Penn State still trying to find ways to avoid taking THEIR medicine re Sandusky

In this case, the guilty have been punished. The most guilty of them is incarcerated, the one most responsible for the cover-up saw his entire world collapse around him, lost his will to live, and died, and many others have lost their job. The fact that the NCAA doesn't like feeling like they are doing nothing doesn't justify punishing the innocent.

...

Now if we want to talk about a more drastic punishment for Sandusky, there is not much I would not be willing to support doing to him for what he did to those poor kids.

I think what you are missing is that PSU created an environment that allowed this to happen and tried to cover it. As a result, the institution deserves to be punished. If I were the NCAA, I would have given them the death penalty. If I were the B1G, I would have kicked them out of the league. Even at that, it wouldn't be enough for the victims but such punishment would make it even less likely for something like this to happen again at PSU or anywhere else.

As far as your thoughts on Sandusky, I agree. It's a good thing for him that it wasn't up to me in terms of deciding his punishment.
 

In this case, the guilty have been punished. The most guilty of them is incarcerated, the one most responsible for the cover-up saw his entire world collapse around him, lost his will to live, and died, and many others have lost their job. The fact that the NCAA doesn't like feeling like they are doing nothing doesn't justify punishing the innocent.

No, there are still several criminal cases and many civil cases to be decided. Edit: I believe the Sandusky case is the only one decided so far. There are many many more to come.

People talk on and on about the punishment was too light or they should get the death penalty from the NCAA. It's as if people have forgotten we have a criminal justice system to handle these matters.

If afraid many people place too much importance on football, sports and the NCAA.

People try to compare this to SMU and their death penalty. These are two totally seperate types of offenses.

SMU broke NCAA rules.....not laws of society. PSU, and those involved, broke laws of the state and of our country......not NCAA rules.

Our criminal justice system has much more power and is much more important than the NCAA.
 

I also don't see much of a deterrent effect. I don't see the next Jerry Sandusky saying "well, the fear of a life-time jail sentence doesn't scare me, but I am not going to abuse these children because I don't want to risk my football team not being allowed to play in bowl games while I am in prison. I don't see the next Paterno saying "I don't care if I lose my job, but I am going to launch an investigation and report this behavior because I don't want me successor to have trouble finding recruits." The NCAA's actions was about responding to a horrible thing by feeling like they had to do something drastic, being unable to do anything to those responsible because they were incarcerated, deceased, or unemployed by a school under the NCAA's jurisdiction, and taking it out on those who did not molest children or help to cover it up. It is a natural and understandable response, but not a just one.

The bold is also spot on.
 

Understand your point. Don't know whether or not it would meet the legal definition of "blackmail".

I guess going back to the townhome association analogy, say someone started installing a canopy over their deck and the association caught them. The association showed you have to have permission to do this by the bylaws. They then followed up with saying they would almost certainly have granted permission if asked, then gave two options: you can either stop working, submit a request for permission, pay a $25 fee and once approved continue or if you don't we will hire someone to take it down, charge you their cost and a $100 fine. So long as both options are permissible under the association's bylaws, is that blackmail or is it more like a plea bargain, where if you cooperate we give you less punishment?

I'm not saying you are wrong, I just don't know. I believe that angle would be the only shot the legislators have of getting it overturned.

However, since the NCAA can have a vote at the annual fall meeting and punish for "any reason", even if the law suits are successful you have to wonder whether it's in PSU's best interest.

By the way, certainly not saying the NCAA is the bastion of righteousness... :)

Seriously? They try to blackmail me like that and take my canopy off of my deck and I will pull out my AR-15 with a 30 clip and mow them down. It's my property and I'll do what I want with it. 'merica!
 

SMU broke NCAA rules.....not laws of society. PSU, and those involved, broke laws of the state and of our country......not NCAA rules.

Our criminal justice system has much more power and is much more important than the NCAA.

Wrong and wrong again, Station 19. The most powerful people at Penn State (President, Athletics Director, Power Coach, and undoubtedly some members of the BOT) had the opportunity to protect who knows how many children from a sexual predator and they failed miserably to do it. They will all take their pathetic conduct in this matter to their graves. Paterno already has. What they failed to do was outrageous and unforgivable and the criminal justice system is not at all suited to the job of holding them and the institution that shielded and protected them accountable in such situations.

The NCAA took exactly the right action and Penn State should be extremely thankful they did it so quickly. Otherwise, Penn State would have had to spend spend at least a year or two waiting for the NCAA to complete their investigation and assess the penalties. The negative publicity Penn State would have had to endure while waiting for the NCAA would have been immeasurable and their football recruiting would have been all but destroyed because of the uncertainty surrounding the program. The majority of the BOT understood this and that is why they pushed the NCAA to accept the Freeh Report and penalize Penn State right away. They were trying to get this all behind them as quickly as possible.
 


Wrong and wrong again, Station 19. The most powerful people at Penn State (President, Athletics Director, Power Coach, and undoubtedly some members of the BOT) had the opportunity to protect who knows how many children from a sexual predator and they failed miserably to do it. They will all take their pathetic conduct in this matter to their graves. Paterno already has. What they failed to do was outrageous and unforgivable and the criminal justice system is not at all suited to the job of holding them and the institution that shields and protects them accountable in such situations.

The NCAA took exactly the right action and Penn State should be extremely thankful they did it so quickly. Otherwise, Penn State would have had to spend spend at least a year or two waiting for the NCAA to complete their investigation and assess the penalties. The negative publicity Penn State would have had to endure while waiting for the NCAA would have been immeasurable and their football recruiting would have been all but destroyed because of the uncertainty surrounding the program. The majority of the BOT understood this and that is why they pushed the NCAA to accept the Freeh Report and penalize Penn State right away. They were trying to get this all behind them as quickly as possible.

So our criminal justice system is inept and the the ncaa is all important.

The rest of you post is filled with assumptions, but then again you are the world's smartest person.
 

Wrong and wrong again, Station 19. The most powerful people at Penn State (President, Athletics Director, Power Coach, and undoubtedly some members of the BOT) had the opportunity to protect who knows how many children from a sexual predator and they failed miserably to do it. They will all take their pathetic conduct in this matter to their graves. Paterno already has. What they failed to do was outrageous and unforgivable and the criminal justice system is not at all suited to the job of holding them and the institution that shielded and protected them accountable in such situations.

The NCAA took exactly the right action and Penn State should be extremely thankful they did it so quickly. Otherwise, Penn State would have had to spend spend at least a year or two waiting for the NCAA to complete their investigation and assess the penalties. The negative publicity Penn State would have had to endure while waiting for the NCAA would have been immeasurable and their football recruiting would have been all but destroyed because of the uncertainty surrounding the program. The majority of the BOT understood this and that is why they pushed the NCAA to accept the Freeh Report and penalize Penn State right away. They were trying to get this all behind them as quickly as possible.

Absolutely correct. Penn State is being penalized by the NCAA because the institution developed a mindset that football was more important that the greater good of society. It was the institution of Penn State that allowed a cover-up because it did not want to harm the football program. That is why they were penalized.
 

PSU is pulling in a hell of a recruiting class given their situation. I am jealous of Penn State football.
 

Another example is the banks still getting fined by the SEC today due to things former employees did 5-6 years ago. Even though the banks may have fired those individuals for those actions, the institution is still responsible and has to pay the fines handed down by the SEC.
 



So our criminal justice system is inept and the the ncaa is all important. The rest of you post is filled with assumptions, but then again you are the world's smartest person.

Criminal trials require proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict a suspect. That is why so many criminals never go to prison for their crimes. It is highly likely that not any of the people working for Penn State who were in a position to stop Sandusky from abusing children will suffer anything but public embarrassment for their failures. That is why the NCAA needed to get involved and why the majority of the Penn State BOT were happy to have them do it. The public outrage against Penn State would have been off the charts if nobody got convicted and Penn State didn't get penalized for what happened. Sexual predators usually get away with their crimes for as long as they do because people who should know better fail to do the right thing.
 

I also don't see much of a deterrent effect. I don't see the next Jerry Sandusky saying "well, the fear of a life-time jail sentence doesn't scare me, but I am not going to abuse these children because I don't want to risk my football team not being allowed to play in bowl games while I am in prison. I don't see the next Paterno saying "I don't care if I lose my job, but I am going to launch an investigation and report this behavior because I don't want me successor to have trouble finding recruits."

Why would Paterno or any coach lose their job if they try to put a stop to something like this?

By not punishing Penn St. at all, it's like saying that it was okay for Penn St. to lose control and allow the football program to be the #1 priority.
 

Criminal trials require proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict a suspect. That is why so many criminals never go to prison for their crimes.

You're implying that this is a bad thing. It is the basis for our entire justice system.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" - Sir William Blackstone, 1765
 

Criminal trials require proof beyond a reasonable doubt to convict a suspect. That is why so many criminals never go to prison for their crimes. It is highly likely that not any of the people working for Penn State who were in a position to stop Sandusky from abusing children will suffer anything but public embarrassment for their failures. That is why the NCAA needed to get involved and why the majority of the Penn State BOT were happy to have them do it. The public outrage against Penn State would have been off the charts if nobody got convicted and Penn State didn't get penalized for what happened. Sexual predators usually get away with their crimes for as long as they do because people who should know better fail to do the right thing.

The keywords.
 



You're implying that this is a bad thing. It is the basis for our entire justice system.

"Better that ten guilty persons escape than that one innocent suffer" - Sir William Blackstone, 1765

But thank god we have the NCAA which is so much better/more fair/and more important.
 

So let's just say the NCAA would have done nothing to Penn State. What would be the incentive for other institutions from implementing measures to stop similar cases in the future? Penn State got away without a scratch, what do we care.

Because of what the NCAA imposed on Penn State, I know for a fact the U has put forth additional measures to ensure that type of stuff does not happen at the U.
 

So let's just say the NCAA would have done nothing to Penn State. What would be the incentive for other institutions from implementing measures to stop similar cases in the future? Penn State got away without a scratch, what do we care.

Because of what the NCAA imposed on Penn State, I know for a fact the U has put forth additional measures to ensure that type of stuff does not happen at the U.

1. Um the thought they(individuals) may very well go to prison and the institution will subject to huge financial claims should do it........more so than loss of schollys or bowl bans.

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/Justic...l-could-cost-Penn-State-more-than-100-million

"At least one unidentified male has already filed a lawsuit against the university for failing to protect him from Sandusky, Reuters reports. He is initially seeking more than $50,000 in damages, the standard amount in Pennsylvania courts to trigger a jury trial.

Legal analysts say Penn State would much prefer to head off victims’ civil lawsuits by offering compensation.

“The risks for Penn State in going through discovery and leaving a decision in the hands of a jury could be cataclysmic to the university,” says Chicago securities attorney Andrew Stoltmann, who predicts that the university "likely ... will have to shell out in excess of $100 million to resolve these claims.”


http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/05/nation/la-na-nn-sandusky-cost-penn-state-20120905

"It has cost Penn State almost $17 million in fees alone to deal with the fallout from the Jerry Sandusky child sex-abuse scandal, and the tab is expected to grow by tens of millions of dollars before the meter stops clicking."



2. Do you really think the U would do any less if the NCAA did nothing? Would they be completely oblivious to the legal system? Or are they too more concerned about scholarships and bowl games?
 

So let's just say the NCAA would have done nothing to Penn State. What would be the incentive for other institutions from implementing measures to stop similar cases in the future? Penn State got away without a scratch, what do we care.

Which do you think Penn St. cares more about? The 5-year football bowl ban or the civil settlements that will probably go into the billions? Your last statement (Penn St. got away without a scratch) shows that you're placing football on a pedestal and not looking at the entire picture. Football is trivial compared with everyday real life. It's a pastime. By giving a school football penalties for serious and horrible legal infractions, the NCAA has done the same. They're grasping for relevance in a situation where they have none. I'm quite certain that the U has put in "additional measures" because they don't want to be in a position to hand over billions of dollars to the families of rape victims, not because they care about a 5-year bowl ban.
 

Which do you think Penn St. cares more about? The 5-year football bowl ban or the civil settlements that will probably go into the billions? Your last statement (Penn St. got away without a scratch) shows that you're placing football on a pedestal and not looking at the entire picture. Football is trivial compared with everyday real life. It's a pastime. By giving a school football penalties for serious and horrible legal infractions, the NCAA has done the same. They're grasping for relevance in a situation where they have none. I'm quite certain that the U has put in "additional measures" because they don't want to be in a position to hand over billions of dollars to the families of rape victims, not because they care about a 5-year bowl ban.

I am not the one putting football on a pedestal. Penn State put it on a pedestal and didn't look at the entire picture. And that is why they are facing these sanctions from the NCAA. The NCAA doing what they can to punish the school for how they handled it. And to use the thought that "the people who did these things are not there anymore, so why punish the school" is just foolish. You are who your employees are.
 

I am not the one putting football on a pedestal. Penn State put it on a pedestal and didn't look at the entire picture. And that is why they are facing these sanctions from the NCAA. The NCAA doing what they can to punish the school for how they handled it. And to use the thought that "the people who did these things are not there anymore, so why punish the school" is just foolish. You are who your employees are.

I agree, it is foolish to make that argument. I'm not making that argument. The school is being punished, rightfully, by the courts. The NCAA has no jurisdiction and no business being involved in criminal matters whatsoever. How would people like it if the criminal and civil court systems got involved in the NCAA? What if they started prosecuting defensive players for battery every time they made a tackle? That makes as much sense as the NCAA getting involved in criminal matters.
 

If afraid many people place too much importance on football, sports and the NCAA.

Wow, you mean like the people who covered up a child molestor so their precious football program didn't get bad press?
 


I am not the one putting football on a pedestal. Penn State put it on a pedestal and didn't look at the entire picture. And that is why they are facing these sanctions from the NCAA. The NCAA doing what they can to punish the school for how they handled it. And to use the thought that "the people who did these things are not there anymore, so why punish the school" is just foolish. You are who your employees are.

I agree, it is foolish to make that argument. I'm not making that argument. The school is being punished, rightfully, by the courts. The NCAA has no jurisdiction and no business being involved in criminal matters whatsoever. How would people like it if the criminal and civil court systems got involved in the NCAA? What if they started prosecuting defensive players for battery every time they made a tackle? That makes as much sense as the NCAA getting involved in criminal matters.

The ideal scenerio IMO would have been for the State of Penn(Governor and or State Legislature) to impose football sanctions on PSU. Something the PSU board of trustees could have also done in conjunction with the State.

The State is ultimately responsible for the University. The State and PSU should have gotten in front of this and shown some remorse. This would maybe have kept the NCAA out of it...................too late for that now.
 

Your post makes absolutely no sense.

It made plenty of sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me is that you refuse to understand that Penn State representatives covered up child rape. You would have an argument that this was solely a criminal case if they were covering up a crime they committed. They did not cover up the crime to keep from going to jail they covered it up to protect Penn States reputation.....an undeserved reputation I might add.

Below I pasted the response of NCAA chair and Oregon President Ed Ray's position on why the NCAA was entitled to impose punishment....pay close attention to the parts in bold.

Executive Committee Chair, Oregon State President Ed Ray
The historically unprecedented actions by the NCAA today are warranted by the conspiracy of silence that was maintained at the highest levels of the university in reckless and callous disregard for the children. There is incredible interest in what will happen to Penn State football. But, the fundamental story of this horrific chapter should focus on the innocent children and the powerful people who let them down.

There has also been much speculation on whether or not the NCAA has the authority to impose any type of penalty related to Penn State.

Not only does the NCAA have the authority to act in this case, we also have the responsibility to say that such egregious behavior is not only against our bylaws and Constitution, but also against our values system and basic human decency.

The Executive Committee, which acts on behalf of the entire Association and implements policies to resolve core issues -- along with the Division I Board, a body of presidents representing all of Division I -- directed President Emmert to examine the circumstances surrounding the Penn State tragedy and if appropriate, make recommendations regarding punitive and corrective measures.

As a result of information produced from the Sandusky criminal investigation and the Freeh report, which Penn State commissioned and also agreed to its findings, it became obvious that the leadership failures at Penn State over an extended period of time directly violated Association bylaws and the NCAA Constitution relating to control over the athletic department, integrity and ethical conduct.

The corrective and punitive measures the Executive Committee and the Division I Board of Directors have authorized should serve as a stark wake up call to everyone involved in college sports that our first responsibility, as outlined in our Constitution, is to adhere to the fundamental values of respect, fairness, civility, honesty and responsibility.
I’ll now turn to President Emmert to discuss today’s actions and what is expected of Penn State in the future…President Emmert.

NCAA President Mark Emmert
The Penn State case has provoked in all of us deeply powerful emotions and shaken our most fundamental confidence in many ways. As we – the Executive Committee, the Division I Board and I – have examined and discussed this case, we have kept foremost in our thoughts the tragic damage that has been done to the victims and their families.

No matter what we do here, there is no action we can take that will remove their pain and anguish. But, what we can do is impose sanctions that both reflect the magnitude of these terrible acts and that also ensure Penn State will rebuild an athletic culture that went horribly awry.

Our goal is not to just to be punitive, but to make sure the University establishes an athletic culture and daily mindset in which football will never again be placed ahead of educating, nurturing, and protecting young people.

More than 100 years ago, the NCAA was created to assure that sports are fully integrated into our colleges and universities and that athletic programs wholly embrace the values of higher education.

Our Constitution and bylaws make it perfectly clear that the Association exists not simply to promote fair play on the field, but to insist that athletics programs provide positive moral models for our students, enhance the integrity of higher education, and promote the values of civility, honesty and responsibility. The sanctions we are imposing are based upon these most fundamental principles of the NCAA.With these intentions in mind, the Executive Committee, the Division I Board and I have agreed to the following sanctions.

First, the NCAA is imposing a fine of $60 million upon the University with the funds to be used to establish an endowment to support programs around the nation that serve the victims of child sexual abuse and seek to prevent such abuse from happening. This amount is the equivalent to one year’s gross revenue by the football team.

Second, Penn State football will be banned from bowl games and any other post-season play for four years.

Third, the Penn State football team will have its initial scholarships reduced from 25 to 15 for a period of four years.

In order to minimize the negative impact on student-athletes, the NCAA will allow any entering or returning football student-athletes to transfer and immediately compete at the transfer university, provided he is otherwise eligible.

Further, any football student-athlete who wants to remain at Penn State may retain his athletic grant-in-aid as long as he meets and maintains applicable academic requirements, regardless of whether he competes on the football team.

Fourth, the NCAA vacates all wins of the Penn State football team from 1998 to 2011 and the records will reflect these changes.

Fifth, the University’s athletic program will serve a five-year period of probation, during which it must work with an Academic Integrity monitor of the Association’s choosing.

Finally, the NCAA is reserving the right to initiate a formal investigatory and disciplinary process and to impose sanctions on individuals involved in this case after the conclusion of any criminal proceedings.

Beyond these sanctions, the NCAA is imposing other corrective actions to ensure that the intended change of culture actually occurs.

The NCAA is requiring that the University adopt the reforms delineated in Chapter 10 of the Freeh Report, particularly Section 5.0.

Additionally, the Association is requiring that Penn State enter into an “Athletic Integrity Agreement” with the NCAA and the Big Ten conference. This Agreement will require the establishment of a Chief Compliance Officer position, a Compliance Council and an array of control mechanisms that are intended to ensure the athletic culture will be fully integrated into the broader university.

And finally, the NCAA will select an independent Athletics Integrity Monitor who will, for a five-year period, report quarterly to the NCAA, the University’s Board of Trustees, and the Big Ten Conference on the progress Penn State is making in implementing all the provisions of the agreement

Let me also address the issue of the so-called “death penalty.” The Executive Committee, the Division I Board and I had extensive discussions about the appropriateness of imposing a suspension of the football program for one or more years.

An argument can be made that the egregiousness of the behavior in this case is greater than any other seen in NCAA history and that therefore a multi-year suspension is warranted. After much debate, however, we concluded that sanctions needed to reflect our goal of driving cultural change as much as apply punitive actions.

Suspension of the football program would bring with it significant unintended harm to many who had nothing to do with this case. The sanctions we have crafted are more focused and impactful than a blanket penalty.

Moreover, the actions already taken by the new Chair of the Board of Trustees, Karen Peetz, and the new President, Rodney Erickson, have demonstrated a strong desire and determination to take the steps necessary for Penn State to right these severe wrongs.

For the next several years Penn State can focus on the work of rebuilding its athletics culture, not worrying about whether or not it is going to a bowl game. With the sanctions imposed today and the new leadership of the University we hope, indeed we intend to ensure that is the case.

In closing, let me say that this case involves tragic and tragically unnecessary circumstances. One of the grave dangers stemming from our love of sports is that the sports themselves can become “too big to fail,” or even too big to challenge.

The result can be an erosion of academic values that are replaced by the value of hero worship and winning at all costs. All involved in intercollegiate athletics must be watchful that programs and individuals do not overwhelm the values of higher education.

In the Penn State case, the results were perverse and unconscionable. No price the NCAA can levy will repair the grievous damage inflicted by Jerry Sandusky on his victims.

However, we can make clear that the culture, actions, and inactions that allowed them to be victimized will not be tolerated in collegiate athletics.
 

Why would Paterno or any coach lose their job if they try to put a stop to something like this?

By not punishing Penn St. at all, it's like saying that it was okay for Penn St. to lose control and allow the football program to be the #1 priority.

I was saying that if fear of being fired was not enough to inspire a coach to launch an investigation, then fear of being fired plus fear of sanctions on his team after he is fired will not change anything.
 

I agree, it is foolish to make that argument. I'm not making that argument. The school is being punished, rightfully, by the courts. The NCAA has no jurisdiction and no business being involved in criminal matters whatsoever. How would people like it if the criminal and civil court systems got involved in the NCAA? What if they started prosecuting defensive players for battery every time they made a tackle? That makes as much sense as the NCAA getting involved in criminal matters.

With how well-reasoned your arguments always are, it is refreshing to finally be in agreement with you on something dpod.
 

It made plenty of sense to me. What doesn't make sense to me is that you refuse to understand that Penn State representatives covered up child rape. You would have an argument that this was solely a criminal case if they were covering up a crime they committed. They did not cover up the crime to keep from going to jail they covered it up to protect Penn States reputation.....an undeserved reputation I might add. .

Are you that effing stupid?

Though I don't feel I should need to explain......the "people that place too much importance on the NCAA" comment was in reference to those people 'on the outside of the situation', who seem only concerned about NCAA sanctions and forget or don't realize there is a criminal and civil process to this matter.
 

Are you that effing stupid?

Though I don't feel I should need to explain......the "people that place too much importance on the NCAA" comment was in reference to those people 'on the outside of the situation', who seem only concerned about NCAA sanctions and forget or don't realize there is a criminal and civil process to this matter.

Do you always get this silly when someone takes an opposing view? The NCAA sanctions, the criminal process and the civil process are three separate entities. A stupid person would not understand why you would want them to be an either or deal. Unfortunate for you old smart one, all three will apply, Sandusky will spend the rest of his sorry life in prison (I'm sure you're for that), Penn State will be sued to the tune of hundreds of millions (I'm sure you don't care about that either) and most/best of all.......the Penn State football program will suffer (which will cause great pain to idiots who put sports programs above innocent children being raped).

Pretty good for a stupid guy...huh?;)
 


Do you always get this silly when someone takes an opposing view? The NCAA sanctions, the criminal process and the civil process are three separate entities. A stupid person would not understand why you would want them to be an either or deal. Unfortunate for you old smart one, all three will apply, Sandusky will spend the rest of his sorry life in prison (I'm sure you're for that), Penn State will be sued to the tune of hundreds of millions (I'm sure you don't care about that either) and most/best of all.......the Penn State football program will suffer (which will cause great pain to idiots who put sports programs above innocent children being raped).

Pretty good for a stupid guy...huh?;)

Do you have any reading comprehension skills at all?
 





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