Seth Green in Year Zero

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short ornery norwegian said:
that's what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that Fleck is "trying to lose." All I'm saying is this: IF Croft is injured, and IF that injury hampers his ability to run, then I would rather see a healthy Rhoda, or even a healthy Green out there instead of an injured Croft. Look, Green could stink on ice for all I know - but he's on the team, he's practiced all year, and he presumably knows the offense. So IF Croft is injured, let Green try, or put Rhoda back in before you put an injured player out there who may not be able to perform at 100%.
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How many times did Leidner play the last several years with a lower body injury that limited his running ability?
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that's what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that Fleck is "trying to lose." All I'm saying is this: IF Croft is injured, and IF that injury hampers his ability to run, then I would rather see a healthy Rhoda, or even a healthy Green out there instead of an injured Croft. Look, Green could stink on ice for all I know - but he's on the team, he's practiced all year, and he presumably knows the offense. So IF Croft is injured, let Green try, or put Rhoda back in before you put an injured player out there who may not be able to perform at 100%.
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Sounds so simple. Really a head scratcher as to why they didn't do that.
 

The best reason to keep an injured running QB out there against a great B1G rushing defense is to hurt him really bad. This coaching staff has failed miserably to identify talent, put them in the right position, AND to coach them up. Year zero.

Maybe coach is right when he repeatedly tells the players they aren't very good. A real morale boost.
 

diehard said:
The best reason to keep an injured running QB out there against a great B1G rushing defense is to hurt him really bad. This coaching staff has failed miserably to identify talent, put them in the right position, AND to coach them up. Year zero.

Maybe coach is right when he repeatedly tells the players they aren't very good. A real morale boost.
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This is what people actually believe???
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that's what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that Fleck is "trying to lose." All I'm saying is this: IF Croft is injured, and IF that injury hampers his ability to run, then I would rather see a healthy Rhoda, or even a healthy Green out there instead of an injured Croft. Look, Green could stink on ice for all I know - but he's on the team, he's practiced all year, and he presumably knows the offense. So IF Croft is injured, let Green try, or put Rhoda back in before you put an injured player out there who may not be able to perform at 100%.
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I agree with some of this. But I think that sometimes what a team needs in a game is a spark. Putting in a new QB is one way to do that. I think that some coach's insecurities prevent them from doing that.
 


diehard said:
The best reason to keep an injured running QB out there against a great B1G rushing defense is to hurt him really bad. This coaching staff has failed miserably to identify talent, put them in the right position, AND to coach them up. Year zero.

Maybe coach is right when he repeatedly tells the players they aren't very good. A real morale boost.
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Yeah, I agree.

But maybe he has a super hyperr how reason for what he sees.
 

A lot of theories here on how the coach is making wrong decisions.

Each of these could be explored and argued with great detail but in the end I don't think we have enough good healthy players to consistently win.
 

Please, quit with the talk of Green transferring out. He’s a redshirt freshman.

There is no shame in a redshirt freshman not being ready. We need all the QBs on this roster we can get in hope that one of them can put it together.
 

Yeah, Whatever. I will be forced to go to this vadger game because my "acquaintances", not friends, lol, will force me to partake. PJ, I've shredded you for your boneheaded moves this year. And legitimately so I think. So please, It's year 1 now, not year 0. Beat the skunks and shut them up. I am embarrassed that they live in Minnesota...but they do. Close the border.
 



Help me out...Rhoda beats out Croft. We crush Oregon State. Rhoda, Essentially is christened as the leader of the team by PJ. Croft gets suspended unlike most anyone I've heard...he can't practice with the team, he can't be in the building, he's officially not part of the team, not welcome.
Rhoda is the Gopher quarterback. We spend an entire game repeatedly running the read option with Rhoda but PJ explains after the game he told Rhoda he can't run because he doesn't want him to get hurt because we have no backups. So PJ? Why run the read option over and over? The game is a disaster because of unexplainable play calling, even in light of the revelation Rhoda had orders not to run.
Croft somehow miraculously transforms his life...he not only returns part of the team, now, he is the new leader...yes, taking over as the new leader of the team after not practicing, studying football, talking to the coaches, for a couple weeks, it becomes his team. Demry sets a record for rushing yardage as a Gopher QB running the read option vs Nebraska. We crush Nebraska.
We go to Northwestern, despite what some of you say...we don't run the read option vs Northwestern...we don't even present the threat of it. PJ explains that with the revelation that Croft was playing injured so he couldn't run.
Now if anyone at all thinks that somehow this all makes sense, you must be blind or getting paid by Coyle. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
You put the team and two quarterbacks in positions where they can't succeed. You tell one guy he can't run because you are afraid he'll get hurt. You tell the other guy not to run because he is already playing hurt. All the while the backup QB is healthy in each case. So many questions. Nobody really would play to lose would they? How do you explain the contrast of how we do things from one game to the next? What is the logic of these unbelievable decisions and explanations and suspensions and year zero and telling anyone who will listen we have bad players?
 

60's Guy said:
Help me out...Rhoda beats out Croft. We crush Oregon State. Rhoda, Essentially is christened as the leader of the team by PJ. Croft gets suspended unlike most anyone I've heard...he can't practice with the team, he can't be in the building, he's officially not part of the team, not welcome.
Rhoda is the Gopher quarterback. We spend an entire game repeatedly running the read option with Rhoda but PJ explains after the game he told Rhoda he can't run because he doesn't want him to get hurt because we have no backups. So PJ? Why run the read option over and over? The game is a disaster because of unexplainable play calling, even in light of the revelation Rhoda had orders not to run.
Croft somehow miraculously transforms his life...he not only returns part of the team, now, he is the new leader...yes, taking over as the new leader of the team after not practicing, studying football, talking to the coaches, for a couple weeks, it becomes his team. Demry sets a record for rushing yardage as a Gopher QB running the read option vs Nebraska. We crush Nebraska.
We go to Northwestern, despite what some of you say...we don't run the read option vs Northwestern...we don't even present the threat of it. PJ explains that with the revelation that Croft was playing injured so he couldn't run.
Now if anyone at all thinks that somehow this all makes sense, you must be blind or getting paid by Coyle. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
You put the team and two quarterbacks in positions where they can't succeed. You tell one guy he can't run because you are afraid he'll get hurt. You tell the other guy not to run because he is already playing hurt. All the while the backup QB is healthy in each case. So many questions. Nobody really would play to lose would they? How do you explain the contrast of how we do things from one game to the next? What is the logic of these unbelievable decisions and explanations and suspensions and year zero and telling anyone who will listen we have bad players?
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I thought you used to coach football? If the quarterback doesn't have the option to run, it's not called read option. Why aren't the GA's playing offensive line again?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
How many times did Leidner play the last several years with a lower body injury that limited his running ability?
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He played nearly an entire season with an injured foot most people couldn't walk on. What's your point? One situation has nothing to do with the other.
 

grumps said:
A lot of theories here on how the coach is making wrong decisions.

Each of these could be explored and argued with great detail but in the end I don't think we have enough good healthy players to consistently win.
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This is obvioulsy the biggest problem with the team
 



Johnnyboy18 said:
I thought you used to coach football? If the quarterback doesn't have the option to run, it's not called read option. Why aren't the GA's playing offensive line again?
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Excellent Johnny. I'll mark you down as on the payroll.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
that's what I'm saying. I am NOT saying that Fleck is "trying to lose." All I'm saying is this: IF Croft is injured, and IF that injury hampers his ability to run, then I would rather see a healthy Rhoda, or even a healthy Green out there instead of an injured Croft. Look, Green could stink on ice for all I know - but he's on the team, he's practiced all year, and he presumably knows the offense. So IF Croft is injured, let Green try, or put Rhoda back in before you put an injured player out there who may not be able to perform at 100%.
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And for all you people that think this way....don't you think the coaches evaluated their options leading up to the game in terms of which guy should play? Do you really think they said, "well Croft can't move as well as usual but let's just play him anyway because it is year zero and we don't care about the players or winning. I mean sure if we play Green or Rhoda we might win the game but we don't care about that foolishness, it will make us look so much better down the line".

They spend the whole week leading up to the game with the players going through meetings and practices, they have been working with them all season. They know the players at this point and what they are capable of and more importantly what they are not capable of.

If I had to guess I would say that Green isn't even in the picture at QB right now outside of an emergency, Morgan isn't an option at this point in the year due to redshirting, so it comes down to a choice between Croft and Rhoda. Even at less then 100% they probably felt there wasn't enough advantage in going with Rhoda over Croft to make the switch. But they aren't just making this decision on their feelings or best guesses the way fans are. They are making their decisions based on hours and hours spent with the players.

But clearly they are wrong, fans always know better in regards to who should play. Me personally, I am willing to trust the guys that work with the players, felt that way about personnel decisions under Mason, Brewster and Kill as well. As I said before, last year many were wondering why they didn't try anyone else at QB, the assumption by many was that it couldn't be worse and my take on it was always that it absolutely could be and the coaches had their reasons to keep on running Mitch out there.

Coaches will make mistakes of course but especially when it comes to the QB position I will put my faith in them knowing which guy gives them the best chance to win.
 

60's Guy said:
Help me out...Rhoda beats out Croft. We crush Oregon State. Rhoda, Essentially is christened as the leader of the team by PJ. Croft gets suspended unlike most anyone I've heard...he can't practice with the team, he can't be in the building, he's officially not part of the team, not welcome.
Rhoda is the Gopher quarterback. We spend an entire game repeatedly running the read option with Rhoda but PJ explains after the game he told Rhoda he can't run because he doesn't want him to get hurt because we have no backups. So PJ? Why run the read option over and over? The game is a disaster because of unexplainable play calling, even in light of the revelation Rhoda had orders not to run.
Croft somehow miraculously transforms his life...he not only returns part of the team, now, he is the new leader...yes, taking over as the new leader of the team after not practicing, studying football, talking to the coaches, for a couple weeks, it becomes his team. Demry sets a record for rushing yardage as a Gopher QB running the read option vs Nebraska. We crush Nebraska.
We go to Northwestern, despite what some of you say...we don't run the read option vs Northwestern...we don't even present the threat of it. PJ explains that with the revelation that Croft was playing injured so he couldn't run.
Now if anyone at all thinks that somehow this all makes sense, you must be blind or getting paid by Coyle. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
You put the team and two quarterbacks in positions where they can't succeed. You tell one guy he can't run because you are afraid he'll get hurt. You tell the other guy not to run because he is already playing hurt. All the while the backup QB is healthy in each case. So many questions. Nobody really would play to lose would they? How do you explain the contrast of how we do things from one game to the next? What is the logic of these unbelievable decisions and explanations and suspensions and year zero and telling anyone who will listen we have bad players?
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+1
 

60's Guy said:
He played nearly an entire season with an injured foot most people couldn't walk on. What's your point? One situation has nothing to do with the other.
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So gutsy. It was a miracle he could even lace up his shoe.


qbrunn.jpg
 

60's Guy said:
Help me out...Rhoda beats out Croft. We crush Oregon State. Rhoda, Essentially is christened as the leader of the team by PJ. Croft gets suspended unlike most anyone I've heard...he can't practice with the team, he can't be in the building, he's officially not part of the team, not welcome.
Rhoda is the Gopher quarterback. We spend an entire game repeatedly running the read option with Rhoda but PJ explains after the game he told Rhoda he can't run because he doesn't want him to get hurt because we have no backups. So PJ? Why run the read option over and over? The game is a disaster because of unexplainable play calling, even in light of the revelation Rhoda had orders not to run.
Croft somehow miraculously transforms his life...he not only returns part of the team, now, he is the new leader...yes, taking over as the new leader of the team after not practicing, studying football, talking to the coaches, for a couple weeks, it becomes his team. Demry sets a record for rushing yardage as a Gopher QB running the read option vs Nebraska. We crush Nebraska.
We go to Northwestern, despite what some of you say...we don't run the read option vs Northwestern...we don't even present the threat of it. PJ explains that with the revelation that Croft was playing injured so he couldn't run.
Now if anyone at all thinks that somehow this all makes sense, you must be blind or getting paid by Coyle. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
You put the team and two quarterbacks in positions where they can't succeed. You tell one guy he can't run because you are afraid he'll get hurt. You tell the other guy not to run because he is already playing hurt. All the while the backup QB is healthy in each case. So many questions. Nobody really would play to lose would they? How do you explain the contrast of how we do things from one game to the next? What is the logic of these unbelievable decisions and explanations and suspensions and year zero and telling anyone who will listen we have bad players?
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Just to clarify, I'm extremely high on PJ Fleck and I think that he has an opportunity to turn the program into something to be proud about, however, I totally agree with what you are saying. It is very puzzling how this entire season has played out. Im on the side though that QB is really not the problem. Play calling is questionable, and the WR's are questionable. It wouldn't matter if we had Rhoda, Croft, or Green in there. Whoever is the QB, as a coach you need to set that player/team up to succeed. There should be a big difference in the type of plays you are calling for a Croft/Green game compared to a Rhoda game.
 

SM_25 said:
Just to clarify, I'm extremely high on PJ Fleck and I think that he has an opportunity to turn the program into something to be proud about, however, I totally agree with what you are saying. It is very puzzling how this entire season has played out. Im on the side though that QB is really not the problem. Play calling is questionable, and the WR's are questionable. It wouldn't matter if we had Rhoda, Croft, or Green in there. Whoever is the QB, as a coach you need to set that player/team up to succeed. There should be a big difference in the type of plays you are calling for a Croft/Green game compared to a Rhoda game.
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Totally agree with you! Even regarding PJ... he has done it. And some weeks there is evidence he will again. The play calling is unimaginative and unexplainable...and nobody on the field seems to be able to catch the ball.
 

60's Guy said:
He played nearly an entire season with an injured foot most people couldn't walk on. What's your point? One situation has nothing to do with the other.
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So when Kill/Claeys were running Leidner out there game after game when he was injured, it was because Leidner was tough and gutsy and a leader.

When PJ does the same thing, it's because he doesn't care about the players and is trying to get them seriously injured. No one had any clue Croft was injured until Fleck mentioned it after the game. People who actually think Fleck is purposely trying to hurt players and run them off the team is completely delusional.

Croft is playing because he is the best option. The same reason why Leidner continued to play most of his career with injuries.
 


I think this thread is missing the forest through the trees. Croft is better than Green. OK. But, when PJ gave up winning this game (we all saw the 4th & 5 punt, we know the moment he gave up) why did he continue to play an injured player? At that point who cares who is better - take the injured player out. This is a trend now with PJ - the guy who cares so much about his players.... well, some of them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
So when Kill/Claeys were running Leidner out there game after game when he was injured, it was because Leidner was tough and gutsy and a leader.

When PJ does the same thing, it's because he doesn't care about the players and is trying to get them seriously injured. No one had any clue Croft was injured until Fleck mentioned it after the game. People who actually think Fleck is purposely trying to hurt players and run them off the team is completely delusional.

Croft is playing because he is the best option. The same reason why Leidner continued to play most of his career with injuries.
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For all the bad things said about Leidner on this board, I don't think anyone would argue that Leidner wasn't tough and gutsy.

I think the point people are trying to make is the fact that if we showed we could have success with the read option, why would we leave a QB in the game that is unable to run. If your qb is hurt that hampers your ability to throw on the run, run your read option, and allows the defense to dictate what you are going to do.

Its pretty clear right now why Leidner didn't get taken out of any games. He was clearly ahead of all the QB's on the roster. I'll admit I was one of those people who wanted to see Croft replace Leidner when he was here, but I didn't get to see the QB's compete every day. Is it safe to say that the QB's on this roster are all pretty similar in on the field performance. Which is the reason you would think a coach might think about making a switch to make sure the QB doesn't get hurt more than he already is.
 

Random half-baked thoughts: 1) The coaches do indeed get to see players perform more than fans do. I guess it can be argued that they have no reason to believe that players will preform any different in a game than they do in practice. On the other hand, no one can know how someone will perform in games unless they get to play in games. I only care about how they perform in games. I wish that more QB;s would get a chance. I know that Spurrier was unafraid to yank QB's when things were not going well. I like that he would do that, not sure what it does for the player's long term confidence, but when a team needs a spark, I say, make a change. 2) I'm a bit concerned about Croft. As athletic as his is, he has no pocket presence and cannot use his speed and quickness to avoid the rush. He has no feel for the pass rush - does not know how to slide in the pocket, or when to take off and run. He just stands there until he gets sacked. No sure that these things can be taught, they either have it or they don't. What would it hurt to try someone else (even for a series or two)?
 

Regarding some good points...
As for what a QB does in "practice, we talkin' 'bout practice," I distinctly recall Jacques Perra outplaying everyone in spring games but never seeing the field.
And could we stop blaming the receivers please. When Drew Brees started out at Purdue, he made some nondescript wideouts into top conference performers- which is what good QBs do.
I don't know if Seth Green is even close to being a game changing QB, but I DO KNOW that Croft and Rhoda aren't...so why not give the kid his shot? He came back home to live out this dream and what a story the hometown hero beating Bucky would make...
 

"Croft, and the threat he poses as a ball-runner, gives MN the best chance to keep the game even into the fourth quarter."

Have you not watched any Border Battles in the last 20 years? They go like this... Badgers stack the d-line, stop the run, force our QBs to make plays- game over.
If we don't find a mobilty based passing game by Saturday- something perhaps Green can offer- well, the result will be all too predictable.
 

milfoil said:
And could we stop blaming the receivers please. When Drew Brees started out at Purdue, he made some nondescript wideouts into top conference performers- which is what good QBs do.
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It’s now very obvious you haven’t watched a game
 

denguegopher said:
Random half-baked thoughts: 1) The coaches do indeed get to see players perform more than fans do. I guess it can be argued that they have no reason to believe that players will preform any different in a game than they do in practice. On the other hand, no one can know how someone will perform in games unless they get to play in games. I only care about how they perform in games. I wish that more QB;s would get a chance. I know that Spurrier was unafraid to yank QB's when things were not going well. I like that he would do that, not sure what it does for the player's long term confidence, but when a team needs a spark, I say, make a change. 2) I'm a bit concerned about Croft. As athletic as his is, he has no pocket presence and cannot use his speed and quickness to avoid the rush. He has no feel for the pass rush - does not know how to slide in the pocket, or when to take off and run. He just stands there until he gets sacked. No sure that these things can be taught, they either have it or they don't. What would it hurt to try someone else (even for a series or two)?
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Excellent points. One of the things that hasn't been brought up (I haven't read every post word for word) is the fact that each game is scouted by the next opponent. When you have a one-dimensional QB who's playbook is simple, it's much easier to scout and make adjustments. NW has a very good Defense - we made them look excellent because of our more simplistic offensive scheme. Plus, you get several dropped passes and the entire offensive play spins downward fast.
 


milfoil said:
Regarding some good points...
As for what a QB does in "practice, we talkin' 'bout practice," I distinctly recall Jacques Perra outplaying everyone in spring games but never seeing the field.
And could we stop blaming the receivers please. When Drew Brees started out at Purdue, he made some nondescript wideouts into top conference performers- which is what good QBs do.
I don't know if Seth Green is even close to being a game changing QB, but I DO KNOW that Croft and Rhoda aren't...so why not give the kid his shot? He came back home to live out this dream and what a story the hometown hero beating Bucky would make...
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Totally agree that Croft and Rhoda have major flaws, and yet they appear to be significantly ahead of Green on the depth chart. Some fans look at that and say, it can't be worse, put Green out there and see what happens.

Last year a lot of us were saying, it can't be worse, put Croft or Rhoda out there and see what happens. I will totally agree that our play at QB has been subpar (stone handed receivers have not helped, and yes they absolutely deserve some of the blame for all the dropped balls). The previous staff did a horrible job recruiting the QB and WR positions, time will tell if Fleck can change that but right now they are working with what was left and it wasn't much at those spots.
 

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