Payne in portal (UPDATED: Payne commits to Texas A&M)

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Dave H said:
Ben's days are numbered...a year from now he won't be coach the question now is how many days are in that number? Saying it isn't his fault is disingenuous...he got credit for bringing in Payne and now he is gone.

The only reason people really had to for sure want him back was to keep the team together...that ain't happening. He can't even keep local guys here. We are going to be in constant rebuild mode with this guy...
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He actually could get fired over this. I have to think that's on the table. There is a scenario here where he loses Christie, Payne, Garcia, Ola Joseph and Carrington. How do you recruit to deal with an exodus like that if part of the problem is not enough NIL money. It would cost more to bring in their equal replacements than to keep them. So the bottom line is we could be faced with bringing in average players. Back to last place we go.
 


Dave H said:
Ben's days are numbered...a year from now he won't be coach the question now is how many days are in that number? Saying it isn't his fault is disingenuous...he got credit for bringing in Payne and now he is gone.

The only reason people really had to for sure want him back was to keep the team together...that ain't happening. He can't even keep local guys here. We are going to be in constant rebuild mode with this guy...
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So the real question becomes - is there a coach we could hire that wouldn't have the same issues retaining players year to year?

I mean if the roster is going to implode this off season then there is no real reason not to make a change. But will the change actually solve anything or will we be right back in the same spot every off season just praying we can hang onto players.

The sad part it that right now the best strategy is probably to hire a coach who will bring a bunch of quality players with him and just be prepared to do it again in a couple of years. What a mess.
 

bga1 said:
Where it is at right now:

If all you have to offer is playing time- you get average players.
If you are a proven winner, you can attract players if you get close on NIL.
If you are a proven winner, it is probably much easier to attract NIL money.
If you haven't been a proven winner- it's a major uphill climb unless some local wants to be the hero and bail the program out with a big shot of NIL money.
In this landscape- the NIL money is going to be bigger than having a great coach- but the great coach is going to get the NIL.

We are likely the loser in all scenarios and that's not Ben's fault.
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The NIL situation is not his fault. That's correct. But NIL follows excitement in a program. One of my biggest complaints about Ben is his incessant need to always downplay expectations. "Culture" and "building a program the right way" and "patience" doesn't inspire me to make any donations. Too many "ifs" and "as long as" to inspire confidence, in my view.

Big picture.....If you took the combined production of Payne/JOJ/Carrington plus the two that ran out of eligibility and compared that to the combined production of players many teams in the NCAA tournament will lose to graduation/transfers this spring, it probably wouldn't look much different. But yet our collective fanbase is devastated. Why? Maybe because many of us recognize how long the odds are with the guy currently in charge to overcome.
 

MNVCGUY said:
So the real question becomes - is there a coach we could hire that wouldn't have the same issues retaining players year to year?

I mean if the roster is going to implode this off season then there is no real reason not to make a change. But will the change actually solve anything or will we be right back in the same spot every off season just praying we can hang onto players.

The sad part it that right now the best strategy is probably to hire a coach who will bring a bunch of quality players with him and just be prepared to do it again in a couple of years. What a mess.
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You criticized anyone who disagreed with cbj strategy of "build" for longer term.
The train was barreling down the tracks when cbj was hired and you and others wouldn't accept the inevitability of portal recruitment. Here we are.
Lack of administrative leadership in all facets of bb program. Poor decision making. Putrid performance by the "leadership " of this university.
 


MNVCGUY said:
So the real question becomes - is there a coach we could hire that wouldn't have the same issues retaining players year to year?

I mean if the roster is going to implode this off season then there is no real reason not to make a change. But will the change actually solve anything or will we be right back in the same spot every off season just praying we can hang onto players.

The sad part it that right now the best strategy is probably to hire a coach who will bring a bunch of quality players with him and just be prepared to do it again in a couple of years. What a mess.
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I dunno. Normally I would say sure there is but the landscape is so stupid now I am not sure how anything works anymore. In theory the right coach would inspire fans to care more and maybe shell out some money but I am not sure who that coach is

I think the only way this is going to work for schools like ours (that likely will never have the money to truly compete) is to find a coach who knows how to build through the portal and can adapt to players moving on regularly. Maybe a system guy, a guy who can basically plug and play. I honestly don't know...but I do know that I don't trust Ben to be that guy. Ben I could buy as a "keep the team together for 4 years to make a run" type of coach but he has shown zero ability to put together a roster that makes sense in the short term.
 

golfing18now said:
The NIL situation is not his fault. That's correct. But NIL follows excitement in a program. One of my biggest complaints about Ben is his incessant need to always downplay expectations. "Culture" and "building a program the right way" and "patience" doesn't inspire me to make any donations. Too many "ifs" and "as long as" to inspire confidence, in my view.

Big picture.....If you took the combined production of Payne/JOJ/Carrington plus the two that ran out of eligibility and compared that to the combined production of players many teams in the NCAA tournament will lose to graduation/transfers this spring, it probably wouldn't look much different. But yet our collective fanbase is devastated. Why? Maybe because many of us recognize how long the odds are with the guy currently in charge to overcome.
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I 100% agree. It's not Ben's fault. He took a job that was highly paid but way over his head in terms of selling a program in this atmosphere (pay to play). He did what anyone would do. His bottom up build a program strategy might have worked 5-10 years ago and maybe he was about to have success next year- but he was the wrong coach for this time. That, to me, is 100% on the administration and they did nothing to go out and get him backing behind the scenes once they hired him. Coyle should be fired and I am the first to say that he wasn't the guy you decided to hire Ben. He should have had the stones to say no to the administration. Period.

We need a coach who is a proven winner and can promote the program. Unless some angel comes in and saves Payne, Garcia, Christie and Hawkins- we are toast for next year.
 

bga1 said:
Rick Pitino's idea was the right one. Set up a salary cap per team and let the schools pay the money. Otherwise the sport is going to be ruined- if it hasn't been already. I am sickened by what has happened to college sports.
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A salary cap would require collective bargaining. Otherwise it's collusion and would lose in the courts.
 

bga1 said:
He actually could get fired over this. I have to think that's on the table. There is a scenario here where he loses Christie, Payne, Garcia, Ola Joseph and Carrington. How do you recruit to deal with an exodus like that if part of the problem is not enough NIL money. It would cost more to bring in their equal replacements than to keep them. So the bottom line is we could be faced with bringing in average players. Back to last place we go.
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I gotta imagine there is discussions about this going on...I have no idea what the U will think about it though. But if Payne and Ben talked about it last week then my guess is if the U was thinking about making a move they have already put out feelers. I just have no clue who wants the job or who they would pay to take it.

I mean lets go back to the guys everyone wanted last round...would that excite the fanbase at all?
 



Dave H said:
I dunno. Normally I would say sure there is but the landscape is so stupid now I am not sure how anything works anymore. In theory the right coach would inspire fans to care more and maybe shell out some money but I am not sure who that coach is

I think the only way this is going to work for schools like ours (that likely will never have the money to truly compete) is to find a coach who knows how to build through the portal and can adapt to players moving on regularly. Maybe a system guy, a guy who can basically plug and play. I honestly don't know...but I do know that I don't trust Ben to be that guy. Ben I could buy as a "keep the team together for 4 years to make a run" type of coach but he has shown zero ability to put together a roster that makes sense in the short term.
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I honestly don't know what I would do as an AD in this current landscape. Maybe hire a successful mid major coach with some players ready to come with him and then hope he can sustain it for a few years?

In the end it really isn't about fans buying into the pay for play system. Have to find some big wig donors ready to throw their money away in hopes of helping their team win. That kind of mentality is common in some parts of the country but it isn't really a midwest thing and it definitely isn't a Minnesota thing.
 

If this team was winning... N.I.L. wouldn't be an issue. Bring in a proven coach, start winning, the $$ will come
 

MNVCGUY said:
I honestly don't know what I would do as an AD in this current landscape. Maybe hire a successful mid major coach with some players ready to come with him and then hope he can sustain it for a few years?

In the end it really isn't about fans buying into the pay for play system. Have to find some big wig donors ready to throw their money away in hopes of helping their team win. That kind of mentality is common in some parts of the country but it isn't really a midwest thing and it definitely isn't a Minnesota thing.
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I mean I can't even really name a lot of the big money alums out side of the guys who had scholarship programs for football.
 

bga1 said:
I 100% agree. It's not Ben's fault. He took a job that was highly paid but way over his head in terms of selling a program in this atmosphere (pay to play). He did what anyone would do. His bottom up build a program strategy might have worked 5-10 years ago and maybe he was about to have success next year- but he was the wrong coach for this time. That, to me, is 100% on the administration and they did nothing to go out and get him backing behind the scenes once they hired him. Coyle should be fired and I am the first to say that he wasn't the guy you decided to hire Ben. He should have had the stones to say no to the administration. Period.

We need a coach who is a proven winner and can promote the program. Unless some angel comes in and saves Payne, Garcia, Christie and Hawkins- we are toast for next year.
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The coach is responsible for getting and keeping players. Fair or not... Ben doesn't do either very well and we know he can't coach.
 



Any chance any of the players in question will still return?
 

MNVCGUY said:
I honestly don't know what I would do as an AD in this current landscape. Maybe hire a successful mid major coach with some players ready to come with him and then hope he can sustain it for a few years?

In the end it really isn't about fans buying into the pay for play system. Have to find some big wig donors ready to throw their money away in hopes of helping their team win. That kind of mentality is common in some parts of the country but it isn't really a midwest thing and it definitely isn't a Minnesota thing.
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Whatever coach you have, the big hitters want more than hope- they want to feel SURE that the investment will bring wins. They have to believe in the guy at the helm. At this point which of us would bet money on Ben pulling this off. To be clear- I don't blame Ben. He took the money. Now his players are taking the money. That's the circus that amateur college basketball has become.
 

The lack of guidance and sideboards surrounding NIL has ruined college sports for me. My interest in NCAA D-1 athletics is near zero under this 'system.'

There are no major donors here in MN who will step up to the plate under this sort of wild west scenario to donate to NIL. Most Minnesotans are financially stingy under the best of circumstances. They sure aren't going to be coerced to pay 'amateur' college athletes for the right to watch them play a game when they can just support the pro teams.

Power 5 teams in markets without the competition of pro teams will likely survive. Those in major markets will struggle.
 


The no-sit transfer rule is the worst thing to ever happen to college sports. Worse than NIL. Worse than mega-conferences. And why? Why was this rule dropped??? This is going to erode fan bases all over the country and the eyeballs and $$ are going to drop. It’s idiotic.
 

My initial reaction this morning was that Minnesota was done as a program, but has anyone else been seeing the kids entering the portal today - so many good players leaving their teams! I am sure message boards across the country are blowing up like ours today. I dont know the answer to this mess, but its just the wild west
 


bga1 said:
Whatever coach you have, the big hitters want more than hope- they want to feel SURE that the investment will bring wins. They have to believe in the guy at the helm. At this point which of us would bet money on Ben pulling this off. To be clear- I don't blame Ben. He took the money. Now his players are taking the money. That's the circus that amateur college basketball has become.
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I don't disagree, I just don't know who we could realistically hire that would move the needle that much in the pay for play money department.
 

GopherJake said:
The no-sit transfer rule is the worst thing to ever happen to college sports. Worse than NIL. Worse than mega-conferences. And why? Why was this rule dropped??? This is going to erode fan bases all over the country and the eyeballs and $$ are going to drop. It’s idiotic.
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+1,000,000 - the best fix in all of this is to go back to making guys sit a year if they want to transfer. But at this point they probably can't go back because there would be lawsuits and court battles if they tried.
 

Border Gopher said:
Of course there is a chance. There is also a chance Lloyd gets to play with Mary's hooters. Well, unless Harry beats him to the punch
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Fair enough. Just thinking back to the late Bobby Bowden. Soon enough, we'll find out who our real competition is (and the the terms).
 

billytwoshoes said:
My initial reaction this morning was that Minnesota was done as a program, but has anyone else been seeing the kids entering the portal today - so many good players leaving their teams! I am sure message boards across the country are blowing up like ours today. I dont know the answer to this mess, but its just the wild west
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The number of athletes competing in this year’s NCAA tournament that have made not one, not 2, but 3 and 4 stops in their college careers is alarming, shocking and destructive. It’s only good for top-tier programs. They have fucked it all up with this. Student-athletes my ass.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
OK - let's say the coach is the problem.

so MN just needs to find the right coach. A coach who will willingly agree to come to MN under the current circumstances.

being honest - MN is a program that has not been relevant in the conference, let alone nationally, for 25 years under multiple coaches. now, you add in the portal and NIL. and you add an 18-team conference. MN may be a member of the B1G - one of the more powerful conferences in college sports - but in basketball terms, MN is just not relevant.

So all Coyle has to do is find the right coach who can cope with all of that, and make the program relevant.

Oh - and MN has to be willing to pay a salary that will make that coach agree to come to MN, knowing all of the challenges it presents.

"Hire the right coach" sounds simple. It's not. It's easy to type on a message board. it's a lot harder to pull off in real life.
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This is all true...doesn't mean it's wrong. It might take multiple years and multiple coaches but you need to find that guy. It's not impossible trust me. Just because it's tough didn't mean you shouldn't do it. We know CBJ is bad, why keep that going?
 

MNVCGUY said:
I don't disagree, I just don't know who we could realistically hire that would move the needle that much in the pay for play money department.
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This day has been coming for a year. Everyone knew that we would need to pay these guys to keep them a year ago. I heard the coach say it. The fact that the administration is not prepared to compete (so it appears) by talking to their big donors about this and convincing them- is just insane. Here we are. They hired an inexperienced, learn on the job coach and they failed to give him the support needed. That's massive malpractice.
 

saw this in another thread - a post from Ryan James (can't copy it to here)

talking about the Carrington decision, James said (quoting)

This one was the wildest of all when I learned. Braeden thinks he should be making way more NIL money and that is the front of this, plus he thinks he should be getting more opportunity. Braeden, JOJ and Pharrel have basically become a group of three that have been talking for a long time about not getting what they have earned.

so it sounds like a group decision. really sad IF some disgruntled players are convincing other guys to jump the ship with them.

but if players are going to say - give me more money and more playing time or I leave - then a coach is really in a bad place.
 

billytwoshoes said:
My initial reaction this morning was that Minnesota was done as a program, but has anyone else been seeing the kids entering the portal today - so many good players leaving their teams! I am sure message boards across the country are blowing up like ours today. I dont know the answer to this mess, but its just the wild west
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Everyone who can play now wants to get paid. The question is, have we organized a way to pay them? If not- we are done as a program until we do. You can be the best company in the world to work for but if you don't pay the going rate- you will have crap employees.
 

He was good. He also had major holes in his game.

An upgrade to a player that can do more would be nice. I doubt Gophers get that guy.

Garcia has to come back or that would be super major.

Also: Gophers are limited for NIL. Only so much to go around.
 

bga1 said:
This day has been coming for a year. Everyone knew that we would need to pay these guys to keep them a year ago. I heard the coach say it. The fact that the administration is not prepared to compete (so it appears) by talking to their big donors about this and convincing them- is just insane. Here we are. They hired an inexperienced, learn on the job coach and they failed to give him the support needed. That's massive malpractice.
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How would suggest the AD "convince" big money donors to donate? Let's assume there are some and they are interested, how is Coyle going to get them to do so when they wouldn't before. It isn't like we can offer them anything of value they have to want to give money...and they never have.

I would agree with you if we were a team that had success and we were still falling behind. But they can barely convince me to give NIL money because of how little faith I have in the team and college sports in general...why would some big wig who probably never steps foot on campus care?

Sorry you can blame Coyle and Company for a lot...but I am not sure this is one those things. Unless the pitch is "throw in some money and we will can Ben" they really can't barter much.
 
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