Quarterback sneak. One thing I don't understand

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denguegopher said:
I've thought about this. My guess is that the chip would quickly be damaged by kicking, the ball hitting the ground and/or palyers diving for fumbles, etc.
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High levels of soccer use chips in the ball. A football would be fine. The issue is Home Depot is a major college football sponsor and all the chain for the chain gang comes from them.
 



Ski-U-Ham said:
You don't know what you don't know 😄

Kudos
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Airports are the best. Since I'm the only person looking up, I'll be the first to notice anything suspicious but of course that makes me suspicious. And so on...
 





LesBolstad said:
SC was crashing so hard from the edge with safeties there was a large possibility RB wouldn't make it to the LOS. Either had to pass or sneak.

I was actually on the field at the goal line and it appeared there was no doubt he broke the plain, we were all screaming at the side judge to rule TD and refused to do so. I thought PJ was going get a bench penalty he was going off on the officials so bad
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From a couple camera angles, it showed Brosmer's waist crossing the goal line before being piled on. It seemed so obvious. I thought he made it the previous down too.
 

After the UNC game, it felt like Fleck didn't trust this team to go and win.
After the USC game, completely the opposite.
This team must have gained his trust (time, consistency, proof).
 

Panthadad2 said:
From a couple camera angles, it showed Brosmer's waist crossing the goal line before being piled on. It seemed so obvious. I thought he made it the previous down too.
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From the TV angles it didn't look like a tough call at all. The ball was basically on the goal line already and there was a clear forward surge. Only thing I can assume is the refs are instructed not to make the call until they can actually see the ball or something like that.
 

jonnyganas said:
The chip in the ball does not track possession of the ball.
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Whether or not the ball tracks possession, being able to know the precise position on the field of the ball would be a huge benefit in replay. You could know with certainly whether and when the ball broke the plane of the goal line, and (for first down calls) the precise extent of forward progress.
 



bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Whether or not the ball tracks possession, being able to know the precise position on the field of the ball would be a huge benefit in replay. You could know with certainly whether and when the ball broke the plane of the goal line, and (for first down calls) the precise extent of forward progress.
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Well, say for example, if Brosmer lost control of the ball and fumbled it forward into the endzone under the pile. The chip would say the ball broke the plane, but it was not possessed by MN when it did.
 

LesBolstad said:
I was actually on the field at the goal line and it appeared there was no doubt he broke the plain, we were all screaming at the side judge to rule TD and refused to do so.
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Getting ready to streak?
 

jonnyganas said:
After the UNC game, it felt like Fleck didn't trust this team to go and win.
After the USC game, completely the opposite.
This team must have gained his trust (time, consistency, proof).
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D Taylor was not able to go in the UNC game. Having him in the line-up for USC certainly would increase my level of trust (in general not specifically on the TD/sneak).
 

MNVCGUY said:
I think damage would be less of an issue then the undertaking of getting the chip installed in the game balls that teams are using because they have a bunch of them getting shuttled on and off during the game and assume they go through many over the course of the season as well. Plus each team uses their own ball.

That said, I bet we are not all that far from something like this being a thing. Would help a ton with spotting the ball in those situations where you have to try and figure out where it is inside the mass of humanity.
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They do this in soccer already with VAR and goal line tech. Zero reason they can’t do this aside from money to install it
 


upnorthkid said:
They do this in soccer already with VAR and goal line tech. Zero reason they can’t do this aside from money to install it
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How would it affect the forward pass though? A tiny weight on one side might create wobbles out of spirals?
 

jonnyganas said:
Well, say for example, if Brosmer lost control of the ball and fumbled it forward into the endzone under the pile. The chip would say the ball broke the plane, but it was not possessed by MN when it did.
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Interesting point.
 

jonnyganas said:
Well, say for example, if Brosmer lost control of the ball and fumbled it forward into the endzone under the pile. The chip would say the ball broke the plane, but it was not possessed by MN when it did.
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I agree that it's not a silver bullet that would solve answer every question (including the situation you are describing). But there are lots of plays where every camera angle loses sight of the ball when it goes into the scrum, when they pull everyone off the ball is on the goal line and in the QBs arms, and you have a clear shot of when the QBs knee first hit the ground but no way of ascertaining whether the ball broke the plain before or after that. The chip could resolve that situation because you'd know exactly where in the scrum the ball was the instant the runner was down
 


GopherTheJugular said:
How would it affect the forward pass though? A tiny weight on one side might create wobbles out of spirals?
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Given it does not affect the flight of the soccer ball(I believe this is due to numerous chips planted and weighted) which behaves much more erratically, I don’t think this would be a significant issue
 

jonnyganas said:
Well, say for example, if Brosmer lost control of the ball and fumbled it forward into the endzone under the pile. The chip would say the ball broke the plane, but it was not possessed by MN when it did.
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Just allows you to have the exact moment, not an assumption and a stitch. The rest of it still requires sight lines and decision on possession of course, but it would eliminate about 99% of these and vastly speed up many replays
 

There's been several references to various technologies that could be implemented for spotting the ball or determining whether it crosses the goal line. Just a few clarifying comments and addtional info:
  • VAR in soccer is principally built on a 8-12 camera system, and a connected ball was also introduced recently which provides location data to the system. Importantly for soccer, the connected ball also provides inertia measurements, which allow the video assistant referees to check for things like hand ball and also precisely mark when a ball is played so they can determine offside calls. The connected ball technology is what drives the recent semi-automated offside technology. Soccer also uses a seven camera system to support goal line decisions. More here.
  • The NFL already puts a chip in the ball, but has yet to utilize it for marking ball placement. The NFL also puts chips on player equipment. You have likely seen videos of "the dots" on X or elsewhere. These are simple animations of the tracking technology.
  • Baseball uses the same camera company as soccer (and tennis) -- Hawk-Eye. The Hawk-Eye system in baseball now also supports markerless motion capture of biomechanic data. MLB has introduced animations of plays recorded with this biomechanic motion capture.
If football wants to replace referees as the spotters/markers, they'll need a system that integrates all of the above. Markerless motion capture will be central, because you have to determine when the runner is down before you can spot the ball. This is particularly tricky because more than one body part can be responsible for the runner being "down" and any camera-only system can be shielded from view by other players. Technology will likely take over in most of our lifetimes, but it seems further innovation will be required. Surely the NFL will get there first, so I would expect the NCAA to move playoff games to NFL stadiums to utilize the tech. Then the Power 4 conferences will likely install it. It's possible non-P4 schools never do because of expense and/or because they will seldom host a P4 opponent.
 

was thinking about this. If you put chips in the ball, they would need to be able to detect when any portion of the ball breaks the plane. ergo, if the chip is in the middle of the ball, would that detect the nose of the ball breaking the plane or not? would there need to be multiple chips in the ball?

mind you, I am all for technology being used IF it will be consistent and verifiable. but if it is not consistent and verifiable, then you're just substituting one argument for another.

on a completely different argument, in my book, I would rather go up to the goal line with a spread formation. make the defense spread out. then you just need one crack or seam in the line for a RB to pop through. no offense to QB's, but they are generally not the biggest, strongest or fastest players on the field. I trust a Darius Taylor to get one yard more than I trust Brosmer.
 

There are so few controversial goal line calls I can’t see the leagues ever making this a priority. Noticing holding, interference, neutral zone violations OTOH seems tailor-made for the existing automated camera systems and machine learning algorithms. Cameras aren’t blind…or biased.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
was thinking about this. If you put chips in the ball, they would need to be able to detect when any portion of the ball breaks the plane. ergo, if the chip is in the middle of the ball, would that detect the nose of the ball breaking the plane or not? would there need to be multiple chips in the ball?

mind you, I am all for technology being used IF it will be consistent and verifiable. but if it is not consistent and verifiable, then you're just substituting one argument for another.

on a completely different argument, in my book, I would rather go up to the goal line with a spread formation. make the defense spread out. then you just need one crack or seam in the line for a RB to pop through. no offense to QB's, but they are generally not the biggest, strongest or fastest players on the field. I trust a Darius Taylor to get one yard more than I trust Brosmer.
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Ball is oblong, so one chip in the middle wouldn't do it. But two chips placed in the same position on both halves of the ball would tell you exactly where every part of the ball is at any time.

For sports with a spherical ball, one in the center would do the trick.
 

Scottsdale Gopher said:
There's been several references to various technologies that could be implemented for spotting the ball or determining whether it crosses the goal line. Just a few clarifying comments and addtional info:
  • VAR in soccer is principally built on a 8-12 camera system, and a connected ball was also introduced recently which provides location data to the system. Importantly for soccer, the connected ball also provides inertia measurements, which allow the video assistant referees to check for things like hand ball and also precisely mark when a ball is played so they can determine offside calls. The connected ball technology is what drives the recent semi-automated offside technology. Soccer also uses a seven camera system to support goal line decisions. More here.
  • The NFL already puts a chip in the ball, but has yet to utilize it for marking ball placement. The NFL also puts chips on player equipment. You have likely seen videos of "the dots" on X or elsewhere. These are simple animations of the tracking technology.
  • Baseball uses the same camera company as soccer (and tennis) -- Hawk-Eye. The Hawk-Eye system in baseball now also supports markerless motion capture of biomechanic data. MLB has introduced animations of plays recorded with this biomechanic motion capture.
If football wants to replace referees as the spotters/markers, they'll need a system that integrates all of the above. Markerless motion capture will be central, because you have to determine when the runner is down before you can spot the ball. This is particularly tricky because more than one body part can be responsible for the runner being "down" and any camera-only system can be shielded from view by other players. Technology will likely take over in most of our lifetimes, but it seems further innovation will be required. Surely the NFL will get there first, so I would expect the NCAA to move playoff games to NFL stadiums to utilize the tech. Then the Power 4 conferences will likely install it. It's possible non-P4 schools never do because of expense and/or because they will seldom host a P4 opponent.
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I wouldn't worry too much about using the technology on every play. It's not a huge deal if that 1st down run of 4 yards is spotted a few inches off. But should be available to determine 1st downs and touchdowns.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Ball is oblong, so one chip in the middle wouldn't do it. But two chips placed in the same position on both halves of the ball would tell you exactly where every part of the ball is at any time.

For sports with a spherical ball, one in the center would do the trick.
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How would you put a chip in the center of a hollow sphere?
 

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