Perspective and Fleck's plan moving forward

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Spoofin said:
Side step. You pimp rankings at every moment you can. You have used them as evidence that we have no talent - especially on offense and specifically at OL. However, with PJ we shouldn't care about rankings at OL now because of some dudes at WMU that panned out with low rankings. As I said, they matter except when they don't and PJ can do no wrong with you. Super Duper.


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Again, rankings matter, it's simple math.

If you're not a helmet school, you're still going to have to develop under the radar guys. Fleck will do both here. He'll bump up the recruiting rankings and he'll develop under the radar 2* and 3* recruits. That's exactly what he did at WMU.
 


Probably the most remarkable thing about both the B1G games is that they were not runaway wins for either Maryland or Purdue.

Both games the Gophers and the opponents had their flaws exposed but in the end it was pretty much the same on the scoreboard for most of the game(s). Whoever scored last won.

Certainly as a Claeys backer I believe we would have won these. But of course that's a thought experiment. We'll never know.

So here we are again starting over...painful as that is. THAT REALITY IS ON THE AD...He made that decision...not Fleck.

So now I support Fleck until he fails. More data is needed for that call to be made. I'd expect that Mr. Coyle is pulling for Coach Fleck to succeed as much as anybody.
 

We just got out coached in the Maryland and Purdue games. Fleck has not proven he is a P5 coach. Time will tell. There is time, but losing these games is going to hurt recruiting. No one can argue that. Saturday night may change a lot for us and Fleck. Go Gophers!
 

Can we all agree on this: Fleck showed promise at WMU. But, he is moving up to a higher level of competition, which requires a higher level of recruiting to be successful.

Some people believe fervently that Fleck will be able to recruit, coach and win at a higher level. Other people are not sure, or have doubts.

There have been MAC coaches who have moved up to a higher level and been very successful. There have been other MAC coaches who moved up to a higher level, and were not successful.

And, it's not an either-or choice between success and failure. there are degrees of success and failure.

Fleck could turn out to be a 10-win coach - a 7-win coach - a 5-win coach - or a 3-win coach. What will he be- I don't know. You don't know. There are no guarantees. Wanting something to happen does not make it so. If it did, I would be tall, rich and good-looking. I am not tall, rich or good-looking.

PJ Fleck may turn out to be a great coach - an average coach - or a poor coach at the D1 Level. Only time will tell.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
Can we all agree on this: Fleck showed promise at WMU. But, he is moving up to a higher level of competition, which requires a higher level of recruiting to be successful.

Some people believe fervently that Fleck will be able to recruit, coach and win at a higher level. Other people are not sure, or have doubts.

There have been MAC coaches who have moved up to a higher level and been very successful. There have been other MAC coaches who moved up to a higher level, and were not successful.

And, it's not an either-or choice between success and failure. there are degrees of success and failure.

Fleck could turn out to be a 10-win coach - a 7-win coach - a 5-win coach - or a 3-win coach. What will he be- I don't know. You don't know. There are no guarantees. Wanting something to happen does not make it so. If it did, I would be tall, rich and good-looking. I am not tall, rich or good-looking.

PJ Fleck may turn out to be a great coach - an average coach - or a poor coach at the D1 Level. Only time will tell.
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Can we all just acknowledge the fact that Wisconsin sucks at recruiting and wins anyway?
Recruiting is not as important as the product on the field.
 

Ok not to sound like an asshat because I really like PJF, but...

Everyone keeps talking about how he's such a stellar recruiter. One earlier post stated very eloquently that when he had an apples to apples comparison amongst MAC schools to recruit, his charisma came through and he out recruited them all and put together excellent classes that lead to victories.
Now, he's with the BiG boys and while I absolutely loved (and am very impressed) that he basically put together a full class at an unheard of pace each month this team slides further and further in the rankings. According to 247 he's 8 in the BiG with 6 teams behind but of those teams Iowa, Northwestern, and even Illinois are most likely to pass us by in the rankings, forcing us towards the familiar territory that we have been at. By the looks of the overall rankings we will end up very close to where we ended up with Kill and Claeys. Now, these rankings may very well change and we might have a bunch more 4* when they re-evaluate the recruits which then would make this line of thought of him being the all-star recruiter true, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Personally, I loved how Kill and Claeys recruited guys to their system and got a lot out of their players even though they were not all that highly rated (although I thought they recruited actually fairly decent and kept many of the highly rated Minnesota kids at home which I loved).

Those that are recruiting gurus please educate me on why Fleck is going to have such better recruiting and as I keep hearing (and have heard for the last 40 years as a Gophers fan) wait until year (fill in the blank) when all these stud recruits are upperclassmen. It doesn't appear that is necessarily going to be the case from what I have seen. I'm not negative about it, I just want to hear more insights as to why...Wisky has proved you don't need top 20 classes to be an upper tier team (and anyone that thinks they are not has their head in the sand, that has been a solid program for a long time).
 

I look at the average per recruit. We have 23 commits and an average of 84.91. Some schools have fewer commits and an average close to ours. Top recruits are going to go to teams already at the top. Most other schools will get guys that will not raise their average. I don't see us moving up or down much from where we are at this point.

I'm a novice at this recruiting stuff.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
Claeys and Kill were grinders, schemers, X's and O's were their specialty, they were up all night finding ways to gain an edge, but in the end they failed to build program depth because they depended on JUCO players too much, and frankly Limergrover's lack of recruiting talent did everyone a disservice, our QB, WR, and OL depth and talent is pretty awful. Especially OL.

Nice to throw a bunch of young (and talented) MN guys under the bus. I hate to break it to you but the O linemen from 2017 and 2018 classes aren't highly rated. This staff will have to coach 'em up if we are to compete in the trenches anytime before 2021 or so. Stop with the excuses. Help the line out with scheme.
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You just can't resign yourself to say this was an excellent post. What a complete tool you are.
 



diehard said:
We just got out coached in the Maryland and Purdue games. Fleck has not proven he is a P5 coach. Time will tell. There is time, but losing these games is going to hurt recruiting. No one can argue that. Saturday night may change a lot for us and Fleck. Go Gophers!
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I can argue that. You can still land a good class without the wins, Brewster did, others have.
 

hello-world said:
Can we all just acknowledge the fact that Wisconsin sucks at recruiting and wins anyway?
Recruiting is not as important as the product on the field.
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No we can't, because they don't suck at recruiting. Top 40 most years.
 

Ok, a few responses on my recruiting question. I appreciate it.
What is a good class then for who the Gophers are? I would say top 40 is decent. Top 30 is good. Top 20 is exceptional. Anything above that is probably not going to happen for a very long time. I would like to see consistently in the top 25-35 and I think that would get us what we need.

Anyone else?
 

When they made the terrible decision to fire Claeys, I remember telling my son how I didn't want Fleck. Had seen him coach a couple games and I couldn't stand him. Hated the sprinting between quarters, hated row the boat, etc. This kind of gimmick just doesn't last. There's always a hot prospect coming out of the MAC. This year there will be another one....some of them are good coaches, some of them are not. Our coward of an A.D. can't tell the difference between the two. We are stuck with this mess now for a few years at least. I expect the offense to
show improvemen once he grooms a young qb to fit his offense, but I see the defense taking a downward turn from here. I don't think PJ will ever hit the nine win mark. Sooner or later at Minnesota you have to be able to coach, not just recruit. His whole persona and catch phrases are built towards recruiting. That will never be enough to get him recruiting classes that are better than the competition in the Big Ten. He will have to coach them and thru 5 games I don't see any signs that he has that ability.
 




I think we are beginning to understand the limitations, but I blame PJ for setting the bar super high. There were no limits/or tempering, pj was going to take a powerboat up the river, now the boat is leaking and it is sinking, it will be sunk next year. 2 years from now, who knows, but pj is not meeting our expectations none the less his own--he set it up as a cheerleader, maybe that is what he is good at...but I think we have a heck of road to go before we even get back to last years quality of play on the field...we should not expect to get beat my MD and PU, even if they are improving, they are the bottom of the b1g, crap, I think mn is the bottom now...nothing elite about it...the rah rahs need to stop by pj, I hate the commercials and row the boat and elite and all that crap, it is getting embarrassing--just win, then the base will back you
 

csom_1991 said:
I don't know who you are penciling for another 2-3 wins this year, but that seems like a stretch at this point. If we can do it, I agree that we could possibly have a decent recruiting class. Just as likely though, is we get 0 or 1 win and get rolled by 30+ a couple of times. If that happens, I don't think we are going to have a good recruiting class as the stench of the program will be unbearable. So my question to you is: what is Fleck's ceiling if recruiting is on par with Kill? I would like to see the focus on scheme and coaching up what you have vs. wishful thinking about recruiting. Even if Fleck is God's gift to recruiting, we will never out-recruit UM, tOSU, PSU, WI, Nebraska, etc - so at the end of the day, we need something other than just recruiting to build a Big Ten contender.
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I say give him more than 5 games. His recruiting will not be on par with Kill, it will be better. My opinion, his ceiling will be beating Wisconsin, playing to go to Big Ten Championship games, making a Big Ten championship game, and maybe even winning one. For people to be making judgements about how bad he is going to be just 5 games into his time here is crazy! It's not like he didn't have success as a head coach prior. More success than in 4 years as a head coach than Kill had in 25 years, and I loved Kill. Referencing Kill's MAC years vs Flecks.


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Kill had a better MAC record than Fleck. He currently has a better Big Ten record.
 

People have such short memories.

1. Brewster's first year, he went 1-11. It was during/after that same year he brought in the best recruiting class we'd had in the Rivals era. There is no reason to believe that Fleck's recruiting will suffer from this season. He's selling what his program will be, not what it is/was.

2. Brewster's second year he rebounded to a typical Mason season going 3-5 in conference play and playing in a minor bowl. This type of season has basically been Minnesota football for the last 20 years. That season would have been slightly better if not for an Eric Decker injury that significantly impacted our passing game. If Brewster could make that type of turnaround, there is no reason to believe Fleck could not.

3. For as much as Brewster gets bashed here, there were actually more of his recruits contributing to the Gophers teams in years 2&3 of the Kill regime than there were Mason recruits contributing to the Gopher teams in years 2&3 of the Brewster regime.

4. I feel like people who are angry at Fleck for what they perceive as him punting this year or for what they perceive as excuse making either a) honestly don't remember Jerry Kill's first year or b) are being knowingly hypocritical because they don't care for Fleck's personality. Here's a reminder: The Gophers lost to a historically bad New Mexico State team and North Dakota State at home. In their B1G opener Killl's squad then lost to Michigan 59-0. I believe it was a this point he went and whined to the administration about how bad things were and got a one year extension! All Coach Kill did was complain about things and lower expectations throughout that season. By comparison, Coach Fleck has actually been relatively cheery when talking about this team.
 



MaxyJR1 said:
I look at the average per recruit. We have 23 commits and an average of 84.91. Some schools have fewer commits and an average close to ours. Top recruits are going to go to teams already at the top. Most other schools will get guys that will not raise their average. I don't see us moving up or down much from where we are at this point.

I'm a novice at this recruiting stuff.
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The only reason we are ranked at #35 on 247 is because we have 23 recruits. Many schools 10 to 25 spots below us have 10 to 18 recruits. When those teams with higher or similar averages add players they'll pass us. Unless, we add some higher rated guys ourselves. But because we got our guys so early and our season is descending it's not impossible we lose some of our own higher rated guys. We can easily end up at some where in the 50 neighborhood.
The biggest wild card factor is how many guys teams take... if we take 30 guys we'll likely hold our spot, keeping the present 23 guys. Somebody with a lower average that takes 30 to somebody else's 25 will be ahead of them...except two stars lower your ranking...get a few of those and you go down in rankings.
Impossible to predict, but the chances we are near 50 in February with 25 guys is greater than it is we finish at #35...imo
 



leadpipegopher said:
You'd take MAC Championships for Western Michigan over bowl wins for the Gophs? That's weird. You really love PJ.
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He's proven the ability to win a conference championship at a FBS level. Kill and Claeys have not.
 

NotAFanOfBecky said:
Ok not to sound like an asshat because I really like PJF, but...

Everyone keeps talking about how he's such a stellar recruiter. One earlier post stated very eloquently that when he had an apples to apples comparison amongst MAC schools to recruit, his charisma came through and he out recruited them all and put together excellent classes that lead to victories.
Now, he's with the BiG boys and while I absolutely loved (and am very impressed) that he basically put together a full class at an unheard of pace each month this team slides further and further in the rankings. According to 247 he's 8 in the BiG with 6 teams behind but of those teams Iowa, Northwestern, and even Illinois are most likely to pass us by in the rankings, forcing us towards the familiar territory that we have been at. By the looks of the overall rankings we will end up very close to where we ended up with Kill and Claeys. Now, these rankings may very well change and we might have a bunch more 4* when they re-evaluate the recruits which then would make this line of thought of him being the all-star recruiter true, but I don't think that's going to happen.

Personally, I loved how Kill and Claeys recruited guys to their system and got a lot out of their players even though they were not all that highly rated (although I thought they recruited actually fairly decent and kept many of the highly rated Minnesota kids at home which I loved).

Those that are recruiting gurus please educate me on why Fleck is going to have such better recruiting and as I keep hearing (and have heard for the last 40 years as a Gophers fan) wait until year (fill in the blank) when all these stud recruits are upperclassmen. It doesn't appear that is necessarily going to be the case from what I have seen. I'm not negative about it, I just want to hear more insights as to why...Wisky has proved you don't need top 20 classes to be an upper tier team (and anyone that thinks they are not has their head in the sand, that has been a solid program for a long time).
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I'm certainly not a guru by any means but I'll give it a shot. I think he could do very well because he's unique and different. He's young and energetic. Adults may roll their eyes to a lot of it but some 16-18 year olds will love it. Some recruits trusted him so much that they switched commitments to MN right after he was hire without even visiting the campus. He's proven his system and culture can put guys in the NFL.
 

60's Guy said:
The only reason we are ranked at #35 on 247 is because we have 23 recruits. Many schools 10 to 25 spots below us have 10 to 18 recruits. When those teams with higher or similar averages add players they'll pass us. Unless, we add some higher rated guys ourselves. But because we got our guys so early and our season is descending it's not impossible we lose some of our own higher rated guys. We can easily end up at some where in the 50 neighborhood.
The biggest wild card factor is how many guys teams take... if we take 30 guys we'll likely hold our spot, keeping the present 23 guys. Somebody with a lower average that takes 30 to somebody else's 25 will be ahead of them...except two stars lower your ranking...get a few of those and you go down in rankings.
Impossible to predict, but the chances we are near 50 in February with 25 guys is greater than it is we finish at #35...imo
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Number of recruits beyond 20 doesn't matter at all on Rivals. 247's rankings are a little more confusing but they're also weighted heavily towards the higher rated players in the class. By the time you get beyond 20 recruits, the number of recruits matters very little to the overall ranking.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Number of recruits beyond 20 doesn't matter at all on Rivals. 247's rankings are a little more confusing but they're also weighted heavily towards the higher rated players in the class. By the time you get beyond 20 recruits, the number of recruits matters very little to the overall ranking.
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Do you get anything right?
#36 Louisville 28 guys 2.71 avg
#38 WV 28 guys 2.64 avg
#40 Oregon State 26 guys 2.65 avg
#48 BYU 26 guys 2.58 avg
#50 Minnesota 21 guys 2.71 avg

Sure looks to me like more guys matters trumps average???
https://n.rivals.com/team_rankings/2016/all-teams/football
 

EG#9 said:
People have such short memories.

1. Brewster's first year, he went 1-11. It was during/after that same year he brought in the best recruiting class we'd had in the Rivals era. There is no reason to believe that Fleck's recruiting will suffer from this season. He's selling what his program will be, not what it is/was.

2. Brewster's second year he rebounded to a typical Mason season going 3-5 in conference play and playing in a minor bowl. This type of season has basically been Minnesota football for the last 20 years. That season would have been slightly better if not for an Eric Decker injury that significantly impacted our passing game. If Brewster could make that type of turnaround, there is no reason to believe Fleck could not.

3. For as much as Brewster gets bashed here, there were actually more of his recruits contributing to the Gophers teams in years 2&3 of the Kill regime than there were Mason recruits contributing to the Gopher teams in years 2&3 of the Brewster regime.

4. I feel like people who are angry at Fleck for what they perceive as him punting this year or for what they perceive as excuse making either a) honestly don't remember Jerry Kill's first year or b) are being knowingly hypocritical because they don't care for Fleck's personality. Here's a reminder: The Gophers lost to a historically bad New Mexico State team and North Dakota State at home. In their B1G opener Killl's squad then lost to Michigan 59-0. I believe it was a this point he went and whined to the administration about how bad things were and got a one year extension! All Coach Kill did was complain about things and lower expectations throughout that season. By comparison, Coach Fleck has actually been relatively cheery when talking about this team.
Click to expand...

I never thought I would see someone compare Fleck to Brewster to try to persuade people that the sky is not falling.

So, for all of you people who are worried that Fleck is going to stink, rest easy, Brewster followed a similar model :)
 

60's Guy said:
Do you get anything right?
#36 Louisville 28 guys 2.71 avg
#38 WV 28 guys 2.64 avg
#40 Oregon State 26 guys 2.65 avg
#48 BYU 26 guys 2.58 avg
#50 Minnesota 21 guys 2.71 avg

Sure looks to me like more guys matters trumps average???
https://n.rivals.com/team_rankings/2016/all-teams/football
Click to expand...

Maybe you should try and actually read how their formula works: https://n.rivals.com/news/rivals-com-football-team-recruiting-rankings-formula

What is the "team rankings" formula?

Rivals Rating points for a team's Top 20 rated commits + Rivals250 Bonus Points = Total Points
 


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