PJ Fleck interview on Sunday, Jan 5 (2020)

[USAF]

Thank heaven Coyle had the foresight and courage to can Claeys, even after a bowl win. Tracy Claeys was never going to be a successful head coach. The program was in disarray, recruiting would have tanked, and we'd be at the bottom of the B1G West, hoping against hope to somehow scratch out 6 Ws and be bowl eligible for the "Nobody Gives a Rats *** Bowl."

Kill did some good things, but that had ended. The choice was Claeys, or move on.

 

[MNVCGUY]

I guess what I’m saying is why can’t we appreciate Kill for what he did to turn the program around AND like Fleck for how well he taken things to a new level. I don’t think it’s an insult to Kill to say Fleck inherited a mess, because there were many areas where things were in disarray. it doesn’t mean those that say that are unaware of Kill’s accomplishments and contributions.

Man I really hope this thread doesn't evolve into yet another in a long line of Kill/Claeys vs. Fleck threads. We have had way too many of those over the past few seasons. But your last part hit the nail on the head with a slight adjustment (my change in bold).

There was a ceiling to where we were going to get under Kill/Claeys, the same way there was a clear ceiling on where we were going to get under Mason. This past season has shown that Fleck's ceiling with the program is likely significantly higher then what we have experienced over the past 50+ years of Gopher football.

 

[mjfelton15]

Man I really hope this thread doesn't evolve into yet another in a long line of Kill/Claeys vs. Fleck threads. We have had way too many of those over the past few seasons. But your last part hit the nail on the head with a slight adjustment (my change in bold).

There was a ceiling to where we were going to get under Kill/Claeys, the same way there was a clear ceiling on where we were going to get under Mason. This past season has shown that Fleck's ceiling with the program is likely significantly higher then what we have experienced over the past 50+ years of Gopher football.

I agree. Was just trying to show there is some middle ground we can find. It doesn’t need to be a Kill/Claeys vs. Fleck, it can be a “it took all of them coming along when they did, and doing what they did or are doing, for us to be saying the future of this program has taken a next step” thing. Definitely agree Kill and Claeys had a lower ceiling. I think the main reason for that ceiling was they weren’t going to recruit at a higher level. Who knows, maybe over time they’d improve if we could put together some 8-9 win seasons. But we weren’t doing well against our rivals under those coaches, never grabbed the axe, won the Pig once I believe? Also, they struggled to pull off signature wins when they had chances. TCU and Michigan come to mind. We failed to win some bowl games under those coaches too. None of these things are knocks on Kill though, I want to make that clear. I don’t hold these things against him. I think he and Claeys did what they could here, and they did some really good things here. there was a lot of fixing to do after Brewster, Kill had a full plate. I just don’t think it’s a debate that needs to be had anymore, it’s all fairly irrelevant at this point.

 

[GFBfan]

I agree. Was just trying to show there is some middle ground we can find. It doesn’t need to be a Kill/Claeys vs. Fleck, it can be a “it took all of them coming along when they did, and doing what they did or are doing, for us to be saying the future of this program has taken a next step” thing. Definitely agree Kill and Claeys had a lower ceiling. I think the main reason for that ceiling was they weren’t going to recruit at a higher level. Who knows, maybe over time they’d improve if we could put together some 8-9 win seasons. But we weren’t doing well against our rivals under those coaches, never grabbed the axe, won the Pig once I believe? Also, they struggled to pull off signature wins when they had chances. TCU and Michigan come to mind. We failed to win some bowl games under those coaches too. None of these things are knocks on Kill though, I want to make that clear. I don’t hold these things against him. I think he and Claeys did what they could here, and they did some really good things here. there was a lot of fixing to do after Brewster, Kill had a full plate. I just don’t think it’s a debate that needs to be had anymore, it’s all fairly irrelevant at this point.

Don't buy that at all. Their ceiling was limited by that lack of commitment from the admin. and lack of top notch facilities. Had they stuck around until now(with the better admin support and facilities), I believe they would be in a similar place as to where we are now with Fleck.
They did beat Iowa twice, not once.

 

[MNVCGUY]

Don't buy that at all. Their ceiling was limited by that lack of commitment from the admin. and lack of top notch facilities. Had they stuck around until now(with the better admin support and facilities), I believe they would be in a similar place as to where we are now with Fleck.
They did beat Iowa twice, not once.

We will never truly know how things would have turned out if Kill's health hadn't failed him but there was nothing in their recruiting that made me feel like they would get to the point where we would start out recruiting other Big Ten teams for players.

Kill's recruiting was very similar to Mason's. Got you players that would make you good but the talent wouldn't be there to ever become great. No way we beat out a school like Georgia for a guy like Bateman with Kill as the coach. They just didn't get into those kind of recruiting battles, instead focusing on under recruited players and guys not getting a lot of Power 5 attention.

 

[Panthadad2]

Don't buy that at all. Their ceiling was limited by that lack of commitment from the admin. and lack of top notch facilities. Had they stuck around until now(with the better admin support and facilities), I believe they would be in a similar place as to where we are now with Fleck.
They did beat Iowa twice, not once.

With the risk of the thread going sideways (once again)...

If Kill could have remained healthy, I think it's plausible he could have eventually gotten the team to the current Iowa level - very tough defensively but generally not good enough to compete at the top. Kill's and staff's achilles heel was the lack of passing game development for both QB and receivers which is now pretty much required to be successful. Without major improvement in his offensive coaching staff, I don't think the passing game would have ever developed enough to be a top competitor.

 

[GFBfan]

We will never truly know how things would have turned out if Kill's health hadn't failed him but there was nothing in their recruiting that made me feel like they would get to the point where we would start out recruiting other Big Ten teams for players.

Kill's recruiting was very similar to Mason's. Got you players that would make you good but the talent wouldn't be there to ever become great. No way we beat out a school like Georgia for a guy like Bateman with Kill as the coach. They just didn't get into those kind of recruiting battles, instead focusing on under recruited players and guys not getting a lot of Power 5 attention.

Bateman was under recruited until his senior year, when he started to get the big time offers.

Do you think Bateman signs with the U of M if we didn't have the facilities we do now?

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Bateman was under recruited until his senior year, when he started to get the big time offers.

Do you think Bateman signs with the U of M if we didn't have the facilities we do now?

Yes. Bateman came here because of PJ Fleck, not facilities.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

Man I really hope this thread doesn't evolve into yet another in a long line of Kill/Claeys vs. Fleck threads.

 

[MplsGopher]

With the risk of the thread going sideways (once again)...

If Kill could have remained healthy, I think it's plausible he could have eventually gotten the team to the current Iowa level - very tough defensively but generally not good enough to compete at the top. Kill's and staff's achilles heel was the lack of passing game development for both QB and receivers which is now pretty much required to be successful. Without major improvement in his offensive coaching staff, I don't think the passing game would have ever developed enough to be a top competitor.

This is a good point, because Kill seemed to be the glue that kept all those guys around for years and years.

As soon as Kill went away, we started losing some of those, chiefly Limegrover. If Kill had never left, I think it would be safe to assume that he would've kept Limegrover, et al.

 

[A_Slab_of_Bacon]

With the risk of the thread going sideways (once again)...

If Kill could have remained healthy, I think it's plausible he could have eventually gotten the team to the current Iowa level - very tough defensively but generally not good enough to compete at the top. Kill's and staff's achilles heel was the lack of passing game development for both QB and receivers which is now pretty much required to be successful. Without major improvement in his offensive coaching staff, I don't think the passing game would have ever developed enough to be a top competitor.

Kill's loyalty to Limegrover makes me think he plateaued in 14 ... maybe wouldn't even get back to that.

 

[swingman]

And YOU would be correct. They could not even have a Spring game that year due to not enough offensive linemen

We had 13 scholarship olinemen that Fall of 2017 (three were true frosh) and two walk-on olinemen.
This Fall of 2020, we may have 14 scholarship olinemen (three will be true frosh, one will be a grayshirt frosh) and two walk ons.

We still need about 8 scholarship players to check their compass and sacrifice their spot in the Boat Family, so it is very possible we could be in a worse situation numbers wise on the oline in Fall 2020 than we were in Fall 2017.

 

[swingman]

the defensive backs were completely gutted from that scandal

Durr, Huff, Winfield, Kiondre, McGhee, Ayinde, Shenault, Craighton were all here Fall 2017. Not exactly gutted. Some good Big Ten dbacks in that group.

 

[swingman]

Fleck inherited a team that was a lot closer to a Rutgers or Maryland than a Michigan or Penn St.

Fleck took over a team that went to overtime in Happy Valley in 2016, went to the wire with Michigan in 2015, beat Michigan in Ann Arbor in 2014. Team that dominated Maryland in 2016.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I wish the narrative was that Fleck has brought us to a level that Kill didn't and probably couldn't. I think that should be the narrative because in my mind it is the reality of the situation.

I think Fleck is a much better coach, but Kill made us respectable again. That is a difficult task. He balanced our roster. He brought us to bowl games. I honestly believe that some of the fans might not be old enough to fully understand how bad it got. We were getting beat by brutal programs and the losses were not in a flukey fashion. Not brutal like "Illinois isn't very good", brutal like "this is a bad non-P5 team that clobbered us". With out recruiting classes, it seemed like 1/2 of the players didn't make it to their SO seasons. We had no class / roster balance.

It was bad. It was an absolute mess.

I get that there is a little bit of hyperbole, smoke & mirrors and all of that with selling a program. However, I think it's a little disingenuous to talk about what Kill/Claeys left behind as a mess. It's a slap in the fact to us fans that were sitting in the stadium when we lost to NMSU or whatever F'n Dakota beat us.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Durr, Huff, Winfield, Kiondre, McGhee, Ayinde, Shenault, Craighton were all here Fall 2017. Not exactly gutted. Some good Big Ten dbacks in that group.

I mean, they're okay.

 

[#2Gopher]

Yes. Bateman came here because of PJ Fleck, not facilities.

Not sure about this. Facilities were here when Fleck came on board. Part of a package deal. We'll never know regarding this and many other items that are discuss somewhat foolishly as we'll never know the answers to the past that didn't become fruition (example: Kill's health). Meaning also we're discussing past crap and not looking ahead. Why do people like hashing over the past and the unknowns?

 

[Gold Rush]

Fleck took over a team that went to overtime in Happy Valley in 2016, went to the wire with Michigan in 2015, beat Michigan in Ann Arbor in 2014. Team that dominated Maryland in 2016.

OK - I will give you the fact that Kill and Claeys had some good moments while they were here but the team would not have included Winfield - he was gone if Claeys had stayed. "Some good defensive backs in that group" Yes but they were young and most not ready and again would not have included Winfield. You did not talk about the QB's left behind (gee I wonder why?) in Demry Croft and Conner Rohde who were not Big Ten QB's. They were weak on both lines with little depth, especially on offense.
The offensive line Fleck has next year is FAR above what he had when he came in with. Their receiver corps would have been at or near the bottom of the Big Ten.

This was a team that would have won maybe 3-4 games if Claeys had stayed --- then most certainly he would have been fired by Coyle who did not like him to begin with. I stand by my statement that when Fleck came to the Gophers he inherited a team a lot closer to a Maryland or Rutgers than a Michigan or Penn St. Just check where the Gophers were picked to finish by everyone when Fleck took over to back that one up. That "coming off a 9 win season" statement is extremely misleading that people like Kill and Claeys like to use.

In retrospect, 1) Coyle made the right move in firing Claeys when he did, 2) He made a HR hire with Fleck and 3) He wasted no time in doing it like almost every U of M search committee did in the past. Coyle made all the right moves on this one.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Fleck took over a team that went to overtime in Happy Valley in 2016, went to the wire with Michigan in 2015, beat Michigan in Ann Arbor in 2014. Team that dominated Maryland in 2016.

No he didn't. But you're back to your anti-Fleck trolling ways. The last few months must have been rough on you.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Not sure about this. Facilities were here when Fleck came on board. Part of a package deal. We'll never know regarding this and many other items that are discuss somewhat foolishly as we'll never know the answers to the past that didn't become fruition (example: Kill's health). Meaning also we're discussing past crap and not looking ahead. Why do people like hashing over the past and the unknowns?

Bateman says that Fleck is the reason he came to Minnesota in pretty much every interview. Fleck was also able to land recruits with better, P5 offers at Western Michigan. Why? Not because Western Michigan had better facilities, but because they wanted to play for PJ.

 

[Gold Rush]

No he didn't. But you're back to your anti-Fleck trolling ways. The last few months must have been rough on you.

I do not like to bring up the bad points about previous regimes unless I am forced into it as I prefer to remember the good things they did. The guys who really should have been celebrating the Gophers great season should have been Kill and Claeys as that senior class was their guys but they did not take the high road, badmouthed Fleck and chose to be distanced from the program. I think that was a bad move - it would have been nice to see both of them celebrating right along with everyone else!

 

[GFBfan]

OK - I will give you the fact that Kill and Claeys had some good moments while they were here but the team would not have included Winfield - he was gone if Claeys had stayed. "Some good defensive backs in that group" Yes but they were young and most not ready and again would not have included Winfield. You did not talk about the QB's left behind (gee I wonder why?) in Demry Croft and Conner Rohde who were not Big Ten QB's. They were weak on both lines with little depth, especially on offense.
The offensive line Fleck has next year is FAR above what he had when he came in with. Their receiver corps would have been at or near the bottom of the Big Ten.

This was a team that would have won maybe 3-4 games if Claeys had stayed --- then most certainly he would have been fired by Coyle who did not like him to begin with. I stand by my statement that when Fleck came to the Gophers he inherited a team a lot closer to a Maryland or Rutgers than a Michigan or Penn St. Just check where the Gophers were picked to finish by everyone when Fleck took over to back that one up. That "coming off a 9 win season" statement is extremely misleading that people like Kill and Claeys like to use.

In retrospect, 1) Coyle made the right move in firing Claeys when he did, 2) He made a HR hire with Fleck and 3) He wasted no time in doing it like almost every U of M search committee did in the past. Coyle made all the right moves on this one.

How do you know Winfield wouldn't be back if Claeys had not been fired?
Second thing is Rhoda was brought back by PJ. Tracy was going to let him go.

Your middle paragraph is opinion. The opposite opinion would be had Claeys stayed he would have built on his 9 win season and won the Big West the next year. Neither of those opinions can be proven.

Paragraph three, I can't really argue about. Coyle made a decisive decision to let TC go and an equally decisive hire in PJ, which has turned out great. My only gripe would be in the way he went about the firing. His word choice was poor at best.

 

[Gold Rush]

How do you know Winfield wouldn't be back if Claeys had not been fired?
Second thing is Rhoda was brought back by PJ. Tracy was going to let him go.

Your middle paragraph is opinion. The opposite opinion would be had Claeys stayed he would have built on his 9 win season and won the Big West the next year. Neither of those opinions can be proven.

Paragraph three, I can't really argue about. Coyle made a decisive decision to let TC go and an equally decisive hire in PJ, which has turned out great. My only gripe would be in the way he went about the firing. His word choice was poor at best.

Thanks for the reply - it is always good to chat with fellow Gopher fans. Winfield's father made it known that he was gone and he was upset that Claeys was not watching out for his son. Fleck had to do a recruiting job just to keep him here and it was one of the first things he did!! Rhoda was brought back by PJ as he had no other QB's other then Demry Croft and I am sure he took one look at that guy and said we better have more depth than that. Again - I am amazed he did not use Tanner Morgan and blow his redshirt year because I am sure he was a better option even as a freshman!!

Second paragraph as opinion - well we have no proof what Claeys record would have been had he stayed but if you watched the team struggle under Fleck, and what they were picked at I think there is no doubt in my mind they were heading for a down year regardless who was coach!

And paragraph 3 is of course correct as proven by what Fleck has done this year. We are in a very good place right now and hopefully we can build on it. I am already looking forward to next football season!!

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

OK - I will give you the fact that Kill and Claeys had some good moments while they were here but the team would not have included Winfield - he was gone if Claeys had stayed. "Some good defensive backs in that group" Yes but they were young and most not ready and again would not have included Winfield. You did not talk about the QB's left behind (gee I wonder why?) in Demry Croft and Conner Rohde who were not Big Ten QB's. They were weak on both lines with little depth, especially on offense.
The offensive line Fleck has next year is FAR above what he had when he came in with. Their receiver corps would have been at or near the bottom of the Big Ten.

This was a team that would have won maybe 3-4 games if Claeys had stayed --- then most certainly he would have been fired by Coyle who did not like him to begin with. I stand by my statement that when Fleck came to the Gophers he inherited a team a lot closer to a Maryland or Rutgers than a Michigan or Penn St. Just check where the Gophers were picked to finish by everyone when Fleck took over to back that one up. That "coming off a 9 win season" statement is extremely misleading that people like Kill and Claeys like to use.

In retrospect, 1) Coyle made the right move in firing Claeys when he did, 2) He made a HR hire with Fleck and 3) He wasted no time in doing it like almost every U of M search committee did in the past. Coyle made all the right moves on this one.

It's not misleading. It's a fact.

There were a lot of members of that team that went on to be really big parts of our rebuild - Cashman, R. Smith, Brooks, T. Johnson, Winfield, Durr, Coughlin, Barber, Martin, Wehler, Witham, D. Greene, E. Carpenter)

There were also a number of RS players who have gone on to be big parts of our success - Kieft, Olson & Schlueter.

I am not taking anything away from what Fleck has done. I give him an A and I'm a Fleck super fan. However, many of these players were the backbone of the turnaround.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Thanks for the reply - it is always good to chat with fellow Gopher fans. Winfield's father made it known that he was gone and he was upset that Claeys was not watching out for his son. Fleck had to do a recruiting job just to keep him here and it was one of the first things he did!! Rhoda was brought back by PJ as he had no other QB's other then Demry Croft and I am sure he took one look at that guy and said we better have more depth than that. Again - I am amazed he did not use Tanner Morgan and blow his redshirt year because I am sure he was a better option even as a freshman!!

Second paragraph as opinion - well we have no proof what Claeys record would have been had he stayed but if you watched the team struggle under Fleck, and what they were picked at I think there is no doubt in my mind they were heading for a down year regardless who was coach!

And paragraph 3 is of course correct as proven by what Fleck has done this year. We are in a very good place right now and hopefully we can build on it. I am already looking forward to next football season!!

I'm actually more surprised this wasn't Seth Green. Obviously, PJ handled it perfectly, but I think I would have plopped Seth Green in at QB and ran the ball 85% of the time.

 

[mjfelton15]

Don't buy that at all. Their ceiling was limited by that lack of commitment from the admin. and lack of top notch facilities. Had they stuck around until now(with the better admin support and facilities), I believe they would be in a similar place as to where we are now with Fleck.
They did beat Iowa twice, not once.

You’re looking for an argument clearly, because you missed the sentence immediately following the one you chose to highlight, the one where I said “Who knows, maybe over time they’d improve if we could put together some 8-9 win seasons.” I don’t claim to know where things would have gone. I’m just saying we weren’t as good in year 3 with Kill as we are with Fleck. I didn’t ever PERSONALLY foresee us reaching 11 wins under those coaches. Not saying it wasn’t possible. Strictly just going off of how it felt. And yeah we beat Iowa twice, Wisconsin zero, Michigan once. With Coyle, they wouldn’t get the admin support because both Kill and Claeys were not Coyle’s hires. I don’t think they’d probably have such a tight relationship as Fleck has with Coyle. And I’ve given Kill credit for getting the support for new facilities rolling. You ignored the most important parts of what I said about not wanting it to be an argument. Topic needs to die, unless it’s going to be enjoyable and/or constructive discussion. It shouldn’t be something anyone is even arguing

 

[mjfelton15]

Not sure about this. Facilities were here when Fleck came on board. Part of a package deal. We'll never know regarding this and many other items that are discuss somewhat foolishly as we'll never know the answers to the past that didn't become fruition (example: Kill's health). Meaning also we're discussing past crap and not looking ahead. Why do people like hashing over the past and the unknowns?

Bateman committed to Fleck without a visit I believe. Fleck went to watch him practice, they talked prior, Bateman said “you’re going to watch me practice, you’re going to offer me, and I’m going to commit”. And that’s what happened. That is the official story. He liked Fleck. Didn’t see our facilities until after committing. He visited 3-4 times, but the commitment came first.

 

[BilldGopher]

The AD is the key to all of this.

Am convinced he knew what he wanted to do when he arrived. May not have known exactly WHO would be the one picked out to be the change but it was inevitable Day 0 of his tenure.

In a perverse way we have MegaTongue to thank for our good fortunes...at least in terms of the HC.

Now that's a thought.

Regardless, the result is progress.

 

[GFBfan]

You’re looking for an argument clearly, because you missed the sentence immediately following the one you chose to highlight, the one where I said “Who knows, maybe over time they’d improve if we could put together some 8-9 win seasons.” I don’t claim to know where things would have gone. I’m just saying we weren’t as good in year 3 with Kill as we are with Fleck. I didn’t ever PERSONALLY foresee us reaching 11 wins under those coaches. Not saying it wasn’t possible. Strictly just going off of how it felt. And yeah we beat Iowa twice, Wisconsin zero, Michigan once. With Coyle, they wouldn’t get the admin support because both Kill and Claeys were not Coyle’s hires. I don’t think they’d probably have such a tight relationship as Fleck has with Coyle. And I’ve given Kill credit for getting the support for new facilities rolling. You ignored the most important parts of what I said about not wanting it to be an argument. Topic needs to die, unless it’s going to be enjoyable and/or constructive discussion. It shouldn’t be something anyone is even arguing

Nope. You have your beliefs, I have mine.
I feel Kill/Claeys would have taken the next step and gotten us to this level.
Kill started in a very different place than PJ, with more challenges especially with admin support and facilities, so it is understandable that PJ would be further along.
As far as Coyle supporting them. Agreed he had no desire to keep TC, but I think he would have been more receptive to JK had he still been around. (Unless JK started acting like the tool he has become of late that is)

 

[mjfelton15]

Nope. You have your beliefs, I have mine.
I feel Kill/Claeys would have taken the next step and gotten us to this level.
Kill started in a very different place than PJ, with more challenges especially with admin support and facilities, so it is understandable that PJ would be further along.
As far as Coyle supporting them. Agreed he had no desire to keep TC, but I think he would have been more receptive to JK had he still been around. (Unless JK started acting like the tool he has become of late that is)

Yeah well since Jerry Kill left, but then continued to try coaching elsewhere (which I find to be quite peculiar, because he seemed like he had to be seriously done for his health), we’ll never know where we’d be had he stayed. I don’t wish we could go back, or undo what’s been done though. I’m happy with 11-2 with wins against Penn State and Auburn, happy to be part of the CFP conversation until the final week of the season, happy that we might end up in the Top 10 AP Poll to conclude the season. I also think Coyle is too new wave and “hip” to ever really connect that well with an old school mind like Kill, just my opinion. I don’t picture them having a nice dinner together and having much in common. Coyle wanted young, flashy, and an up-and-comer. I’m really curious though, and this isn’t me trying to argue about it, but why couldn’t Kill or Claeys ever land someone better than Leidner? Serious question. Because I’d see a school like Tennessee Tech with 10x the accuracy and a way better arm than Leidner, or any QB Kill and Claeys were able to land. Why did we not have anyone that could draw a decent QB? I know the staff wanted us to be a run heavy offense, but teams have been moving toward a balanced/RPO offense for awhile now. Leidner’s 4 INT’s against Wisconsin, when we had a shot at winning the Big Ten West, was truly the best QB we could get? All we needed was Leidner to manage the game. He didn’t have to be anything close to spectacular, just not total shit the bed.