Shedeur Sanders’ Slide in NFL Draft Cost Him $44 Million

[STPGopher]

Love that and thank you for posting.

Marciac is a city in France that hosts an annual jazz festival, and this year also featured Wynton Marsalis. The 2009 video you posted is from that festival.

The Marciac Suite is also an album by the Wynton Marsalis septet, and an album I have had a love affair with for 25 years. Wynton Marsalis loves syncopation, and the Marciac Suite is the best example of syncopation over an entire album that I can think of. It is a gem from start to finish.

Not sure if this playlist will copy correctly, but this should be the whole album, you may have to click the forward button to get to the next song, and the closing song, “Sunflowers” is my favorite of the entire album. My first son, before he could walk, would hold himself up on our media console and sway (dance?) with this song every time I played it. It holds a special place in my heart.

Thanks!

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Progress isn’t proof the problem’s gone, it’s proof the fight mattered.

New evidence shows how NFL discriminates against Black QBs

Black quarterbacks are penalized in the draft solely for being Black, a new SFGATE analysis strongly suggests, and it’s a penalty that reverberates years into their professional careers.

www.sfgate.com

Racial stereotypes influence perception of NFL quarterbacks

Racial stereotypes affect public perception of NFL quarterbacks and, in some cases, may become a self-fulfilling prophecy for black athletes, new CU Boulder

www.colorado.edu

I don't wanna get too deep into this because it's unlikely anyone's mind will change. But, just looking at the text of these links, notice the terms like "suggests" and "in some cases, may become".

In other words, it's open to interpretation and like almost all things now, you can find a link supporting whatever view you're looking to have supported.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

You’re not gonna get one for that head in the sand, 'talking about racism perpetuate racism' silliness you just wrote lol.

I don't think that's what the poster said/was trying to get across.

You bring up some good points, like with the GI housing stuff, but you also seem like you're taking everything in through your own lens, including the thoughts of those on the other side of the argument.

 

[mcrow47]

You’re not gonna get one for that head in the sand, 'talking about racism perpetuate racism' silliness you just wrote lol. Gotta have some level of knowledge beyond your own uninformed feelings to have a real discussion and I'm doubtful you've had a real conversation about this with someone who doesn't share your thought process a day in your life.

I'm not saying talking about Racism perpetuates racism. I'm saying people who think they way you do under estimate the progress made. There is absolutely no proof , today, that there are any issues for black QBs in the NFL. That's the entire point I'm making. But people like you keep going back in time when there was an issue and using that as if it's proof there's still an issue. I believe half of the starting QBs in the NFL are black now. Nobody with half a brain thinks black players can't be good at QB anymore.

Yeah, there will always be some yahoo in his parent's basement who still has racist takes on QBs but people are spending a hell of a lot of time and effort to make that sound like it's a widespread issue and it's not. And it's not in the NFL and certain people continue to make a big deal about it in the NFL.

 

[mcrow47]

Progress isn’t proof the problem’s gone, it’s proof the fight mattered.

New evidence shows how NFL discriminates against Black QBs

Black quarterbacks are penalized in the draft solely for being Black, a new SFGATE analysis strongly suggests, and it’s a penalty that reverberates years into their professional careers.

www.sfgate.com

Racial stereotypes influence perception of NFL quarterbacks

Racial stereotypes affect public perception of NFL quarterbacks and, in some cases, may become a self-fulfilling prophecy for black athletes, new CU Boulder

www.colorado.edu

OK, then at what point is the issue solved? This is the problem with people on this subject.

If you think there will ever be a day where there is zero bias (targeting anyone of any race, gender...ect) you are just purposely continuing a divisive culture. There will never be a day where people have no biases. There are biases against white players in the NBA that are more legit right now that ones against black QBs at this point. Heck, there is probably more bias against white DBs and WR in the NFL right now that black QBs. I'm not complaining about that though as I understand if you just look at populations some folks seem better at some things than others in general. Doesn't mean any given individual can't be good because they don't fit that profile.

Like Kenyan distance runners, you see a Kenyan in a race they probably will be fast. Jamaicans are very strong in the sprinting events, has been that way for a long time. The vast majority of the world's strongest men winners are from Northern European heritage. These are things that are facts, not bias.

So some biases are based on facts. I don't think that is the case with QBs given the current level of diversity in QBs. But the point remains, at what point is racism "dead" enough to quit making everything about race? I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist in the world. I'm saying that there is a diminishing return at this point in some areas, like QBs in the NFL. I'm still waiting on someone to show me some proof that there is anything happening in the NFL that is keeping QBs from getting a fair shot. I all I ever get is this stuff that is very obscure, no facts, opinion, and stuff about feelings. I'm sorry but if that is all you have then we don't have an actual problem anymore. The world isn't going to be perfect for anyone no matter what race you are.

 

[STPGopher]

OK, then at what point is the issue solved? This is the problem with people on this subject.

If you think there will ever be a day where there is zero bias (targeting anyone of any race, gender...ect) you are just purposely continuing a divisive culture. There will never be a day where people have no biases. There are biases against white players in the NBA that are more legit right now that ones against black QBs at this point. Heck, there is probably more bias against white DBs and WR in the NFL right now that black QBs. I'm not complaining about that though as I understand if you just look at populations some folks seem better at some things than others in general. Doesn't mean any given individual can't be good because they don't fit that profile.

Like Kenyan distance runners, you see a Kenyan in a race they probably will be fast. Jamaicans are very strong in the sprinting events, has been that way for a long time. The vast majority of the world's strongest men winners are from Northern European heritage. These are things that are facts, not bias.

So some biases are based on facts. I don't think that is the case with QBs given the current level of diversity in QBs. But the point remains, at what point is racism "dead" enough to quit making everything about race? I'm not saying we shouldn't talk about it. I'm not saying it doesn't exist in the world. I'm saying that there is a diminishing return at this point in some areas, like QBs in the NFL. I'm still waiting on someone to show me some proof that there is anything happening in the NFL that is keeping QBs from getting a fair shot. I all I ever get is this stuff that is very obscure, no facts, opinion, and stuff about feelings. I'm sorry but if that is all you have then we don't have an actual problem anymore. The world isn't going to be perfect for anyone no matter what race you are.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

OK, then at what point is the issue solved?

It won't be "solved". Just like you mentioned there will always be people with biases, there will also always be a) people who feel the need to fight for a cause, and b) people who are attracted to the victim mentality. When they gravitate towards one another....

Edit: this wasn't directed at at oleboy41, it's terrible his kids were called that word and I agree with him on the GI home ownership issue. I was speaking in general terms.

 

[fmlizard]

While I believe overall racism in American society remains high and is rising rapidly in recent years, the last 3 #1 overall NFL draft picks and 5 of the last 10 have been Black QBs.

That doesn't count Jayden Daniels #2, CJ Stroud #2, Trey Lance #3, Anthony Richardson #4, Michael Penix #8 in the last 5 years.

I just don't see it among the QBs with 1/3 of the franchises making the choice to make a rookie Black QB the face of their franchise in recent years.

This also doesn't count dudes like Lamar, Hurts, Dak, Love, Mahomes, etc. who all got massive, well deserved contract extensions to be the face of franchises. Even DeShaun Watson got an enormous guaranteed deal with all the issues he had.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

While I believe overall racism in American society remains high and is rising rapidly in recent years, the last 3 #1 overall NFL draft picks and 5 of the last 10 have been Black QBs.

That doesn't count Jayden Daniels #2, CJ Stroud #2, Trey Lance #3, Anthony Richardson #4, Michael Penix #8 in the last 5 years.

I just don't see it among the QBs with 1/3 of the franchises making the choice to make a rookie Black QB the face of their franchise in recent years.

This also doesn't count dudes like Lamar, Hurts, Dak, Love, Mahomes, etc. who all got massive, well deserved contract extensions to be the face of franchises. Even DeShaun Watson got an enormous guaranteed deal with all the issues he had.

Also, wasn't Deshaun Watson the first to get a fully guaranteed contract? With the mess surrounding him in Houston, it would have been easy for teams to pass on him and say, "it's not his skin color, it's the massage issues" yet someone still wanted him with the baggage.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

While I believe overall racism in American society remains high and is rising rapidly in recent years, the last 3 #1 overall NFL draft picks and 5 of the last 10 have been Black QBs.

That doesn't count Jayden Daniels #2, CJ Stroud #2, Trey Lance #3, Anthony Richardson #4, Michael Penix #8 in the last 5 years.

I just don't see it among the QBs with 1/3 of the franchises making the choice to make a rookie Black QB the face of their franchise in recent years.

This also doesn't count dudes like Lamar, Hurts, Dak, Love, Mahomes, etc. who all got massive, well deserved contract extensions to be the face of franchises.

Yeah as an overall pattern with GMs and coaches and money on the line ... it doesn't make sense that as a league overall they would choose a black and white choice like "naw to the black QBs". It just doesn't seem to be happening that way.

Some one off GM or owner, sure anything is possible, but as a league ... doesn't add up.

Shedeur, there's a truck load of reasons to draft him late at best and none of those reasons are race.

 

[mcrow47]

It won't be "solved". Just like you mentioned there will always be people with biases, there will also always be a) people who feel the need to fight for a cause, and b) people who are attracted to the victim mentality. When they gravitate towards one another....

Edit: this wasn't directed at at oleboy41, it's terrible his kids were called that word and I agree with him on the GI home ownership issue. I was speaking in general terms.

I also wasn't addressing his situation specifically, just the QB situation. Just in case it came off that way.

 

[mcrow47]

While I believe overall racism in American society remains high and is rising rapidly in recent years, the last 3 #1 overall NFL draft picks and 5 of the last 10 have been Black QBs.

That doesn't count Jayden Daniels #2, CJ Stroud #2, Trey Lance #3, Anthony Richardson #4, Michael Penix #8 in the last 5 years.

I just don't see it among the QBs with 1/3 of the franchises making the choice to make a rookie Black QB the face of their franchise in recent years.

This also doesn't count dudes like Lamar, Hurts, Dak, Love, Mahomes, etc. who all got massive, well deserved contract extensions to be the face of franchises. Even DeShaun Watson got an enormous guaranteed deal with all the issues he had.

See, this is the issue. I don't see how you can possibly look at society today and think racism is still "High" and "rising rapidly". Based on what other than watching the new which is purposely trying to make stories of everything to drive ratings?

If you walk around in society and pay attention, I don't really see it. I think media makes racial issues out to be bigger than they really are. I don't even remember that last time I saw or heard anything in my daily life that seemed racist in anyway. And I think if you did the same you would probably have a hard time remembering one too.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I just don't see where anyone can show evidence that racism is high and rising. I mean, it really does not make sense to me at all how that can be the case.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

See, this is the issue. I don't see how you can possibly look at society today and think racism is still "High" and "rising rapidly". Based on what other than watching the new which is purposely trying to make stories of everything to drive ratings?

If you walk around in society and pay attention, I don't really see it. I think media makes racial issues out to be bigger than they really are. I don't even remember that last time I saw or heard anything in my daily life that seemed racist in anyway. And I think if you did the same you would probably have a hard time remembering one too.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I just don't see where anyone can show evidence that racism is high and rising. I mean, it really does not make sense to me at all how that can be the case.

I tend to think it's going the other direction. Growing up and having spent most of my life in Mpls, I can definitely tell you there was racism in the '80s (earliest I can recall due to age) that certainly does not exist now.

Small sample size? Maybe. But other metropolitan areas must be similar.

 

[mcrow47]

I tend to think it's going the other direction. Growing up and having spent most of my life in Mpls, I can definitely tell you there was racism in the '80s (earliest I can recall due to age) that certainly does not exist now.

Small sample size? Maybe. But other metropolitan areas must be similar.

Yeah, that's the same for me. I actually lived near Detroit Lakes in the 80's until I was 16, then moved to Minneapolis and went to an inner city school for my last two years of High School. And lived in Minneapolis for 15 years after that. I did see things then that were racist on a regular basis. But I don't anymore. I just don't think some of the younger people have an actual concept but now just about everything that affects someone who is not white and isn't positive is considered some form of racism. So we went from actual racism, now finding new things that are racism. Funny how politics has affected things since then.

 

[fmlizard]

See, this is the issue. I don't see how you can possibly look at society today and think racism is still "High" and "rising rapidly". Based on what other than watching the new which is purposely trying to make stories of everything to drive ratings?

If you walk around in society and pay attention, I don't really see it. I think media makes racial issues out to be bigger than they really are. I don't even remember that last time I saw or heard anything in my daily life that seemed racist in anyway. And I think if you did the same you would probably have a hard time remembering one too.

Not saying it doesn't happen, just saying I just don't see where anyone can show evidence that racism is high and rising. I mean, it really does not make sense to me at all how that can be the case.

Have you been on social media in the last few years? Any comment section anywhere?

The most powerful people in the world have been adopting thinly veiled fascist rhetoric for years now. They may not be screaming the N word in public but it's more organized and sinister than any time since at least the 1960s.

The current US government is both fretting about population decline and also hell bent on kicking mostly non-white people out of the country by any means necessary at the same time. Screaming for babies while making deportations the #1 national priority. While opening the doors wide open for white South Africans. That's a bunch of huge tells.

And nobody is making a peep about the hundreds of thousands of Ukranians who have settled in the USA since the war. Cause they are white.

But no, it's not affecting highly paid pro athletes.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Yeah, that's the same for me. I actually lived near Detroit Lakes in the 80's until I was 16, then moved to Minneapolis and went to an inner city school for my last two years of High School.

Which one? Edison Tommie here.

 

[mcrow47]

Have you been on social media in the last few years? Any comment section anywhere?

The most powerful people in the world have been adopting thinly veiled fascist rhetoric for years now. They may not be screaming the N word in public but it's more organized and sinister than any time since at least the 1960s.

The current US government is both fretting about population decline and also hell bent on kicking mostly non-white people out of the country by any means necessary at the same time. Screaming for babies while making deportations the #1 national priority. While opening the doors wide open for white South Africans. That's a bunch of huge tells.

And nobody is making a peep about the hundreds of thousands of Ukranians who have settled in the USA since the war. Cause they are white.

But no, it's not affecting highly paid pro athletes.

Social media isn't the best measure. I don't even know what it would have looked like back in the 80's if it existed. Social Media is full of trolls and bots, it's not proof either way. You can find anything you want on social media if you want to find it. I'm talking about real people, interacting with real people, in real life.

And US Government is just enforcing the law. We have to have laws regarding immigration. We can't just let millions and millions of people come here and have no idea who any of them are. They are putting a strain on public services and do not contribute even close to the equal to the tax base. I mean, you keep pumping the country full of low income people, guess who ends up picking up the slack? The vast majority of Americans are for immigration if you follow the law. I think they should make getting a green card an easier process but the answer to that is to pass law to do it, not just let people run across the border unchecked. At every turn we are excusing people who break laws and making the law and law enforcement the villains. It doesn't matter if it's immigration or domestic law enforcement, that is what is happening. It's absolutely ridiculous. I blame this on people that did nothing to stop illegal immigration in the first place. It's your fault people came here against the law because you gave them the idea they didn't have to obey the law, just show up to a sanctuary city and you can't be touched. It encouraged people to come here illegally, and now it's also the reason deportation is happening the way it is because you encouraged them to come here in the first place. It's simple. They came here. They broke the law in doing so. What part of that is difficult? What do you think would happen if I jumped off a boat and swam up on the shore of Japan? As soon as authorities found out I'd be deported. There was a time when we valued our laws and if we found we made bad ones we just changed them, we didn't encourage people to break them and then throw a fit every time someone got prosecuted for it.

I have friends that are immigrants, legal ones. Why is it they went through the process to come here legally and others can't? My friends have family that can't come here because they can't get status, they aren't planning to run across the border illegally. Personally, I think first we need to secure the border, strictly enforce the current law so that people actually take trying to come here illegally seriously. Then we need to work on laws to make working in the US easier and then we have to be absolutely strict enforcing it. I think it should be no more than a few months for someone to get status to work in the US as long as a background check is passed and they have identification. I think that would be something worth working on but at the same time we can't just excuse people who purposely broke laws to come here.

As for South Africans, that's a much smaller group of people that we are dealing with at the border and South Africa is not over run with white drug cartels and are not trying to come here illegally. They also have a legit reason to request asylum.

And nobody should have an issue with people from a war torn country looking for asylum.

The vast majority of illegal immigrants are from Mexico. Very few are in any imminent danger. They just want to come here because they can make a better living here. That is the difference between them and the South Africans & Ukranians. And there are a lot of Mexicans that come here legally, why is it we are mad about the ones who don't? Three are about 6.5 million legal Mexican immigrants in the US, if we hate them so much we are doing a piss poor job by letting millions in legally.

Very low IQ, news watching take to think that the immigration has anything to do with race. It just happens that Mexican folks make up the vast majority of people who come here illegally. And they are the largest single group of people who also come here legally......so.

 

[mcrow47]

Which one? Edison Tommie here.

Southwest.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Have you been on social media in the last few years? Any comment section anywhere?

People talk trash all the time on social media, typically when they are fired up. I don't think it's a good sample to take. Plus, it says something about a person to waste their time on social media like that. So I'd think, but I could be wrong, that you're looking at a small sample size.

Heck, just look at our off-topic board for politics. If a person from Mars came here and read that, what would they think of our population in general? Probably not much good.

and also hell bent on kicking mostly non-white people out of the country by any means necessary

It's not their skin color that makes them targets for deportation - it's the manner in which they entered.

While opening the doors wide open for white South Africans. That's a bunch of huge tells.

And nobody is making a peep about the hundreds of thousands of Ukranians who have settled in the USA since the war. Cause they are white.

Were the Somalians brought here because they were black? Or was it because there was a war going on in their country?

Trying to inject skin color when it's not the issue - that's the problem.

But no, it's not affecting highly paid pro athletes.

Agreed.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

And nobody should have an issue with people from a war torn country looking for asylum.

Excellent post. This part I wanted to highlight. I know of multiple people who had legit asylum claims because they were legitimately being tortured and threatened with death for their religious views. They were given asylum here and rightly so.

It's a slap in the face to them and others like them when 21M+ people are told how to game the system for asylum status when they aren't in danger back home.

 

[mcrow47]

Excellent post. This part I wanted to highlight. I know of multiple people who had legit asylum claims because they were legitimately being tortured and threatened with death for their religious views. They were given asylum here and rightly so.

It's a slap in the face to them and others like them when 21M+ people are told how to game the system for asylum status when they aren't in danger back home.

Exactly, there is no way that many people legit need asylum from a country that is not at war and there is no persecution going on. It's ridiculous.

 

[GopherTheJugular]

Time to call it a day, but I gotta admit, the discussion here was FAR more civil than if this was on tOTB. Thanks for that, to posters on both sides of the discussion.

 

[highwayman]

Have you been on social media in the last few years? Any comment section anywhere?

The most powerful people in the world have been adopting thinly veiled fascist rhetoric for years now. They may not be screaming the N word in public but it's more organized and sinister than any time since at least the 1960s.

The current US government is both fretting about population decline and also hell bent on kicking mostly non-white people out of the country by any means necessary at the same time. Screaming for babies while making deportations the #1 national priority. While opening the doors wide open for white South Africans. That's a bunch of huge tells.

And nobody is making a peep about the hundreds of thousands of Ukranians who have settled in the USA since the war. Cause they are white.

But no, it's not affecting highly paid pro athletes.

You're embarrassing yourself.

 

[oleboy41]

I don't think that's what the poster said/was trying to get across.

You bring up some good points, like with the GI housing stuff, but you also seem like you're taking everything in through your own lens, including the thoughts of those on the other side of the argument.

That's possible. I appreciate the feedback. I try to be measured but I'm sure I can be guilty of not always considering other opinions or projecting. Know better, do better as they say

 

[oleboy41]

I'm not saying talking about Racism perpetuates racism. I'm saying people who think they way you do under estimate the progress made. There is absolutely no proof , today, that there are any issues for black QBs in the NFL. That's the entire point I'm making. But people like you keep going back in time when there was an issue and using that as if it's proof there's still an issue. I believe half of the starting QBs in the NFL are black now. Nobody with half a brain thinks black players can't be good at QB anymore.

Yeah, there will always be some yahoo in his parent's basement who still has racist takes on QBs but people are spending a hell of a lot of time and effort to make that sound like it's a widespread issue and it's not. And it's not in the NFL and certain people continue to make a big deal about it in the NFL.

I definitely misunderstood your initial point so I appreciate the clarification. I do think that you're misunderstanding mine as well, though. In simple terms, I'm saying I don't fault anyone for posing the question. I don't dismiss out of hand the idea that racism could be a factor. That's what this whole discussion was about. And the reason I don't dismiss it IS because of history. And not only history from 60 years ago, but recent history. If you don't think race and the views on race, justice, activism, etc held by NFL fans, coaches and owners played a role into the Kaepernick situation then I don't know what to tell you. And you are right that a ton of progress has been made both in the NFL and in the nation at large. An issue, however, is that often people point to that progress as a way of essentially saying 'isn't that good enough? Now quit talking about it'. And that is in essence what I push back against. Progress does not automatically equate to equality. It just means things are better than they were. You say 'people like me' underestimate progress which is just an insane thing to say as I'm probably more aware of the progress made than almost anyone on this board as I live with it daily and am thankful for it daily. I preach to my kids to be thankful for the life they're able to live that their grandparents weren't. And I come from a family that has very publicly fought for that progress here in the great state of MN. But 'people like me' are also aware of the progress that needs to be made. So when someone says 'I think race played a factor' I think at the very least the reasoning should be considered. Because the reality is that racism isn't just yahoos in basements (the propaganda that makes it easy for people to say 'see, I'm not like them'), it's systems of structure and power that keeps certain groups out and others in.

 

[PMWinSTP]

Wow, this thread went well off the tracks.

 

[mcrow47]

I definitely misunderstood your initial point so I appreciate the clarification. I do think that you're misunderstanding mine as well, though. In simple terms, I'm saying I don't fault anyone for posing the question. I don't dismiss out of hand the idea that racism could be a factor. That's what this whole discussion was about. And the reason I don't dismiss it IS because of history. And not only history from 60 years ago, but recent history. If you don't think race and the views on race, justice, activism, etc held by NFL fans, coaches and owners played a role into the Kaepernick situation then I don't know what to tell you. And you are right that a ton of progress has been made both in the NFL and in the nation at large. An issue, however, is that often people point to that progress as a way of essentially saying 'isn't that good enough? Now quit talking about it'. And that is in essence what I push back against. Progress does not automatically equate to equality. It just means things are better than they were. You say 'people like me' underestimate progress which is just an insane thing to say as I'm probably more aware of the progress made than almost anyone on this board as I live with it daily and am thankful for it daily. I preach to my kids to be thankful for the life they're able to live that their grandparents weren't. And I come from a family that has very publicly fought for that progress here in the great state of MN. But 'people like me' are also aware of the progress that needs to be made. So when someone says 'I think race played a factor' I think at the very least the reasoning should be considered. Because the reality is that racism isn't just yahoos in basements (the propaganda that makes it easy for people to say 'see, I'm not like them'), it's systems of structure and power that keeps certain groups out and others in.

I disagree with the last part. The majority of the reason some groups continue to be in the socioeconomic state they are in is single mother, single income homes, and culture that celebrates behavior that's conducive to succeeding in life. If there were more fathers in the household there would be less poverty, less poverty would make less crime, less crime would make fewer people in prison and fewer fatherless kids who perpetuate the situation over and over and over. There is a reason Asians tend to do very well in the US in spite of being a minority, they prioritize the family unit, morals, and education. Some groups are basically the opposite. There are no systems in the US keeping anyone down other than over taxation and regulation that we all experience. There is zero proof of systemic racism in the US that is active today.