Reggie Lynch In Jail ... UPDATE: Released without charges

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Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't know if you've ever managed an employee or raised a child.
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Yes I have... Many of the former a few of the later.
Bob_Loblaw said:
Mistakes happen. We all look at what was done before bringing in these players and how the coaches react to the situation. I can't really fault Pitino for any of that. However, at some point, the blame runs up. If you are the head of a department that is continuously underperforming and having continuous bad situations, eventually, the blame is on you. The blame is on you, even if the employees all looked good on paper. The blame is on you, even if you reprimanded those failed employees as best you could. Eventually, you're the head of the operation, it's on you.

I'm not sure if it's entirely fair or not, it's possible to just have a run of really bad luck. But in almost any management situation, the blame would start going to the manager at his point.
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Read my post and then read yours.

I didn't say Pitino shouldn't get any blame, I didn't even insinuate it.
 

Otis said:
It's multiple women? That's hard to do in a rape situation!
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Sure it's multiple women. We had the McNeil woman, the train gal and now this one (presumably a woman). All I'm say'in is let's put the blame on the women until we know more.
 

bga1 said:
On the flip side of the coin- regardless of where the decision came from- as soon as it became apparent that Dorsey wasn't turning over a new leaf- adios Kevin. Is there any doubt at all that this team has probably been lectured as much as any college team in America over that past few months about the issues that can arise over sexual conduct. And even if they hadn't been lectured (which you can be certain they were) - would it take a brain surgeon to figure out that anything less than good conduct would be severely and quickly punished by the coaches, administration and the media? These things don't happen as a result of a thought process occurring- they happen when the thought processes are not functioning, like when a kid is under the influence of drugs or alcohol. This ain't on the coaches- especially in the summer-it's on the kids. And we don't know what happened yet. This could be all on Lynch or it could be a Duke Lacrosse type of situation. We don't know.
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You are overcomplicating it. Yes, there is no doubt that they have been lectured more than anyone about respecting women/sexual abuse/etc. over the past few months. It probably started back with McNeil and ramped up quite a bit after the Threesome. And yet, with all that lecturing, you have yet another incident come up. It's clear that some of the players aren't listening to all of this lecturing. Heck, it's not even just lecturing, at this point all of them have seen with their own eyes a teammate suspended for doing something stupid or illegal involving a woman.

Here is the problem -- either the players aren't listening or the coaches aren't able to get their message through. Probably a combination of both. Both of those are major cultural issues. Culture starts at the top. Doesn't mean that all the blame falls on the leader, but he deserves some of it. Might be able to buy your argument if there were just one or two players who had stepped out of line, but we are way beyond that.

Look at the other major teams at the U. How many hockey or football players have been suspended for anything related to disrespecting women/sexual abuse/etc.? Doesn't even have to be something illegal, just has to have resulted in a suspension. You won't find very many, and that is with teams that are much larger than the basketball team. Why are these issue specific to the basketball team? Any intelligent answer to that question places some blame on the coaches.
 

GoodasGold said:
Sure it's multiple women. We had the McNeil woman, the train gal and now this one (presumably a woman). All I'm say'in is let's put the blame on the women until we know more.
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You obviously were not a women's studies major. It's not very Minnesotan to blame the fairer sex. Maybe she was unconscious and cannot remember the event. There is judicial precedent in that case.
 


New Gopher pre-season training video:
 


GoodasGold said:
Sure it's multiple women. We had the McNeil woman, the train gal and now this one (presumably a woman). All I'm say'in is let's put the blame on the women until we know more.
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Did something happen on the light rail?
 




Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't know if you've ever managed an employee or raised a child.

Mistakes happen. We all look at what was done before bringing in these players and how the coaches react to the situation. I can't really fault Pitino for any of that. However, at some point, the blame runs up. If you are the head of a department that is continuously underperforming and having continuous bad situations, eventually, the blame is on you. The blame is on you, even if the employees all looked good on paper. The blame is on you, even if you reprimanded those failed employees as best you could. Eventually, you're the head of the operation, it's on you.

I'm not sure if it's entirely fair or not, it's possible to just have a run of really bad luck. But in almost any management situation, the blame would start going to the manager at his point.
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Sure, this could happen to anyone. We're just having a bad run of 30-40 years.
 

bizzle22 said:
You are overcomplicating it. Yes, there is no doubt that they have been lectured more than anyone about respecting women/sexual abuse/etc. over the past few months. It probably started back with McNeil and ramped up quite a bit after the Threesome. And yet, with all that lecturing, you have yet another incident come up. It's clear that some of the players aren't listening to all of this lecturing. Heck, it's not even just lecturing, at this point all of them have seen with their own eyes a teammate suspended for doing something stupid or illegal involving a woman.

Here is the problem -- either the players aren't listening or the coaches aren't able to get their message through. Probably a combination of both. Both of those are major cultural issues. Culture starts at the top. Doesn't mean that all the blame falls on the leader, but he deserves some of it. Might be able to buy your argument if there were just one or two players who had stepped out of line, but we are way beyond that.

Look at the other major teams at the U. How many hockey or football players have been suspended for anything related to disrespecting women/sexual abuse/etc.? Doesn't even have to be something illegal, just has to have resulted in a suspension. You won't find very many, and that is with teams that are much larger than the basketball team. Why are these issue specific to the basketball team? Any intelligently answer to that question places some blame on the coaches.
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Weighing in on the cultural argument here. You are correct that culture starts at the top in an organization, but it begins long before the guys get to campus in their families, high schools and club teams. I can't speak specifically to where any of these guys come from, but in general elite basketball players are a very unaccountable bunch and the culture feeds it. Most of these guys have been wooed and recruited since they were middle schoolers and told they were just great. Egos grow and along with that comes the arrogance to believe that you can do anything on the court and off.

I know the father of a D-1 player from a generation ago whose son was a good young man, but who fumed at how his son was treated in "having everything handed to him" because he was a good ball player (borderline NBA). He never got in trouble or embarrassed his school, but the cultural environment did little to prepare him for adult life. He struggled when his career was over while his siblings without the hoops skills have all been successful because they had to work for it.

These cultural issues need to be addressed from the beginning, not just in a locker room at a high major institution. It's a no-brainer that they need to treat women with respect, but when they have been told they can have anything they want for a decade prior to getting to campus, the word "no" doesn't sink in easily. It's a poison we have created in a lot of places, but it is especially prominent in the sports culture. Someone needs to remind all these guys from an early age that commencement speech from a couple years ago that said, "You're not special." Better yet, maybe even remind them that true esteem comes from being a virtuous person and contributing member of the community and not their jump shot. As long as they are pampered and can help someone succeed or move up the career ladder, it will be hard to eradicate the poison.
 

Otis said:
You obviously were not a women's studies major. It's not very Minnesotan to blame the fairer sex. Maybe she was unconscious and cannot remember the event. There is judicial precedent in that case.
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Well, you're right about my major, but I can tell you I've done quite a bit of post-graduate work in women. It's interesting you speculate on the woman's unconscious state. Did you know that that is the go-to explanation for being unable to name the father (and thus allow collection of child support payments and reduce public $$) when girls sign up for AFDC? These rookies are actually coached by the veteran free-loaders: "tell 'em you were passed out, or were pulling a train". It's sad, but true!
 

I was referring to a CNN article about a 17 year old who was acquitted for rape because the girl in question was unable to remember weather she was in agreement with act and the act itself.

Black-out sex.

I remember wanting to cut my left arm off after having this happen to me in 1987.
 



MNGoldenGophers1 said:
Sure, this could happen to anyone. We're just having a bad run of 30-40 years.
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Football had a bad run of 30-40 years, but a majority of it was on the field. Men's Hoops has had off-court spill over to on-court.

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The ghost of Reid Travis appears again. Great kid. Natural leader. We lost big time on multiple levels not getting him. One wonders if having a high character guy like that who was also a good player would have helped in creating the culture that we all wish we had in the program.
 

Holy Man said:
The ghost of Reid Travis appears again. Great kid. Natural leader. We lost big time on multiple levels not getting him. One wonders if having a high character guy like that who was also a good player would have helped in creating the culture that we all wish we had in the program.
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Andre Hollins was like that, didn't stop McNeil. Were all accountable for our actions, if Reggie raped a girl that's on Reggie, he should've known better. With that said having reid Travis would be great because he is a good kid, smart and a good player to boot.
 

Ewert86PC said:
Football had a bad run of 30-40 years, but a majority of it was on the field. Men's Hoops has had off-court spill over to on-court.

Sent from my SM-N910V using Tapatalk
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I agree. I was talking specifically about basketball starting with the Mitch Lee episode up to today. In the case of football, I'd say we've had a run of back luck for 40-50 years.
 

Holy Man said:
The ghost of Reid Travis appears again. Great kid. Natural leader. We lost big time on multiple levels not getting him. One wonders if having a high character guy like that who was also a good player would have helped in creating the culture that we all wish we had in the program.
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lol.
 

bemidjigopher said:
Andre Hollins was like that, didn't stop McNeil. Were all accountable for our actions, if Reggie raped a girl that's on Reggie, he should've known better. With that said having reid Travis would be great because he is a good kid, smart and a good player to boot.
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Good point. All actions ultimately come down to the individual's decision, but the environment helps shape the decision making process. I would argue that McNeil's situation was probably more than just idiocy. To do what he did, the guy had major rage problems that were likely pretty deep and unrelated to basketball.
 

Both the Hollinses were excellent student athletes! Lots of good guys on the current team too.

Or maybe the recent "good guys" were better at covering their tracks, keeping tabs on their phones or actually were committed to their girlfriends/boyfriends exclusively.
 

Otis said:
Both the Hollinses were excellent student athletes! Lots of good guys on the current team too.

Or maybe the recent "good guys" were better at covering their tracks, keeping tabs on their phones or actually were committed to their girlfriends/boyfriends exclusively.
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Tubby made it clear he wanted to get high character guys. Perhaps it hurt his recruiting. The "Hollinses" are excellent examples of character.
 

Holy Man said:
Tubby made it clear he wanted to get high character guys. Perhaps it hurt his recruiting. The "Hollinses" are excellent examples of character.
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As are Trevor Mbakwe and Royce White.

(FWIW, I believe both should have played here. But don't act like Tubby recruited nothing but character when Trevor was accused of punching a woman and Royce of assaulting a security guard and stealing a laptop)
 

scher215 said:
As are Trevor Mbakwe and Royce White.

(FWIW, I believe both should have played here. But don't act like Tubby recruited nothing but character when Trevor was accused of punching a woman and Royce of assaulting a security guard and stealing a laptop)
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To be fair, Trevor seems to be an excellent example of the benefits of taking a chance. He has not had an ounce of trouble since the alleged incident and seems to be a stand-up guy and a loyal alumni.
 

Winnipegopher said:
To be fair, Trevor seems to be an excellent example of the benefits of taking a chance. He has not had an ounce of trouble since the alleged incident and seems to be a stand-up guy and a loyal alumni.
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Well, I'd hope not. He's 38 years old, for crying out loud.
 

Winnipegopher said:
To be fair, Trevor seems to be an excellent example of the benefits of taking a chance. He has not had an ounce of trouble since the alleged incident and seems to be a stand-up guy and a loyal alumni.
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Oh absolutely agree. I love Trevor and am so happy Tubby took him.

But many on this board would kill Pitino if he took the same guy. The troubling thing with Pitino is the volume of incidents and it happening on campus. But to pretend incidents are exclusive to Pitino and it was nothing but choir boys before him is naive. It can be debated the levels between the problems, but there were years with Tubby too where players were suspended, kicked off the team, etc.

I'm just looking for consistency :)
 

This isn't on anybody but Reggie. If you're going to rape a girl, you can't blame your coach, you can't blame the culture, it's on you. Every single person knows that rape is wrong. He has nobody to blame but himself if he did this.
 



scher215 said:
As are Trevor Mbakwe and Royce White.

(FWIW, I believe both should have played here. But don't act like Tubby recruited nothing but character when Trevor was accused of punching a woman and Royce of assaulting a security guard and stealing a laptop)
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Trevor's more serious indiscretion came before he ever joined the Gopher program. Yes, he was suspended while he was here, but it was because his case in Miami had not yet been resolved. (And the evidence in that case was shaky at best. Even the girl said she wasn't sure who it was in her initial interviews.) He pretty much stayed clean here, and appears to be a good working family man now. I went to high school with Trevor and played hoops with him for a year so I have a soft spot for him. Obviously people change over the years, but back then he was just just an abnormally large happy-go-lucky freshman. Wasn't the brightest bulb, but pretty harmless. Never saw anything violent in him even when practice got tense.

White was an idiot who was run out of town basically after one semester. He was worth the risk as a top 20 hometown recruit, but quickly proved that he didn't have the maturity yet (and still doesn't appear to have it) so we cut him loose. Could have kept him around, but he got a few chances here and blew them all so I didn't have a problem with letting him walk.
 

fraternity2017 said:
This isn't on anybody but Reggie. If you're going to rape a girl, you can't blame your coach, you can't blame the culture, it's on you. Every single person knows that rape is wrong. He has nobody to blame but himself if he did this.
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I think you are confusing the way that we are talking about blame. For the action of criminal sexual conduct itself (IF true) the blame is solely on Reggie Lynch and no one else. For the black eye that it gives to the Gopher basketball program (IF true) well that blame is more spread around.
 

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