Richard & Tubby Through 6 Seasons: A Follow-Up Comparison

[SelectionSunday]

I posted these numbers prior to the season, and promised I would update them after the completion of the 2018-19 season. At this moment Tubby Smith and Richard Pitino both have coached the same amount of seasons (6) at the University of Minnesota, so I thought it would be a worthwhile comparison.

Please note, THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR EITHER TUBBY OR RICHARD! IT IS SIMPLY A COMPARISON. FULL DISCLOSURE. ... I FULLY ENDORSE KEEPING RICHARD. DO NOT GET YOUR UNDIES IN A BUNDLE IF ANY OF THESE NUMBERS DON'T SAY WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO SAY. THIS ISN'T ABOUT TRAJECTORY OF THE PROGRAM, RECRUITING, OR ANYTHING ELSE. THE NUMBERS ARE THE NUMBERS.

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers: 29-53 (35.4%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers: 26-55 (32.1%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 16-20 (44.4%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 12-19 (38.7%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road: 7-25 (21.9%)
Tubby Smith vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road: 4-24 (14.3%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Neutral
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Neutral: 9-9 (50%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Neutral: 7-11 (38.9%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road & Neutral Combined
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road & Neutral Combined: 13-33 (28.3%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road & Neutral Combined: 14-36 (28%)

Regular Season Record vs. Big Ten Opponents
Tubby: 46-62 (42.6%)
Richard: 40-70 (36.4%)

Big Ten Tournament Record
Tubby: 7-6 (53.8%)
Richard: 5-6 (45.5%)

Semifinals or Better Big Ten Tournament Appearances
Tubby (2): 2008 semifinals, 2010 championship game
Richard (2): 2017 semifinals, 2019 semifinals

NCAA Tournament Appearances/Record
Tubby: 3/1-3 (25%)
Richard: 2/1-2 (33.3%)

Looking forward to the 2019-20 season!

 

[Sparlimb]

I think the difference at this point is Richard is still you and we hope he's finding his way. Tubby was near his prime when he was here and things weren't moving in a positive direction. He did better with the players he inherited than the ones he recruited. But the numbers don't lie, Richard is not doing better. Neither are what we'd hope for...

 

[JimmyJamesMD]

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 16-20 (44.4%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 12-19 (38.7%)

This bugs me the most. We should not have losing records vs NCAA qualifiers at home. This isnt even vs Top 25.

 

[mnhoopboy]

This just tells me that this isn't as easy a job as some would like to believe. Simply thinking you can "plug and play" the next hot name isn't always the fix. A future HOF coach struggled to win here consistently. I'm in favor of giving a 36 year old head coach in the toughest conference in America more time to get things figured out. This year was a good first step.

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[bleedsmaroonandgold]

The biggest takeaway for me isnt how those two compare to each other. It is how embarrassingly bad both sets of numbers are.

 

[SelectionSunday]

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 16-20 (44.4%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 12-19 (38.7%)

This bugs me the most. We should not have losing records vs NCAA qualifiers at home. This isnt even vs Top 25.

I'm with you on this, Jimmy. My big thing now is protecting the home court. It is no longer that difficult to win at Williams Arena. We need to get that back.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I'm with you on this, Jimmy. My big thing now is protecting the home court. It is no longer that difficult to win at Williams Arena. We need to get that back.

What are there conference home records - all conference opponents? Is it true that Pitino is sub .500 in home Big Ten games?

 

[Marooned]

I'm a Pitino fan and I was a Tubby fan, so not attempting to flame one or the other in any way. One thing I'd point out is that Pitino, at 36, isn't all that far from a future HOF coach's results here. I think that says something as well. Undoubtedly, Pitino has made some errors, but I also believe he'll improve. Hiring a coach in his early 30s was a risk and I think nobody felt it wouldn't come with at least a few bumps along the road. I think the next year or two should tell us if he's learning from his mistakes or not.

 

[e.bigelow]

I'm a Pitino fan and I was a Tubby fan, so not attempting to flame one or the other in any way. One thing I'd point out is that Pitino, at 36, isn't all that far from a future HOF coach's results here. I think that says something as well. Undoubtedly, Pitino has made some errors, but I also believe he'll improve. Hiring a coach in his early 30s was a risk and I think nobody felt it wouldn't come with at least a few bumps along the road. I think the next year or two should tell us if he's learning from his mistakes or not.

Agree with this. Especially the bold.

 

[bga1]

What are there conference home records - all conference opponents? Is it true that Pitino is sub .500 in home Big Ten games?

28-27 at home in conference. Not real good. We need to be much better at home.

 

[bga1]

I'm a Pitino fan and I was a Tubby fan, so not attempting to flame one or the other in any way. One thing I'd point out is that Pitino, at 36, isn't all that far from a future HOF coach's results here. I think that says something as well. Undoubtedly, Pitino has made some errors, but I also believe he'll improve. Hiring a coach in his early 30s was a risk and I think nobody felt it wouldn't come with at least a few bumps along the road. I think the next year or two should tell us if he's learning from his mistakes or not.

I think builtbadgers has noted that he now has the best coaching assistant staff he has had. I think where it showed up was a better focus on defense. By the second half of the Big Ten season, save for a couple of bad games, we played sound defense. If we can have that as a staple and add better players, we will continue to make progress.

 

[The Bubble]

One thing that I would be curious on is the last three years of each of their tenures. I think Tubby crushed Richard first 3 years of each respective tenures but I think that probably flips to Pitino for the last 3 years of their tenures. Which going forward hopefully shows momentum which is the difference between why Tubby was fired and Pitino is not for similar 6 year results especially when people lump them together and cry why one was fired and one isn’t.

 

[cjbfbp]

Tubby was near his prime when he was here and things weren't moving in a positive direction.

I would say that he was on the downward slope of his career while he was here.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

This just tells me that this isn't as easy a job as some would like to believe. Simply thinking you can "plug and play" the next hot name isn't always the fix. A future HOF coach struggled to win here consistently. I'm in favor of giving a 36 year old head coach in the toughest conference in America more time to get things figured out. This year was a good first step.

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partially agree. Not easy - but not impossible either. Dutcher had good teams at MN. Clem had good teams at MN (remember, his scandals were not recruiting-related, so he wasn't cheating to get players into school - just to keep them eligible). Tubby had some decent teams at MN.

It can be done. it just seems like the program has a hard time sustaining a level of play. a lot of peaks and valleys over the years, punctuated by off-court issues.

I'm not one who says or demands that the Gophers should be contending for a B1G title every year. But I would like to see a program that is a little more consistent - maybe in the top half of the conference every year, with the occasional run at a top 3 spot or a run in the conference tournament.

 

[cjbfbp]

One thing that I would be curious on is the last three years of each of their tenures. I think Tubby crushed Richard first 3 years of each respective tenures but I think that probably flips to Pitino for the last 3 years of their tenures. Which going forward hopefully shows momentum which is the difference between why Tubby was fired and Pitino is not for similar 6 year results especially when people lump them together and cry why one was fired and one isn’t.

Pitino has had three good years (to various degrees) and three bad years (to various degrees). Two of his bad years were within the first three years but so was one of his good years. Two of his good years were in the last three years but so was one of his bad years. I don't think there is enough evidence here to discern a clear trend.

Pitino faces a pretty big challenge moving forward in the off-season and next year. He is losing one of the very best Minnesota players of this century and some others who were significant contributors. We don't know for sure yet who else, if anyone, will leave from this team (I'm not sold on Washington's assurances yet and it's not impossible that Coffey could leave). Pitino needs multiple quality bodies to assemble a competitive roster. If Pitino has another decent to good season next year, then maybe we can say there is a trend.

 

[cjbfbp]

I'm not one who says or demands that the Gophers should be contending for a B1G title every year. But I would like to see a program that is a little more consistent - maybe in the top half of the conference every year, with the occasional run at a top 3 spot or a run in the conference tournament.

Top half of the conference "every year" would be more than a "little more consistent." That would be a whole lot more consistent. If you look at the last five years, I believe only Michigan State and Purdue have accomplished that feat.

 

[Gopherbbdude]

One thing that I would be curious on is the last three years of each of their tenures. I think Tubby crushed Richard first 3 years of each respective tenures but I think that probably flips to Pitino for the last 3 years of their tenures. Which going forward hopefully shows momentum which is the difference between why Tubby was fired and Pitino is not for similar 6 year results especially when people lump them together and cry why one was fired and one isn’t.

I'd even go one better and compare Tubbys top 3 years vs Richards to 3 years. that 2017/2018 season was a stat killer

 

[hungan1]

IMHO, Richard Pitino is a very affable person. That plus his youth will buy him more time. He has a lot of up ceiling. I have nothing against Tubby, but he is from an older generation. Like someone has said here he is in the twilight of his career. It is tough to recruit to MN as Tubby has found out unless you find a way to win a Big Ten title.

The longer Pitino stays here the more difficult it will be to uproot his family. I think his wife and kids are becoming very Minnesotan. Right now, he has a long leash from Mark Coyle. However, he needs to show progress every year or the tide will turn on him.

Let's hope he becomes successful here and stay for the long term.

 

[GopherLady]

I posted these numbers prior to the season, and promised I would update them after the completion of the 2018-19 season. At this moment Tubby Smith and Richard Pitino both have coached the same amount of seasons (6) at the University of Minnesota, so I thought it would be a worthwhile comparison.

Please note, THIS IS NOT AN ENDORSEMENT FOR EITHER TUBBY OR RICHARD! IT IS SIMPLY A COMPARISON. FULL DISCLOSURE. ... I FULLY ENDORSE KEEPING RICHARD. DO NOT GET YOUR UNDIES IN A BUNDLE IF ANY OF THESE NUMBERS DON'T SAY WHAT YOU WANT THEM TO SAY. THIS ISN'T ABOUT TRAJECTORY OF THE PROGRAM, RECRUITING, OR ANYTHING ELSE. THE NUMBERS ARE THE NUMBERS.

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers: 29-53 (35.4%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers: 26-55 (32.1%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 16-20 (44.4%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Home: 12-19 (38.7%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road: 7-25 (21.9%)
Tubby Smith vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road: 4-24 (14.3%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Neutral
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Neutral: 9-9 (50%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Neutral: 7-11 (38.9%)

Record vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road & Neutral Combined
Tubby vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road & Neutral Combined: 13-33 (28.3%)
Richard vs. NCAA Qualifiers/Road & Neutral Combined: 14-36 (28%)

Regular Season Record vs. Big Ten Opponents
Tubby: 46-62 (42.6%)
Richard: 40-70 (36.4%)

Big Ten Tournament Record
Tubby: 7-6 (53.8%)
Richard: 5-6 (45.5%)

Semifinals or Better Big Ten Tournament Appearances
Tubby (2): 2008 semifinals, 2010 championship game
Richard (2): 2017 semifinals, 2019 semifinals

NCAA Tournament Appearances/Record
Tubby: 3/1-3 (25%)
Richard: 2/1-2 (33.3%)

Looking forward to the 2019-20 season!

I feel like you did something similar with Tubby and Monson, and they were really close too - and Monson had all those sanctions. Kind of crazy.

 

[alchemy2u]

partially agree. Not easy - but not impossible either. Dutcher had good teams at MN. Clem had good teams at MN (remember, his scandals were not recruiting-related, so he wasn't cheating to get players into school - just to keep them eligible). Tubby had some decent teams at MN.

It can be done. it just seems like the program has a hard time sustaining a level of play. a lot of peaks and valleys over the years, punctuated by off-court issues.

I'm not one who says or demands that the Gophers should be contending for a B1G title every year. But I would like to see a program that is a little more consistent - maybe in the top half of the conference every year, with the occasional run at a top 3 spot or a run in the conference tournament.

But not in their first 5-6 years and they were experienced winning coach when they came here.


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[builtbadgers]

Tubby was done here. This was just a soft landing. Could care less what others did before Pitino, none of them were great. Lets aim to do what other programs have done by hiring great coaches who all got huge results by year 5. Does anyone honestly feel that Pitino will win the conference here ?

 

[KyGopherfan]

One thing is that the Big Ten was way tougher during Tubby's tenure. Tubby had to face some murderous Big Ten teams. And there wasn't a Rutgers either. There was a time during Tubby's time where nearly every team was stacked with elite point guards. You had Matta, Bo Ryan in the conference then. Even Illinois was good. If you account for the strength of the conference, Richard's stats dip even further.

 

[The Bubble]

Tubby was done here. This was just a soft landing. Could care less what others did before Pitino, none of them were great. Lets aim to do what other programs have done by hiring great coaches who all got huge results by year 5. Does anyone honestly feel that Pitino will win the conference here ?

If he can do it in the next 8 years he would have won one at a younger age than your love child Tony Bennett.

 

[BarnBurner]

Tubby was done here. This was just a soft landing. Could care less what others did before Pitino, none of them were great. Lets aim to do what other programs have done by hiring great coaches who all got huge results by year 5. Does anyone honestly feel that Pitino will win the conference here ?

1. Seems your "support" of Richard turns on and off like a light switch. Are you now(again) advocating for a new coach? If so, I will ask again - who is it (name names) that will come to MN ? History suggests this job is not very easy to fill.
2. Win the conference? How about win in March, in the dance.

Yet another example from our built .......

 

[cjbfbp]

1. Seems your "support" of Richard turns on and off like a light switch. Are you now(again) advocating for a new coach? If so, I will ask again - who is it (name names) that will come to MN ? History suggests this job is not very easy to fill.

.

This question was not addressed to me but I'll give my answer anyway. I'm not advocating for a different coach right now because I believe that Pitino has earned at least one more year (posted that after the Penn State win in the BT tournament).

Yes, this is one of the harder jobs to fill in the conference, but the job should be easier to fill now than it was for most of the program's recent history for two reasons:

1) The conference has its own national cable network and also has its games appearing regularly on other national cable networks (FS1 and the ESPN channels). This gives recruits tremendous exposure, allows their families to watch them regardless of where they live, and brings tremendous amounts of money to the conference schools.

2) The practice facilities have been upgraded to first class (even the Eagles were very impressed when using them before the Super Bowl).

If Nebraska can get Hoiberg, I don't see why this program can't get a coach of stature. PJ Fleck came here when he was one of the preeminent young football coaches in the nation.

 

[JimmyJamesMD]

Tubby was done here. This was just a soft landing. Could care less what others did before Pitino, none of them were great. Lets aim to do what other programs have done by hiring great coaches who all got huge results by year 5. Does anyone honestly feel that Pitino will win the conference here ?

Couldn't care less

 

[builtbadgers]

1. Seems your "support" of Richard turns on and off like a light switch. Are you now(again) advocating for a new coach? If so, I will ask again - who is it (name names) that will come to MN ? History suggests this job is not very easy to fill.
2. Win the conference? How about win in March, in the dance.

Yet another example from our built .......

Support for Pitino is on a issue by issue basis. Remember,it is opinion. Example- I like how he has handled IW, I like the talent he has recruited, but dislike all the shortcuts taken on character. I like the staff he has now, dislike never installing a identity, dislike the 40-70 conference record, the never contending in the conference in 6 years. In favor of replacing him if you can tell me who the new coach is that is better. That would require getting a top 50 coach to come here or discovering that unknown superstar coach.

 

[MinnGopher]

Tubby was done here. This was just a soft landing. Could care less what others did before Pitino, none of them were great. Lets aim to do what other programs have done by hiring great coaches who all got huge results by year 5. Does anyone honestly feel that Pitino will win the conference here ?

Why look away from previous indicators of success/failure from previous coaches and look around at the few teams that make a run once in awhile? I know everyone is different but I think you can pay a little respect to it. Its not like canning guys every 5-6 years has worked here.

It is hard for me to envision him winning conference here but it was also hard for me to see us beating Louisville and Purdue x2

 

[builtbadgers]

If he can do it in the next 8 years he would have won one at a younger age than your love child Tony Bennett.

If he ever does it it will be younger than Bennett as Bennett does not and will not ever coach in the Big 10. Your really not going to compare those two on something that will not even happen anywhere. Is that 40-70 record eating you up ? You do know Coyle would take Bennett right now over Pitino and that at the same age Bennett was winning 26 games and going to the Sweet 16 at Washington State ! Will save you the research on what the Pac 10 was like back then with UCLA having 3 straight final 4's, Arizona having Lute, Monty still in and Oregon loaded. It was not the conference you see now. Look at the players in the conference then. Do you think that Pitino ever wins the conference ? That was the question, i did not bring Bennett in , you did. The conversation is about Pitino !

 

[builtbadgers]

Why look away from previous indicators of success/failure from previous coaches and look around at the few teams that make a run once in awhile? I know everyone is different but I think you can pay a little respect to it. Its not like canning guys every 5-6 years has worked here.

It is hard for me to envision him winning conference here but it was also hard for me to see us beating Louisville and Purdue x2

Said i was in favor of keeping him unless there was a upgrade they could get. If he goes 8-12 next year i favor him being gone and will no longer support the program financially. There are a great many people who feel this this way. Your right about the every 5-6 years change but what it means to me is that we simply have not found the right guy .