star recruits close to there and who want to go there regardless who the coach is??
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Well considering the year before they hired Saban the gophers beat up on them in a bowl game...
 



Fleck is the coach, and Coyle will stand or fall based on Fleck's success.

For all we know, there might have been some other coach out there who would have been a better fit at MN or done a better job. but there is no way to know that. you can't turn back time. the decision was made and we all get to live the results - for better or worse.

I certainly hope that Coyle made his choice based on a firm belief that Fleck was the best person for the job - not whether he was the "hot" choice or the "up and coming" young coach on the market. You should not hire someone because you want to win the press conference. you hire someone because you think they can do the job as well as, or better than, anyone else who was available and interested in the position.

Granted, the situation was a little unusual with the fallout from the incident, and firing a coach who had just won 9 games including a bowl win. So that likely colored Coyle's decision-making process.

maybe someday Coyle will write a book and tell the whole story. It would be fascinating to really know what went on behind the scenes with Kaler; whether any other coaches were contacted; whether any other coaches expressed interest; etc. and the biggie - when did Coyle first make contact with Fleck's people? But, in all reality, we'll probably never know.
 

Gophers_4life said:
Does Nick Saban win at Alabama like he has because his methods are the best, or because it’s Alabama, with it’s history and reputation and because there are so many 4 and 5 star recruits close to there and who want to go there regardless who the coach is??
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Alabama records
1997: 4-7
1998:7-5
2000: 3-8
2001: 7-5
2003: 4-9
2004: 6-6 (lost to the gophers)
2006: 6-7
2007: 7-6 (year one of Saban)

From 2008, it took off.

Also at LSU

1998: 4-7
1999: 3-8
2000: 8-4 (Saban's first year)

then he wins the national championship in 2003.

And he took MSU from 6-5 in year one to 10-2 in year 5. The year before he took over they were 5-6.

Also he went 9-2 in one year at Toledo while they went 6-5 the year before.
 
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There is no secret sauce or special formula.

Neither Saban nor Sweeney have invented some special process, method, or scheme that no one else in the country knows how to do.

Somehow they figured out a way to get the 4 and 5 star athletes they needed to win national championships. If that’s by paying the players families, their handlers, whatever, who knows. Maybe, maybe not. Wouldn’t surprise me though.
 

die hard gopher said:
Alabama records
1997: 4-7
1998:7-5
2000: 3-8
2001: 7-5
2003: 4-9
2004: 6-6 (lost to the gophers)
2006: 6-7
2007: 7-6 (year one of Saban)

From 2008, it took off.

Also at LSU

1998: 4-7
1999: 3-8
2000: 8-4 (Saban's first year)

then he wins the national championship in 2003.

And he took MSU from 6-5 in year one to 10-3 in year 5

Also he went 9-2 in one year at Toledo while they went 6-5 the year before.
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Whaaat? You mean it is possible a new HC can come in and in their first year maintain or improve on the proceeding season? Was told by many out here that was an unreasonable and unrealistic expectation...
 



short ornery norwegian said:
based on a firm belief that Fleck was the best person for the job - not whether he was the "hot" choice or the "up and coming" young coach on the market.
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But again, these were exactly the same thing.

I challenge you to come up with a hypothetical coach — make up any scenario you want, any background you want — that meet two criteria: a) would’ve been an objectively step change better hire than Fleck at the time, and b) would’ve actually considered Minnesota’s opening.
 

PMWinSTP said:
Was told by many out here that was an unreasonable and unrealistic expectation...
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You don’t understand the definition of expectation, then.

Results can exceed expectations. It is possible. No one claimed otherwise.
 

By total coincidence this happens to work well when sung to the tune of "It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Christmas"



It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Ev'rywhere you go
take a look around the Big Ten,
Gold helmets glistening once again
With Stadium Village and Dinky Town aglow

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Maroon in ev'ry store
But the prettiest sight to see
is the trophies that will be
On your own front door

A pair of marching band boots and a big horn that toots
Is the wish of Barney and Ben
Goldy dolls that will talk and will go for a walk
Is the hope of Janice and Jen
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for school to start again

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Ev'rywhere you go
there's a block M in the Grand Hotel,
One in the park as well
the sturdy kind that doesn't mind the snow

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Soon the victory bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the rouser that you sing
Right within your heart.
 

Gophers_4life said:
You don’t understand the definition of expectation, then.

Results can exceed expectations. It is possible. No one claimed otherwise.
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I do. Correct. Correct. Yes, many did, in multiple threads, over and over.
 

Gophers_4life said:
There is no secret sauce or special formula.

Neither Saban nor Sweeney have invented some special process, method, or scheme that no one else in the country knows how to do.

Somehow they figured out a way to get the 4 and 5 star athletes they needed to win national championships. If that’s by paying the players families, their handlers, whatever, who knows. Maybe, maybe not. Wouldn’t surprise me though.
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He didn’t invent it but it’s clear some coaches have a combination of leadership qualities and X and Os smarts that allow them to consistently win. Whether it’s fitting the scheme to the players (see Rossi, Joe for one clear example), having an eye for and recruiting talent, making the right assistant hires, motivating players to push through to their best, teaching scheme, and making the right game day calls some coaches are much, much better than others. Saban is rightfully acknowledged to be amongst the best in history at all these things. There are others that consistently win or overachieve at different levels.
 

Schnauzer said:
By total coincidence this happens to work well when sung to the tune of "It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Christmas"



It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Ev'rywhere you go
take a look around the Big Ten,
Gold helmets glistening once again
With Stadium Village and Dinky Town aglow

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Maroon in ev'ry store
But the prettiest sight to see
is the trophies that will be
On your own front door

A pair of marching band boots and a big horn that toots
Is the wish of Barney and Ben
Goldy dolls that will talk and will go for a walk
Is the hope of Janice and Jen
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for school to start again

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Ev'rywhere you go
there's a block M in the Grand Hotel,
One in the park as well
the sturdy kind that doesn't mind the snow

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Soon the victory bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the rouser that you sing
Right within your heart.
Click to expand...

This might win a grammy.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Saban is rightfully acknowledged to be amongst the best in history at all these things.
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Thing is, being at places like Alabama or LSU makes it hard to prove.

It’s like claiming “the reason a Lamborghini has such a higher top speed than a Toyota Carolla, is because they hired the very best designers and engineers”. OK, that might actually be true, but horsepower also plays a huge factor. So you can’t compare apples to watermelon.


The way to truly prove it would be for Saban to come to a place like Minnesota and then win a national title.

Me personally, very sorry to say, but I think there are just too many factors that are out of our control (“lack of horsepower”), aligned against us, for that to be possible. Hey, if Wisconsin or Iowa win a modern national title, I’ll revise that statement.


So until proven otherwise, I conclude that while it’s not incorrect to say “Nick Saban is the fastest driver in the planet for a reason!”, my response “But we can’t disentangle that from the fact that he drives a car with more horsepower than everyone else.”
 

As another poster pointed out, Saban took over a Bama team that was hovering at mediocre and immediately improved them. He did the same thing at MSU and LSU as well. It didn’t translate to the NFL, but he’s done it at each P5 stop
For you to suggest he’s only done it because of top end talent is false as he didn’t inherit top end talent at any one of those places.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Gophers_4life said:
Thing is, being at places like Alabama or LSU makes it hard to prove.

It’s like claiming “the reason a Lamborghini has such a higher top speed than a Toyota Carolla, is because they hired the very best designers and engineers”. OK, that might actually be true, but horsepower also plays a huge factor. So you can’t compare apples to watermelon.


The way to truly prove it would be for Saban to come to a place like Minnesota and then win a national title.

Me personally, very sorry to say, but I think there are just too many factors that are out of our control (“lack of horsepower”), aligned against us, for that to be possible. Hey, if Wisconsin or Iowa win a modern national title, I’ll revise that statement.


So until proven otherwise, I conclude that while it’s not incorrect to say “Nick Saban is the fastest driver in the planet for a reason!”, my response “But we can’t disentangle that from the fact that he drives a car with more horsepower than everyone else.”
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There can be only one national champion and Saban has excelled amongst that group of 15-20 programs that have a realistic shot of going all the way, at least under the current system. I agree the field is artificially limited which sort of invalidates the “champion” label but is what it is for now.

I’d disagree that MN cannot reach that level although it wouldn’t be easy. Teams like Oregon, Michigan State, Washington, Clemson, and even Wisconsin have either gotten to the CFP or had the national hype to help get there if they win out.

As the saying goes, and this is 100% true, 90% of life is just showing up and giving effort. Success can often follow.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
and even Wisconsin have either gotten to the CFP or had the national hype to help get there if they win out.
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Like I said, if Wisco wins a modern national title, then I will agree it’s possible here.

I don’t believe it can happen. By will be happy to be proven wrong. And they’re closer to Lake Michigan.
 

Schnauzer said:
By total coincidence this happens to work well when sung to the tune of "It's Beginning To Look A Lot Like Christmas"



It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Ev'rywhere you go
take a look around the Big Ten,
Gold helmets glistening once again
With Stadium Village and Dinky Town aglow

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Maroon in ev'ry store
But the prettiest sight to see
is the trophies that will be
On your own front door

A pair of marching band boots and a big horn that toots
Is the wish of Barney and Ben
Goldy dolls that will talk and will go for a walk
Is the hope of Janice and Jen
And Mom and Dad can hardly wait for school to start again

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Ev'rywhere you go
there's a block M in the Grand Hotel,
One in the park as well
the sturdy kind that doesn't mind the snow

It's beginning to look a lot like Fleck Success
Soon the victory bells will start
And the thing that will make them ring
Is the rouser that you sing
Right within your heart.
Click to expand...

This song also popped into my head when reading the headline. Well played.
 

GFBfan said:
As another poster pointed out, Saban took over a Bama team that was hovering at mediocre and immediately improved them. He did the same thing at MSU and LSU as well. It didn’t translate to the NFL, but he’s done it at each P5 stop
For you to suggest he’s only done it because of top end talent is false as he didn’t inherit top end talent at any one of those places.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...

LSU and Alabama still had a hell of a lot more talent than the 2017 Gophers.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
LSU and Alabama still had a hell of a lot more talent than the 2017 Gophers.
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Not sure anyone said otherwise.

Maybe the point was that Saban came to AL in ‘07. Their 5-year avg recruiting ranking when he arrived (247) was 25th in the Nation and 7th in the SEC. 4-year avg (247) was 23/6. He went 7-6 then 12-2, 14-0.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Gophers_4life said:
Thing is, being at places like Alabama or LSU makes it hard to prove.

It’s like claiming “the reason a Lamborghini has such a higher top speed than a Toyota Carolla, is because they hired the very best designers and engineers”. OK, that might actually be true, but horsepower also plays a huge factor. So you can’t compare apples to watermelon.


The way to truly prove it would be for Saban to come to a place like Minnesota and then win a national title.

Me personally, very sorry to say, but I think there are just too many factors that are out of our control (“lack of horsepower”), aligned against us, for that to be possible. Hey, if Wisconsin or Iowa win a modern national title, I’ll revise that statement.


So until proven otherwise, I conclude that while it’s not incorrect to say “Nick Saban is the fastest driver in the planet for a reason!”, my response “But we can’t disentangle that from the fact that he drives a car with more horsepower than everyone else.”
Click to expand...

In the 10 years prior to Saban taking over at LSU, LSU won less games than Mason did in his 10 years here. LSU wasn't a Lamborghini until Saban got there.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
In the 10 years prior to Saban taking over at LSU, LSU won less games than Mason did in his 10 years here. LSU wasn't a Lamborghini until Saban got there.
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Sorry, doesn’t do it for me. The amount of 4/5 star talent in Louisiana alone, plus neighboring Miss and East Texas, and the amount of money that pours into that program and the size of their fan base (stadium, avg attendance), you’re talking apples to watermelon.

All it takes at programs like that (LSU, Auburn, Alabama) is a guy who can get the right kids to sign there. That’s it. The rest takes care of itself. Same would be true at places like Miss, TA&M, Georgia, Tennessee, etc. My gut feeling is it’s just about paying the right people off, to get those national championship winning kids in there. I feel like that’s how it works down there. Cam Newton is a great example.

Let’s see those coaches come to Minnesota and win a modern natty. THEN I’ll believe they have some special sauce hat nobody else knows how to do. Until then, nope.
 

GFBfan said:
As another poster pointed out, Saban took over a Bama team that was hovering at mediocre and immediately improved them. He did the same thing at MSU and LSU as well. It didn’t translate to the NFL, but he’s done it at each P5 stop
For you to suggest he’s only done it because of top end talent is false as he didn’t inherit top end talent at any one of those places.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Click to expand...


When Saban took over at Bama, the three prior recruiting classes were ranked, 21, 16, and 13.
Not sure whose argument I'm helping if anyone's at all.
 

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