PiPress: Gophers basketball: The sudden transformation

[dpodoll68]

Washington (<strike>a high finisher in the Pac12</strike> Pac-12 champions)

FIFY

And no, that probably won't count either. None of these wins count. They're not real. The other team has not been trying for 3 games in a row now.

 

[bga1]

That's all well and good, and even accurate to some degree, but not the point of the linked article or my original statement. The PP article stated how they've turned it around, had gotten rid of the defensive breakdowns, were playing more up tempo and effective offense, etc. etc. They've righted the ship! Get Tubby that extension. Huzzah!

BS. They beat the 6th place team from the A10, the 6th place team from the ACC (without their best player), and Directional Tennessee State. The competition level drops significantly and all those problems go away. Shocking. I seem to remember alot of similar wins against non-conference foes earlier this year, and all of the issues with Tubby and his teams magically reappeared once B10 season started.

I agree that it's better to win these games than lose and it's good for some players' development, but lets not pretend this "run" is an indication of some huge leap the program is making. I'd rather lose a 1st round NCAA game by 50 than win the NIT championship.

After 5 years of Tubbyball we squeaked into the NIT. Other B10 programs fire their coaches for that. Regrettably, not us.

BTW - try to mix some more double and triple negatives into your "idiot" insults. Laughing at your 5th grade level grammar makes reading your posts more tolerable.

So GoGo, are you saying you don't see a discernable difference in the leadership and play they are now getting from Andre Hollins and Rodney Williams?

I look at this team now with Andre at the point and I am amazed that we won any games when he was playing 10-15 minutes. He totally changes the offense the way he is playing now. Rodney is making plays he was not making and shooting with confidence he didn't have before. There's more to be said including Austin and EE, but it's tough not to recognize that there is now a lot more reason for hope.

 

[goldengophers]

Tubby Smith just got compared to Bill Carmondy and Fran McCaffery...

 

[GoGoGophers]

Tubby Smith just got compared to Bill Carmondy and Fran McCaffery...

Hilarious. Plus, McCaffery will not survive a 5th year like Tubby's. Iowa has already proven that. Hell, they fired Alford and he won multiple B10 tournament titles.

I do like what I'm seeing from Dre, EE, and Rodney. I just temper my enthusiasm a bit when I see the terrible defenses and lack of skill (particularly in the front court) of the competition.

The biggest point, and the original one made in this thread, is that this run in the JV tourney does not justify the sh!tburger of a season Tubby engineered once again nor will it be a watershed moment in the program.

 

[Moses87]

Its more about the competition, folks...Let's not read too much into beating inferior talent. It's not like anybody improved that much. I will give Rodney some props for finally becoming a bit more aggressive with driving to the basket. That has been encouraging! But the competition doesn't play defense at the same level as our Big Ten foes do.

 

[scher215]

Tubby Smith just got compared to Bill Carmondy and Fran McCaffery...

The original statement was that any other big 10 school would fire their coach after an NIT run in year 5.

Carmody alone is proof that, no, all other big 10 schools would not do that. Or did I miss something that NU is no longer in the big 10? (Tubby has a better big 10 resume than Carmody)

Fran made the NIT in year 2 after going 4-14 and 8-10. Worse than Tubby's first 2 years, yet he is still employed. (Tubby has a better big 10 resume than Fran)

When Dechelis coached at PSU, in year 5 he had only one NIT appearance in year 3 and was not fired then or after year 5. Nor was he fired after winning the NIT year 6. Nor was he fired after not making any tournament year 7. (Tubby has a better Big 10 resume than Ed)

Tom Crean had no tournament appearances after year 3 and had horrid big ten records yet he also stayed employed. (until this season -tournament wins- tubby has a comparable big 10 resume to Crean)

So again, no, not every big 10 school would fire their coach with Tubby's current resume.

Would MSU or tOSU do it? Probably. That is hardly "any other big 10" school though.

Or did I miss something that all of these schools who did not fire their coaches for similar or worse performances than Tubby have been removed from the Big 10?

 

[Bad Gopher]

Its more about the competition, folks...Let's not read too much into beating inferior talent. It's not like anybody improved that much. I will give Rodney some props for finally becoming a bit more aggressive with driving to the basket. That has been encouraging! But the competition doesn't play defense at the same level as our Big Ten foes do.

I wouldn't go overboard with that. These teams are the caliber of Illinois, Northwestern and Iowa. If the Gophs beat those three teams consecutively on the road, people would stand up and take notice. This is not some lame-o run.

 

[Moses87]

I wouldn't go overboard with that. These teams are the caliber of Illinois, Northwestern and Iowa. If the Gophs beat those three teams consecutively on the road, people would stand up and take notice. This is not some lame-o run.

I disagree. The Illini have legit interior players and Iowa and NW play much better than anybody we've played in this tourney. Lasalle and MTSU were very limited size wise and Miami just came out flat.

 

[scher215]

Its more about the competition, folks...Let's not read too much into beating inferior talent. It's not like anybody improved that much. I will give Rodney some props for finally becoming a bit more aggressive with driving to the basket. That has been encouraging! But the competition doesn't play defense at the same level as our Big Ten foes do.

I agree with you on the defense portion of it, but the competition is hardly chopped liver.

Northwestern - #51 RPI (W)
Michigan - #17 RPI (L)
La Salle - #92 RPI (W)
Miami (FL) - #68 RPI (W)
Middle Tennessee Sate - #62 RPI (W)

so the Gophers (#63 RPI) since the big 10 tournament are 0-1 against 1-50 and 4-0 against 51-100. Or 4-1 against the top 100. We are 1-1 in neutral site games and 3-0 in true road games.

And before people mention (BUT MIAMI WAS WITHOUT THEIR BEST PLAYER!!!!) no excuses, remember? Minnesota has been without theirs since November 27th and yet no one excuses Minnesota for losing or only making the NIT.

While not a series of top 25 wins, it's not like we've been playing mount st Mary (#290 RPI) either.

 

[GophersInIowa]

Has the competition been great? No
Is it tough to go on the road and win? Yes
Have certain guys really stepped up the last half dozen games or so? Yes
Does this mean we will be a great team next year or that this year has been successful overall? No
Is it alright to still not be convinced we will be good next year? Yes
Is it alright to be optimistic about next year? Yes

It's been a tough year, so it's been nice to see us play well lately and win some games we probably wouldn't have earlier this season.

 

[SelectionSunday]

I wouldn't go overboard with that. These teams are the caliber of Illinois, Northwestern and Iowa. If the Gophs beat those three teams consecutively on the road, people would stand up and take notice.

Exactly.

These are EXACTLY the types of teams the Gophers need to beat (home and road) in order to secure future NCAA bids. Take care of business vs. teams of similar ilk (slighly better or slightly worse), protect your home court to the tune of about 7-2 (maybe even 6-3), knock off 1 or 2 of the conference big boys and -- presto -- any B1G team will find itself safely in the (4-letter) tournament 99% of the time.

 

[dpodoll68]

McCaffery will not survive a 5th year like Tubby's.

How much do you want to bet?

Iowa has already proven that.

How so? They fired Lickliter. Compare Lickliter's record at Iowa to Tubby's at Minnesota and get back to me. Also, McCaffery has already accomplished two things in his second season that Lickliter never did - a plus-.500 record overall and winning more than 6 Big Ten games in a season. The 2011-12 Iowa squad was unquestionably much better than the 2010-11. Lickliter's teams only got worse with each successive season.

Hell, they fired Alford and he won multiple B10 tournament titles.

Yes, they fired him after 8 seasons. He also didn't make the postseason, at all, in his last season there. What's your point?

I just temper my enthusiasm a bit when I see the terrible defenses and lack of skill (particularly in the front court) of the competition.

Defenses and skill that were good enough to beat other BCS schools, on the road nonetheless. But no, let's not give the Gophers any credit at all.

The biggest point, and the original one made in this thread, is that this run in the JV tourney does not justify the sh!tburger of a season Tubby engineered once again nor will it be a watershed moment in the program.

Who said that it does? That has nothing to do with your whining in this thread.

 

[Moses87]

The Gophers won't be a top 5 team in the Big Ten next year unless Mbakwe comes back. We'll need his toughness inside or we'll just be another 7-11, 8-10 type of team.

 

[SelectionSunday]

The Gophers won't be a top 5 team in the Big Ten next year unless Mbakwe comes back. We'll need his toughness inside or we'll just be another 7-11, 8-10 type of team.

You are really going out on a limb there. Don't fall out of the tree.

 

[GoGoGophers]

Exactly.

These are EXACTLY the types of teams the Gophers need to beat (home and road) in order to secure future NCAA bids. Take care of business vs. teams of similar ilk (slighly better or slightly worse), protect your home court to the tune of about 7-2 (maybe even 6-3), knock off 1 or 2 of the conference big boys and -- presto -- any B1G team will find itself safely in the (4-letter) tournament 99% of the time.

All due respect, Hodger, but beating them in the nit is not the same as beating them in non-con. These games don't matter, plain and simple. Teams (especially ones from power conferences) often no-show this tournament and mail it in. Hell, the tournament almost folded 5 years ago due to lack of interest.

 

[Rouser4eVA]

All due respect, Hodger, but beating them in the nit is not the same as beating them in non-con. These games don't matter, plain and simple. Teams (especially ones from power conferences) often no-show this tournament and mail it in. Hell, the tournament almost folded 5 years ago due to lack of interest.

Let me be the first to argue against that point. You could definitely make that argument for the Miami game, but Lasalle and MTSU did no such thing! Those were fiercely contested games in truly hostile environments, packed houses that had obvious investment in the outcome.

These games had post-season flavor, no question! Very fun to watch and listen on ESPN!

Go Gophers!

 

[dpodoll68]

These games don't matter, plain and simple. Teams (especially ones from power conferences) often no-show this tournament and mail it in.

You keep telling yourself that. Keep creating whatever imaginary constructs you must in order to not give Tubby any credit at all, for anything, ever.

 

[SelectionSunday]

All due respect, Hodger, but beating them in the nit is not the same as beating them in non-con.

On this we agree. They are 2 separate things, for sure. During the regular season beating these types of teams (top 50-100 RPI) would help the Gophers get into the NCAA Tournament. Beating them now does not, obviously.

Point being, again, during the regular season teams like LaSalle (#86), Miami (#60), MTSU (#56) and I'll throw in Dayton (#81), etc., are exactly the types of teams the Gophers need to beat both outside and within the B1G if they want to avoid painful selection Sundays.

 

[GoGoGophers]

You keep telling yourself that. Keep creating whatever imaginary constructs you must in order to not give Tubby any credit at all, for anything, ever.

Will do. And you can keep pretending that three wins against teams un-worthy of the real postseason somehow offsets 2 seasons of terrible results, awful coaching, average to below average recruiting, plummeting attendance/profitability, and ultimately trending to the bottom of the conference. Is any of that Tubby's responsibility/fault?

Forgive me that I'm not rushing to praise the Tubster to no end for this magical run.

 

[bga1]

The Gophers won't be a top 5 team in the Big Ten next year unless Mbakwe comes back. We'll need his toughness inside or we'll just be another 7-11, 8-10 type of team.

How do you know Mo won't be tough?

 

[scher215]

Will do. And you can keep pretending that three wins against teams un-worthy of the real postseason somehow offsets 2 seasons of terrible results, awful coaching, average to below average recruiting, plummeting attendance/profitability, and ultimately trending to the bottom of the conference. Is any of that Tubby's responsibility/fault?

Forgive me that I'm not rushing to praise the Tubster to no end for this magical run.

No one has said this "offsets" the poor big 10 season. They said it offers hope for next year and is good experience for next year, as well as being fun to watch.

Awful coaching can be debated, but I'd say his overall resume and his first 3 years at MN speaks against being a poor coach. Just my opinion.

Just last season he signed 2 top 150 recruits, one a 3-star and one a borderline 3/4-star. Both are starters and one was named to the all BTT team. Another of his recruits is currently being debated as an NBA prospect. Another was one until he tore his ACL.

Maybe your definition of plummeting in regards to attendance is different than mine, but in my opinion based on the numbers it hasn't "plummeted" plus this run will cause optimism for next year and likely more tickets.

Please provide the financial statements that show plummeting profits. Considering the U is getting a new $2.5 million scoreboard I'd guess profits are not "plummeting"

Trending towards the bottom of the conference I've got to give you. We went from 6/7 under tubby to 9th. That is a downward trend. However, this run provides optimism that won't be the case next year.

And no one expects you to "praise him to no end" but to take absolutely no joy in winning games is a little odd. You'd rather drum up things (real or unreal) to make them "not count" and you can continue to avoid giving Tubby Smith even an ounce of credit.

 

[stocker08]

I agree with you on the defense portion of it, but the competition is hardly chopped liver.

Northwestern - #51 RPI (W)
Michigan - #17 RPI (L)
La Salle - #92 RPI (W)
Miami (FL) - #68 RPI (W)
Middle Tennessee Sate - #62 RPI (W)

so the Gophers (#63 RPI) since the big 10 tournament are 0-1 against 1-50 and 4-0 against 51-100. Or 4-1 against the top 100. We are 1-1 in neutral site games and 3-0 in true road games.

And before people mention (BUT MIAMI WAS WITHOUT THEIR BEST PLAYER!!!!) no excuses, remember? Minnesota has been without theirs since November 27th and yet no one excuses Minnesota for losing or only making the NIT.

While not a series of top 25 wins, it's not like we've been playing mount st Mary (#290 RPI) either.

This. The hate spewed by some of these trolls is laughable when they pick and choose what to recognize and what not to recognize.

 

[dpodoll68]

you can keep pretending that three wins against teams un-worthy of the real postseason somehow offsets 2 seasons

Who said that? Another imaginary construct to go with the earlier one that teams in the NIT don't try. You are on a roll.

ultimately trending to the bottom of the conference

Though the rest of your points in this list are opinion (and I vehemently disagree with all), this one is not, and is categorically false. The Gophers have not finished in last place in the conference, nor even come close, during Tubby's tenure. They are also not "trending" to the bottom of anything. They finished 6-12 and 9th in the conference last year, and 6-12 and 9th in the conference this year. If anything, they are "trending" to being a consistent bottom third finisher in the Big Ten, a spot they were accustomed to long before Tubby ever showed up. But please, continue making sh*t up.

Is any of that Tubby's responsibility/fault?

Who said that it wasn't? I blame him for his failures, and credit him for his successes. You want to solely do the former without the latter. A fair assessment of a situation doesn't work that way.

Forgive me that I'm not rushing to praise the Tubster to no end for this magical run.

Who is?

 

[stocker08]

Will do. And you can keep pretending that three wins against teams un-worthy of the real postseason somehow offsets 2 seasons of terrible results, awful coaching, average to below average recruiting, plummeting attendance/profitability, and ultimately trending to the bottom of the conference. Is any of that Tubby's responsibility/fault?

Forgive me that I'm not rushing to praise the Tubster to no end for this magical run.

Teams unworthy of the real postseason, huh? We aren't exactly playing doorknob state here. We are playing pretty decent competition in the top-100. Nobody is saying that Tubby deserves all sorts of praise, but if you look at the teams play in the last five games, vs where they were at one point, they have been playing quite a bit better. Yeah, they deserve some credit.

 

[mntwinsfreak89]

No one has said this "offsets" the poor big 10 season. They said it offers hope for next year and is good experience for next year, as well as being fun to watch.

Awful coaching can be debated, but I'd say his overall resume and his first 3 years at MN speaks against being a poor coach. Just my opinion.

Just last season he signed 2 top 150 recruits, one a 3-star and one a borderline 3/4-star. Both are starters and one was named to the all BTT team. Another of his recruits is currently being debated as an NBA prospect. Another was one until he tore his ACL.

Maybe your definition of plummeting in regards to attendance is different than mine, but in my opinion based on the numbers it hasn't "plummeted" plus this run will cause optimism for next year and likely more tickets.

Please provide the financial statements that show plummeting profits. Considering the U is getting a new $2.5 million scoreboard I'd guess profits are not "plummeting"

Trending towards the bottom of the conference I've got to give you. We went from 6/7 under tubby to 9th. That is a downward trend. However, this run provides optimism that won't be the case next year.

And no one expects you to "praise him to no end" but to take absolutely no joy in winning games is a little odd. You'd rather drum up things (real or unreal) to make them "not count" and you can continue to avoid giving Tubby Smith even an ounce of credit.

New scoreboard as in finally a new video screen and more statboards? That would be great if this is true.

 

[scher215]

New scoreboard as in finally a new video screen and more statboards? That would be great if this is true.

Correct. Doogie has apparently seen pictures and designs of it. There is another thread on it.

Should be ready for next season.

 

[Costa Rican Gopher]

The NIT is a great experience for young teams. It's like being in a minor bowl game for young football teams. The extra practice, travel & bonding time are great long term for the team.

The moment Trevor went down this season became about playing for the future. 7 of 10 players were underclassmen (youngest rotation in the B1G) & one a newly arrived Juco transfer. I said at that point I wanted to see the team play hard all season, get better as season wore on, develop clearly defined roles, find a go-to guy & stay together as a nucleus for the future. That was my benchmark of success for this rebuilding year & I feel like they've reached those goals.

I'm not doing back flips because we're in the NIT but many of the Tubby haters objections have been/are being eliminated. Getting better at the end of the season is indisputable. Player development is indisputable. Talent on the roster is indisputable. Tubby not being involved or emotional during games is out the window. Tubby's style of play is why PG's never want to play for us is out the window. In general there are a lot of positives to build on & watching the team has become fun again.

 

[howieramone]

The NIT is a great experience for young teams. It's like being in a minor bowl game for young football teams. The extra practice, travel & bonding time are great long term for the team.

The moment Trevor went down this season became about playing for the future. 7 of 10 players were underclassmen (youngest rotation in the B1G) & one a newly arrived Juco transfer. I said at that point I wanted to see the team play hard all season, get better as season wore on, develop clearly defined roles, find a go-to guy & stay together as a nucleus for the future. That was my benchmark of success for this rebuilding year & I feel like they've reached those goals.

I'm not doing back flips because we're in the NIT but many of the Tubby haters objections have been/are being eliminated. Getting better at the end of the season is indisputable. Player development is indisputable. Talent on the roster is indisputable. Tubby not being involved or emotional during games is out the window. Tubby's style of play is why PG's never want to play for us is out the window. In general there are a lot of positives to build on & watching the team has become fun again.

+1

 

[GophersInIowa]

Will do. And you can keep pretending that three wins against teams un-worthy of the real postseason somehow offsets 2 seasons of terrible results, awful coaching, average to below average recruiting, plummeting attendance/profitability, and ultimately trending to the bottom of the conference. Is any of that Tubby's responsibility/fault?

Forgive me that I'm not rushing to praise the Tubster to no end for this magical run.

I don't know who you're even talking to here because no one has said any of those things.

 

[Mulligan]

I'm not doing back flips because we're in the NIT but many of the Tubby haters objections have been/are being eliminated.

Well, one hasn't been yet unfortunately but at least he hasn't made a scatological reference in his last several posts. You know what Freud said about people who obsess on that, but, then again, I guess there is a small chance GoGo doesn't have that problem.