Shama: Kill: Gopher Program Needs More Time

[pharmacygopher]

LOL - No, but I can say that you have convinced me that what is occurring at Minnesota is over your head.

HAHAHAHAHA

No one can be sure how things will work out. You have to be blind (my apologies to sight impaired!) to not see the culture change and development of the program. Will it eventually lead to wins?? I think so, but we'll see. I'll cheer loudly and profanely during the process though!

 

[Norsk_Gopher]

JK doesn't get a 5th yr if we avg 2 BT wins/season over the next 2. Can anyone here convince me that JK is not in over his head?

Do you want to be convinced? Despite a huge change in systems he maintained the previous year's record in year one, including a trophy game win. Year two he kept the same B1G record but added 3 non-conf wins despite and a trip to a bowl game. He has been able to keep his staff together. He has increased the tempo and confidence of the players in practice and in games (true, hard to measure but just open your eyes). He was able to get recruits that other schools wanted (maybe not a lot, but some). He has a history of improving team everywhere he has gone. Some say that well yes, but those places didn't play in the B1G, so what, neither did his opponents players.

 

[EG#9]

This shtick will finally run out if Kill wins 2 or fewer Big Ten games again in year 3. I still find it comical how Brewster is continually bashed by some of the same people who believe Kill has the program "going in the right direction". Brewster's roster never won fewer than 2 Big Ten games after year one and he was on a scorching hot seat after winning 3 Big Ten games in year 3. If you look at Brewster's third year, his team was only blown out once and that was on the road at Ohio State (won the conference, finished 5th in the nation) and even in that game was just 7-0 Buckeyes at halftime.

I don't care about the words, I care about the results. I personally was in favor of firing Brewster because I thought the message was 3-5 in the conference was not acceptable anymore. Brewster never got to coach just "his" kids and he was a first time head coach for whom a learning curve should have been expected in hindsight. We have a veteran coach who has not (yet) shown the ability to out recruit other Big Ten schools and has had a number of games where his team has come out completely unprepared and got blasted in the first half. I hope Kill is the right guy, but I also hope we don't mess around and give him extra years because a certain portion of the fan base likes him (ala the late Jim Wacker).

 

[Norsk_Gopher]

This shtick will finally run out.

Listen, if the Gophers don't improve this year, record wise or otherwise, having conversations about getting rid of him can be justified after the season (or late in the season). What is not justified at this point is talking about getting rid of him after 2 years when the team showed big improvements year-over-year. Some say the B1G record didn't improve; true, but it didn't get worse and the team did improve in numerous areas (pass defense and total defense being the most obvious but also the running game and offensive line play). Can you name one area they did worse in? No, serious can you? There very might well be (I am guessing a special team stat) but the direction, of at least last year compared to the 2 years before) is clear. If we don't make a bowl game this year and next, sure, go ahead and talk about getting rid of him. If there is a scandal (no, AJ doesn't count, but of course that is just my opinion), then talk about getting rid of him. Until then go ahead and talk about strengths, weaknesses, and predictions, but let them play the games before you start the next coaching search.

FYI. No I am not Kill's mom's best friend and no I have not told him that he is the most talented coach in the conference...but he is special!

 

[wait!what?]

I think the team is statistically poorer in turnovers than Brewsters Ballhawks. Those of us in the stands are grateful that we no longer see the QB or the DB look at the coaches pre/post snap with the body language of 'WTF coach'. those were bad days.

 

[e.bigelow]

I think the team is statistically poorer in turnovers than Brewsters Ballhawks. Those of us in the stands are grateful that we no longer see the QB or the DB look at the coaches pre/post snap with the body language of 'WTF coach'. those were bad days.

+ 1. Nicely stated! I agree!

 

[MNVCGUY]

Listen, if the Gophers don't improve this year, record wise or otherwise, having conversations about getting rid of him can be justified after the season (or late in the season). What is not justified at this point is talking about getting rid of him after 2 years when the team showed big improvements year-over-year. Some say the B1G record didn't improve; true, but it didn't get worse and the team did improve in numerous areas (pass defense and total defense being the most obvious but also the running game and offensive line play). Can you name one area they did worse in? No, serious can you? There very might well be (I am guessing a special team stat) but the direction, of at least last year compared to the 2 years before) is clear. If we don't make a bowl game this year and next, sure, go ahead and talk about getting rid of him. If there is a scandal (no, AJ doesn't count, but of course that is just my opinion), then talk about getting rid of him. Until then go ahead and talk about strengths, weaknesses, and predictions, but let them play the games before you start the next coaching search.

FYI. No I am not Kill's mom's best friend and no I have not told him that he is the most talented coach in the conference...but he is special!

Who are you arguing with? Even the most skeptical about Kill (myself included) feel you need to give him at least 4 years before pulling the plug. I don't see anyone saying he needs to go after year 2 but I also personally don't see any reason to be overly impressed by what he has accomplished to this point either. Next 2 years will make or break Kill's tenure at the U.

 

[Ole]

This shtick will finally run out if Kill wins 2 or fewer Big Ten games again in year 3. I still find it comical how Brewster is continually bashed by some of the same people who believe Kill has the program "going in the right direction". Brewster's roster never won fewer than 2 Big Ten games after year one and he was on a scorching hot seat after winning 3 Big Ten games in year 3. If you look at Brewster's third year, his team was only blown out once and that was on the road at Ohio State (won the conference, finished 5th in the nation) and even in that game was just 7-0 Buckeyes at halftime.

I don't care about the words, I care about the results. I personally was in favor of firing Brewster because I thought the message was 3-5 in the conference was not acceptable anymore. Brewster never got to coach just "his" kids and he was a first time head coach for whom a learning curve should have been expected in hindsight. We have a veteran coach who has not (yet) shown the ability to out recruit other Big Ten schools and has had a number of games where his team has come out completely unprepared and got blasted in the first half. I hope Kill is the right guy, but I also hope we don't mess around and give him extra years because a certain portion of the fan base likes him (ala the late Jim Wacker).

Unfortunately the wins and losses are the only statistic most people are willing to look at when it come to judging progress.
Brewster had a phenominal turnaround in year 2, and maintained it in year 3.
But it was built on the backs of JUCOs and the kids he brought in to fill those voids never developed or dropped out. He also neglected the offensive line terribly, and his teams never had any depth to handle injuries or to fill in bodies in grueling smashmouth games. His coaching turnover and system changes wasted a solid B1G QB's career aand had his defense continually learning different philosophies.

Kill has emphasized the offensive line, and overall depth is improved throughout the program. The players seem to be getting better, and we seem to have a solid system to teach to. We've retained coaches and recruits, and redshirted many kids who needed it.
We may only win 6-7 games again this year and maybe only 7-8 next, but if the program continues to retain coaches and players, and is built around the same system, eventually they will start to beat more teams than they lose to. Parlay those wins into recruiting for better players, pumped into the same solid program, redshirting those better players, winning more games, etc, etc. We get where wisky/NW/MSU are now, winning 9-10 games and given a shot at the helmet schools for conference titles.

This is likely a decade long journey, assuming gradual progress and continued bowl seasons.
You can't build towards the program we all want in less than that, IMO.

 

[Killjoy]

Thanks Ole!

Unfortunately the wins and losses are the only statistic most people are willing to look at when it come to judging progress.
Brewster had a phenominal turnaround in year 2, and maintained it in year 3.
But it was built on the backs of JUCOs and the kids he brought in to fill those voids never developed or dropped out. He also neglected the offensive line terribly, and his teams never had any depth to handle injuries or to fill in bodies in grueling smashmouth games. His coaching turnover and system changes wasted a solid B1G QB's career aand had his defense continually learning different philosophies.

Kill has emphasized the offensive line, and overall depth is improved throughout the program. The players seem to be getting better, and we seem to have a solid system to teach to. We've retained coaches and recruits, and redshirted many kids who needed it.
We may only win 6-7 games again this year and maybe only 7-8 next, but if the program continues to retain coaches and players, and is built around the same system, eventually they will start to beat more teams than they lose to. Parlay those wins into recruiting for better players, pumped into the same solid program, redshirting those better players, winning more games, etc, etc. We get where wisky/NW/MSU are now, winning 9-10 games and given a shot at the helmet schools for conference titles.

This is likely a decade long journey, assuming gradual progress and continued bowl seasons.
You can't build towards the program we all want in less than that, IMO.

Great analysis as to what it takes to turn a program like Minnesota's around. Kill knows how to do it but still may not exceed. If we don't give him enough time though, every good coach in the country will look at Minnesota as a place to avoid like the plague.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Great analysis as to what it takes to turn a program like Minnesota's around. Kill knows how to do it but still may not exceed. If we don't give him enough time though, ever good coach in the country will look at Minnesota as a place to avoid like the plague.

Big name high profile coaches may avoid Minnesota but there will always be another Jerry Kill willing to take a huge payraise to try and turn around a Big Ten program. Clearly this is not a long term success model though.

As long as Kill shows consistent progress he should be fine. But as NT showed with Tubby he won't wait around forever, so tough to say what his threshold is for giving a lot of rope to a guy he didn't hire.

 

[Gopherprof]

We may only win 6-7 games again this year and maybe only 7-8 next, but if the program continues to retain coaches and players, and is built around the same system, eventually they will start to beat more teams than they lose to.

The reason why these types of arguments usually tend to delve into straw men is stuff like this. I don't think anyone, anywhere, would have a problem if we "only" won 13-15 games over the next two seasons, especially if we can stop being curbstomped by the bigger programs.

 

[Ole]

The reason why these types of arguments usually tend to delve into straw men is stuff like this. I don't think anyone, anywhere, would have a problem if we "only" won 13-15 games over the next two seasons, especially if we can stop being curbstomped by the bigger programs.

The problem is, there are those who completely discount non conference games, which count as much against the record as an upset of Michigan. 1 W.
There would absolutely be wailing from some if Kill "only" wins 13 in the next 2 years, and there would be pitchforks sharpening, and screaming from some in he "only" wins 12.

If Kill cannot get to bowl games in the next few years, that will be a red flag.
I have no reason to think we cannot do that though, especially when most fans said 5 wins is likely this past year, and the media predicted 3 or less.

Injuries are the only snag i can see possibly jumping up and denying the program bowl games in the coming years, but even then, it would have to be key injuries or massive amounts of them due to Kill's improving of our depth.

 

[wait!what?]

The contradiction of Jerry dumping the UNC game to ease the sched and then having TCU added all within 6 mos. tells me that JK and NT have different timelines. The AD and FB coach have to be single minded to have program a chance of success. i'm afraid we may not have that here.

 

[pharmacygopher]

Unfortunately the wins and losses are the only statistic most people are willing to look at when it come to judging progress.
Brewster had a phenominal turnaround in year 2, and maintained it in year 3.
But it was built on the backs of JUCOs and the kids he brought in to fill those voids never developed or dropped out. He also neglected the offensive line terribly, and his teams never had any depth to handle injuries or to fill in bodies in grueling smashmouth games. His coaching turnover and system changes wasted a solid B1G QB's career aand had his defense continually learning different philosophies.

Kill has emphasized the offensive line, and overall depth is improved throughout the program. The players seem to be getting better, and we seem to have a solid system to teach to. We've retained coaches and recruits, and redshirted many kids who needed it.
We may only win 6-7 games again this year and maybe only 7-8 next, but if the program continues to retain coaches and players, and is built around the same system, eventually they will start to beat more teams than they lose to. Parlay those wins into recruiting for better players, pumped into the same solid program, redshirting those better players, winning more games, etc, etc. We get where wisky/NW/MSU are now, winning 9-10 games and given a shot at the helmet schools for conference titles.

This is likely a decade long journey, assuming gradual progress and continued bowl seasons.
You can't build towards the program we all want in less than that, IMO.

Thank you, great take. There is just something about the way Kill is developing the program that I like. Would I like instant success....of course!! I don't want instant success and fall back to terrible though. I feel like the program really has that solid foundation built, now we just need to find some big time play makers (Mr. Jones come on down!, maybe Berkeley Edwards) to take us over the top.

There was just something about Brew (I was fully on-board at first, as I am with every coach because I want the Gophers to succeed) that just wore thin. It felt like a JV team and not a B1G team.

 

[Norsk_Gopher]

there will always be another Jerry Kill willing to take a huge payraise to try and turn around a Big Ten program.

Well...don't forget that he is the lowest paid head coach in the B1G. That said, I would be willing to take his salary and try to turn around the program, but I wouldn't be good at it. I don't believe that we could get a better coach for the same amount of money. Brewster didn't get paid much (relative to B1G schools) either, did he?

 

[Norsk_Gopher]

Who are you arguing with?

How about wait!what? How about some local sports media. It seems that a lot (not the majority) have already given up/turned against/never believed in Jerry Kill.

Wait!what? - I don't follow this blog as much as another blog so if I misunderstood/represented how you feel, I apologize.

 

[MNVCGUY]

How about wait!what? How about some local sports media. It seems that a lot (not the majority) have already given up/turned against/never believed in Jerry Kill.

Wait!what? - I don't follow this blog as much as another blog so if I misunderstood/represented how you feel, I apologize.

There is certainly a lack of belief out there but I don't think it has hit the point of calling for his head. Now if we win 2 Big Ten games again this year you will hear a lot more grumbling from fans and media.

As for those that don't believe in Kill what they see is a coach that was the fallback choice after everyone they targeted said no. They see a guy who has had some success at lower levels but has yet to prove it at this level. They also see a guy who on paper is not doing a good job in recruiting. Not going to turn this into a star discussion or debate the merit of recruiting rankings vs. system I am just referring to what is visible on the surface for the media and the general fan base.

All that said he still needs more time before any final judgement, positive or negative, is placed on him.

 

[Ole]

The contradiction of Jerry dumping the UNC game to ease the sched and then having TCU added all within 6 mos. tells me that JK and NT have different timelines. The AD and FB coach have to be single minded to have program a chance of success. i'm afraid we may not have that here.

By the time we take the field against TCU, we'll have Kill's program "in full swing".
Keep in mind, at SIU he beat a B1G team, and at NIU he beat several. he's never been afraid of playing good competition, he just wanted time to get his pieces in place first, which makes sense to me, as it did to NT.
While Teague was very fast on the trigger on the basketball side of things, he knows that football is a different beast, and that Kill is going to need a "buffer" time, his words, to get things rolling before throwing the program against a tough and nationally recognized schedule. Regardless of what the critics and media blowhards say, a lower tier bowl game is critical to a program's success, especially one like Kill runs which is development based.
Again, should Kill not make bowl games in the next 2 years, we should be troubled, as that would indicate something hasn't gone according to plan.

 

[Gopherprof]

There would absolutely be wailing from some if Kill "only" wins 13 in the next 2 years, and there would be pitchforks sharpening, and screaming from some in he "only" wins 12.

With the schedule we have in 2014, I don't think that would be the case at all. Maybe if he fails to have a winning season in his first four years, but even then I think most people would be ok with .500 for the next two seasons considering who we play in '14.

 

[dpodoll68]

The contradiction of Jerry dumping the UNC game to ease the sched and then having TCU added all within 6 mos. tells me that JK and NT have different timelines. The AD and FB coach have to be single minded to have program a chance of success. i'm afraid we may not have that here.

Or it tells me that Kill wanted to wait a year before scheduling that caliber of game, which is what actually happened.

 

[50PoundHead]

How about wait!what? How about some local sports media. It seems that a lot (not the majority) have already given up/turned against/never believed in Jerry Kill.

Wait!what? - I don't follow this blog as much as another blog so if I misunderstood/represented how you feel, I apologize.

And I think those who have started rolling their eyes are rolling them because Kill keeps chanting the "need more time" mantra at about every stop on his tour. I think Jerry needs to shift gears.

 

[Norsk_Gopher]

Kill keeps chanting the "need more time" mantra at about every stop on his tour. I think Jerry needs to shift gears.

He did, he used to say that "we are a young team." Ok, so he still says that too....but he is right. On most teams, most starters and much of the second string are Juniors and Seniors with some Redshirt Sophomores thrown in, that not really the case with the Gophers (and many of our older players are JUCOs). However, after this year (in my opinion) the young team things does disappear for the most part and certainly the "need more time" can only last a couple of more years.

That said, I totally understand why you would feel that way, he's been saying that since he got here, but remember, that's only been two years.

 

[50PoundHead]

I don't disagree, but at some point, the mantra starts to sound like an excuse (much like the Twins "we're a small market team" line). I'd sooner Kill said something like, "We're going to play disciplined, hard-nosed football and anyone who plays us is going to know they've been in a game. The results will be what the results will be."

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

It IS a young team, and at this point I don't really care HOW many times Kill brings it up. Whether he says it or not, it doesn't change the composition of the roster.

My take? Until there are at least 5-7 Seniors starting on either side of the ball and/or there are LESS than 2-3 underclassmen starting on either side of the ball, this WILL be a young team. Translation:

2013 - Still will be a relatively young team

2014 - The FIRST year in what will hopefully be MANY MANY to come that they will field a team that is experienced team and the term "young" can stop being employed.

 

[Killjoy]

I don't disagree, but at some point, the mantra starts to sound like an excuse (much like the Twins "we're a small market team" line). I'd sooner Kill said something like, "We're going to play disciplined, hard-nosed football and anyone who plays us is going to know they've been in a game. The results will be what the results will be."

I much prefer that Kill talks about what it is going to take to get better than hearing Mason talk about why he couldn't recruit here in Minnesota or the other negatives as to why he couldn't win in Minnesota. Kill may point out certain realities that to some sound like excuses but he then says it up to the coaches to make this team better. What I also find refreshing about Kill is, if there is a problem, he does everything he can to solve it. When he gets up in the morning his goal is to build a stronger program and a better team step by step. This isn't the behavior of a whiner but of guy that is driven to win. The real whiners here seems to me are often the fans, not coach Kill. It is all in one's perspective.

 

[Tim Riggins]

Or it tells me that Kill wanted to wait a year before scheduling that caliber of game, which is what actually happened.

That makes too much sense for some people and doesn't help their agenda.

Just using one position as an example, would you rather your new starting middle linebacker get his feet wet against, UNC or NMSU?

 

[wait!what?]

I think you may be discounting JK's own words after TCU was added to the schedule.

 

[50PoundHead]

I much prefer that Kill talks about what it is going to take to get better than hearing Mason talk about why he couldn't recruit here in Minnesota or the other negatives as to why he couldn't win in Minnesota. Kill may point out certain realities that to some sound like excuses but he then says it up to the coaches to make this team better. What I also find refreshing about Kill is, if there is a problem, he does everything he can to solve it. When he gets up in the morning his goal is to build a stronger program and a better team step by step. This isn't the behavior of a whiner but of guy that is driven to win. The real whiners here seems to me are often the fans, not coach Kill. It is all in one's perspective.

Again, I don't disagree.

 

[Dr.Don]

I don't disagree, but at some point, the mantra starts to sound like an excuse (much like the Twins "we're a small market team" line). I'd sooner Kill said something like, "We're going to play disciplined, hard-nosed football and anyone who plays us is going to know they've been in a game. The results will be what the results will be."

He's already said that several times, but if he says it too many times then commentors will complain about him saying it too often. Coach can't win by saying anything at all, and then if he said nothing, commentors would complain that he doesn't say enough.

 

[Killjoy]

He's already said that several times, but if he says it too many times then commentors will complain about him saying it too often. Coach can't win by saying anything at all, and then if he said nothing, commentors would complain that he doesn't say enough.

Dr.Don - Thanks for the laugh and explanation. Another way of saying it is no matter what you say you are going to piss somebody off.