***OFFICIAL wisconsin AT MINNESOTA SENIOR NIGHT (JOHNSON'S LAST HOME GAME?) IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

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I turn that game off thinking one thing. Do the Gophers coaches watch tape of that game and wonder "maybe we should try a little of that motion concept, you know, have a guy cut to the hole every once in a while? It seems to work for them." Don't give me any excuse regarding athleticism. They were cutting with 7 footers, along with everyone else. The ONLY ones on our team who attempted to cut were Rigsby (successfully) and Asuma (unsuccessfully) and they only did it a handful of times. Five out stand around offense is used by far more than just UMN, but it is offensive regardless.
 

CentralGopher said:
Locking down the border is what Ben was hired to do. Record aside Ben failed in what he was hired for. Zero reason to keep him another year.
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Well, as he just pointed out we aren't getting the "5 star" recruits or the "4 star recruits". We are scraping lower and lower talent levels within the state. We are lucky with "4 star" recruits from out of state and that is winnowing down as we keep losing the in-state "4 star recruits".
 

Bayfieldgopher said:
No its more than Blackwell and Tonje. Its about Mn players who are clearly legitimate BIG players who shun staying home. I would gladly take these kids as Gophers. I get it that we cant get them all but kids staying home like Asuma, Perich, etc. make a clear statement that playing for the Gophers matters. Somehow we have failed in that regard. Some one more in tune to our failure can list those who got away. I know NIL, etc is a big disparity and a significant factor in our demise.

Would it have mattered? In the scheme of things probably not. But it does send a message. Players like Asuma, Perich Lindenberg, Johnson, Gopher hockey players, ladies basketball, etc need to be commended for their loyalty. Stay home and play for the home team.
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that has to do with a team that sucks (and has) coupled with poor NIL and zero history over the last 2 decades competing with a Wisconsin team who has invested in basketball and has a recent history (since these kids were alive which is all that matters) of:

since 2000 (which is a post final four season for WI btw)

Final Fours: WI 2, MN 0
NCAA tournaments WI 22 (out of 25), MN 6
Conference regular season titles WI 6, MN 0
Conference winning records WI 21 MN 3

And still, next years WI recruiting class has 8 D1 guys with 6 committed to high majors. 2 are going to WI and one has a brother on the team. Year before that had 2 high majors, 0 went to WI. Year before, 1 high major didn't go to WI.

MN recruiting had 2 high majors, neither for the Gophers. year prior had 6 and we landed 1. year prior we were 0/2.

Neither of these states is "fertile" recruiting ground year after year and the recruiting game has changed dramatically with the AAU circuits and player exposure to travelling, coaches, etc.

The longer we live in this world where we think the only way forward is to land every MN recruit the worse off we're going to be. I hope the new coach we hire moves forward with that expectation and we stop with this "one of us" type stuff in basketball. Pay the best coach you can land and invest in the team. A rocking Barn still is one of the most fun tickets in town.
 

upnorthkid said:
He averages 2 points.
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With Klesmit out, Janicki is the next man up. His ppg average is because he’s the 5th guard normally. He’s very serviceable as a freshman walk-on, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him get major minutes next year with who Wisconsin graduates.
 


formerlybis said:
With Klesmit out, Janicki is the next man up. His ppg average is because he’s the 5th guard normally. He’s very serviceable as a freshman walk-on, and it wouldn’t surprise me to see him get major minutes next year with who Wisconsin graduates.
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I'm not trying to say he's not serviceable and given our lack of guards, he would definitely be one that would've been nice to have (particularly given he was comfortable redshirting last year). I'm just saying this is not like this was some massive miss as compared with say Crowl, who's been very good for 3-4 years.

If we ran a system that wasn't terrible, we'd probably make a lot more guards of his size and speed look pretty good though. He made one good looking jumper and 2 layups last night on wide open basket cuts. Can absolutely see why guys would rather go there.
 

Ewert86PC said:
Well, as he just pointed out we aren't getting the "5 star" recruits or the "4 star recruits". We are scraping lower and lower talent levels within the state. We are lucky with "4 star" recruits from out of state and that is winnowing down as we keep losing the in-state "4 star recruits".
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Make no mistake, you can win with 3- and 4-star recruits. What a 5-star recruit does for you is put you in the national title conversation. For instance, when Wisconsin has had a 5-star on their roster (Brian Butch, Sam Dekker), those were the teams that were ranked in the top 5 and made a run at the championship.

What you need is good-enough talent and good-enough coaching. In our case, the former is subordinate to the latter. We have multiple 4-stars on the roster, including a high 4-star in Garcia. Greg Gard would coach this roster to a winning conference record.
 
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GopherPoke said:
I turn that game off thinking one thing. Do the Gophers coaches watch tape of that game and wonder "maybe we should try a little of that motion concept, you know, have a guy cut to the hole every once in a while? It seems to work for them." Don't give me any excuse regarding athleticism. They were cutting with 7 footers, along with everyone else. The ONLY ones on our team who attempted to cut were Rigsby (successfully) and Asuma (unsuccessfully) and they only did it a handful of times. Five out stand around offense is used by far more than just UMN, but it is offensive regardless.
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This is nothing new and is discussed ad nauseum, but it does bear repeating: UW knows what they're doing, and they recruit to it. They look for size and skill (free throw shooting!) and guys who are light enough on their feet that they can be taught to play position defense. They've shown they can win that way, so they become a top choice of midwest guys with those characteristics. They have a good thing going. The good news is that it's a model that can be emulated. What you need, however, is cracker-jack coaching. Wisconsin has that.
 

upnorthkid said:
And still, next years WI recruiting class has 8 D1 guys with 6 committed to high majors. 2 are going to WI and one has a brother on the team. Year before that had 2 high majors, 0 went to WI. Year before, 1 high major didn't go to WI.
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I've done that a bunch of times showing where players sign from wisconsin, iowa, and the dakotas, and posted it here.

And I also looked at more "fertile" grounds like Ohio and Virginia. Same story. Most kids want to get away.

The only states I've really seen a majority of kids staying in-state are Texas and California, and that may have to do with the sheer number of schools in each state.

But no one listens...
 



golfing18now said:
Maybe an 18 year kid just wants to try something else? I just don't understand why we still care so much about this "locking down the border".

Wisconsin hasn't drawn away the elite NBA level Minnesota kids like Suggs/Jones/Holmgren. They have pulled kids like Crowl/Illikainen/Wahl/Winter that develop into nice players but primarily because Wisconsin does a far better job developing players and their offensive/defensive sets just look so much better than what we throw out there. How many wide open lay-ups and dunks did Wisconsin have last night? Gard >>>> Johnson. It really starts there. It's not because Crowl "shunned" Minnesota. Minnesota provincialism is what got us Ben Johnson.
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Locking the boarders is not a thing for any school or any state in college basketball. It’s a made up storyline. Year in and year out the top players don’t stay home in most states.
 

Someone would have to explain to me like I'm a 6 year old:

that has to do with a team that sucks (and has) coupled with poor NIL and zero history over the last 2 decades competing with a Wisconsin team who has invested in basketball and has a recent history (since these kids were alive which is all that matters) of:

since 2000 (which is a post final four season for WI btw)

Final Fours: WI 2, MN 0
NCAA tournaments WI 22 (out of 25), MN 6
Conference regular season titles WI 6, MN 0
Conference winning records WI 21 MN 3

And still, next years WI recruiting class has 8 D1 guys with 6 committed to high majors. 2 are going to WI and one has a brother on the team. Year before that had 2 high majors, 0 went to WI. Year before, 1 high major didn't go to WI.

MN recruiting had 2 high majors, neither for the Gophers. year prior had 6 and we landed 1. year prior we were 0/2.
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Why people think we're some sort of an elite program that a coach would desire to come to. It is really too bad about Johnson. It seems to me that he would be invested in the long term success of the basketball program unlike others who would use this as another jumping point.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
Locking the boarders is not a thing for any school or any state in college basketball. It’s a made up storyline. Year in and year out the top players don’t stay home in most states.
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I don’t disagree. Ben’s relationship with AAU was a big reason he was hired since Pitino did not have a good one with them. The hope was Ben could do much better with local recruits and unfortunately that has been a failure thus far. The one local relationship Ben has improved during his tenure appears to be with the local media that is defending him currently. Not what I would call an important relationship.
 
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golfing18now said:
Maybe an 18 year kid just wants to try something else? I just don't understand why we still care so much about this "locking down the border".

Wisconsin hasn't drawn away the elite NBA level Minnesota kids like Suggs/Jones/Holmgren. They have pulled kids like Crowl/Illikainen/Wahl/Winter that develop into nice players but primarily because Wisconsin does a far better job developing players and their offensive/defensive sets just look so much better than what we throw out there. How many wide open lay-ups and dunks did Wisconsin have last night? Gard >>>> Johnson. It really starts there. It's not because Crowl "shunned" Minnesota. Minnesota provincialism is what got us Ben Johnson.
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This...Crowl, Winter would stagnate in the Ben 5 high system.
 



upnorthkid said:
I'm not trying to say he's not serviceable and given our lack of guards, he would definitely be one that would've been nice to have (particularly given he was comfortable redshirting last year). I'm just saying this is not like this was some massive miss as compared with say Crowl, who's been very good for 3-4 years.

If we ran a system that wasn't terrible, we'd probably make a lot more guards of his size and speed look pretty good though. He made one good looking jumper and 2 layups last night on wide open basket cuts. Can absolutely see why guys would rather go there.
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I think you get this, but there have been a myriad of Badger players from MN who aren't really viewed as "misses". Yet they end up as multi-year starters on really successful teams. Nolan Winter is the next in line of these guys - is he a star/difference maker? Not really yet, but he's at least "solid B10 starter" and is a miss (especially considering he's a legacy).
 
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GopherPoke said:
I turn that game off thinking one thing. Do the Gophers coaches watch tape of that game and wonder "maybe we should try a little of that motion concept, you know, have a guy cut to the hole every once in a while? It seems to work for them." Don't give me any excuse regarding athleticism. They were cutting with 7 footers, along with everyone else. The ONLY ones on our team who attempted to cut were Rigsby (successfully) and Asuma (unsuccessfully) and they only did it a handful of times. Five out stand around offense is used by far more than just UMN, but it is offensive regardless.
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He ran motion his first year here and looked decent with a makeshift roster. I was thinking: "Just wait till he gets some players for these sets." So much for that. Motion offense went David Copperfield and became offensive.
 

formerlybis said:
I think you get this, but there have been a myriad of Badger players from MN who aren't really viewed as "misses". Yet they end up as multi-year starters on really successful teams. Nolan Winter is the next in line of these guys - is he a star/difference maker? Not really yet, but he's at least "solid B10 starter" and is a miss (especially considering he's a legacy).
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agreed for sure. was going to list winter but thought Crowl, to this point, made the point better.
 

Watched the end of the Gopher game and a major reason was their poor FT shooting.

HOW CAN ANYONE that plays D1 basketball be that bad at shooting FT's????????

I know that there are some defensive specialists and people you do not count on scoring very many points during the game, but WTF.

1) The purpose of the game is to get the ball in the basket.
2) A FT is a fixed distance and when the clock is stopped. You get to take your time to line up your shot, etc..
3) They all grow up practicing FT's from the same distance their whole life
4) a D1 athlete on scholarship is the best of the best at that level.
 

alchemy2u said:
Watched the end of the Gopher game and a major reason was their poor FT shooting.

HOW CAN ANYONE that plays D1 basketball be that bad at shooting FT's????????

I know that there are some defensive specialists and people you do not count on scoring very many points during the game, but WTF.

1) The purpose of the game is to get the ball in the basket.
2) A FT is a fixed distance and when the clock is stopped. You get to take your time to line up your shot, etc..
3) They all grow up practicing FT's from the same distance their whole life
4) a D1 athlete on scholarship is the best of the best at that level.
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Interesting.
Funny this hasn't been noticed and discussed before.
 



alchemy2u said:
Watched the end of the Gopher game and a major reason was their poor FT shooting.

HOW CAN ANYONE that plays D1 basketball be that bad at shooting FT's????????

I know that there are some defensive specialists and people you do not count on scoring very many points during the game, but WTF.

1) The purpose of the game is to get the ball in the basket.
2) A FT is a fixed distance and when the clock is stopped. You get to take your time to line up your shot, etc..
3) They all grow up practicing FT's from the same distance their whole life
4) a D1 athlete on scholarship is the best of the best at that level.
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You seem lost, I thought you gave up on this forum due it being a cesspool. Now you are adding to the cess? Bold move Cotton, but I respect it.
 

formerlybis said:
I think you get this, but there have been a myriad of Badger players from MN who aren't really viewed as "misses". Yet they end up as multi-year starters on really successful teams. Nolan Winter is the next in line of these guys - is he a star/difference maker? Not really yet, but he's at least "solid B10 starter" and is a miss (especially considering he's a legacy).
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Winter was a miss, he was prioritised by Johnson and was thought to be a Gopher commit right up untill his late cycle visit to Wisonsin when he flipped to the Badgers.
 

alchemy2u said:
Watched the end of the Gopher game and a major reason was their poor FT shooting.

HOW CAN ANYONE that plays D1 basketball be that bad at shooting FT's????????

I know that there are some defensive specialists and people you do not count on scoring very many points during the game, but WTF.

1) The purpose of the game is to get the ball in the basket.
2) A FT is a fixed distance and when the clock is stopped. You get to take your time to line up your shot, etc..
3) They all grow up practicing FT's from the same distance their whole life
4) a D1 athlete on scholarship is the best of the best at that level.
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The wisdom of this post escapes many.

Free Throws are free points. Having a low FT% is just giving away the game.
 

I thought the difference in coaching was quite noticeable last night. The Badgers scored on the same out of bounds action 3 times in the 2nd half. They had a number of dunks in their half court offense as well. Wisconsin was an uncharacteristic 5-22 from 3, had Tonje miss a big chunk of the 2nd half with foul trouble and still lead for all but like 2 minutes of game time on the road.

One odd component of last night was how much quicker and faster the Badger guards were than the Gophers guards. There is a lot to say about the Badgers domination of us that is far beyond just a Ben Johnson issue, but I honestly can't remember the last time I felt the Badgers had more speed in the backcourt (I could be forgetting an obvious answer in recent years). Maybe Johnny Davis is the answer, but I always thought he was more of a strong guard than an especially quick/fast player. The good news was I thought the two Minnesota bigs on their roster (Winter and Crowl) both played pretty poorly. Stats say Crowl finished 4-6 from the field, but it sure felt like he missed more than 2 point blank layups. Winter had the embarrassing "up and down" where he didn't shoot the unguarded 3 and also turned the ball over when he had an easy score against a 6'2 guard. Both guys inability to dominate our switching defense played a role in this game remaining somewhat competitive.

On the Gophers side, seeing Asuma get blown by 3 times was disappointing. I still think the potential is there for him to be very good, but I don't feel good about penciling him in as a starter next year. Frank getting in better shape has made a major difference in his game, probably made himself some money as a big off the bench for us or someone else next season. Sucks that Dawson went out with such a poor game (by his standards), he's been so important on both sides of the ball all season.
 

The game was lost in the first five minutes with cold shooting.

Otherwise, I blame the fans for ticket migration, hotdog sales, and Irish cabaret bands, not in that order.
 

EG#9 said:
had Tonje miss a big chunk of the 2nd half with foul trouble and still lead for all but like 2 minutes of game time on the road.
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Add in the absence of Klesmit, who plays 30 min per game.

You started with the difference in coaching. Wisconsin has fully embraced analytics, wanting to limit shots to 3s or layups on offense and force tough twos on defense. Wisconsin had only 10 of their 33 2pt FGAs from the midrange (they made 5 of them, btw, so 50% which is a high make rate for midrange shots). Meanwhile, Minnesota shot 19 mids and 24 close 2s of their 43 2pt FGAs, and only made 4 of their mids (a putrid make rate of just over 20%).

If you're still with me, this is clear evidence of one team executing an actual plan and the other team either unaware of the plan or unable to counter it.
 

alchemy2u said:
Watched the end of the Gopher game and a major reason was their poor FT shooting.

HOW CAN ANYONE that plays D1 basketball be that bad at shooting FT's????????

I know that there are some defensive specialists and people you do not count on scoring very many points during the game, but WTF.

1) The purpose of the game is to get the ball in the basket.
2) A FT is a fixed distance and when the clock is stopped. You get to take your time to line up your shot, etc..
3) They all grow up practicing FT's from the same distance their whole life
4) a D1 athlete on scholarship is the best of the best at that level.
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Sure, but this team has done worse this season: Wake Forest (6-16; 40%), Purdue (7-16, .438), Ohio State (12-27, .444). The last one was the most egregious since they lost by 1 point in double overtime. Since that Ohio State game, they didn't have a really bad free throw shooting night until Wisconsin, so I guess they were about due. If it had to happen, at least it happened against a team we had little chance of beating anyway.
 

ShushPush said:
The game was lost in the first five minutes with cold shooting.
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Ben Johnson appears to have feelings of loyalty towards Fox and Mike Mitchell despite their struggles this season. Part of their struggles undoubtedly are due their health. They both appear physically diminished compared to last season. Unfortunately, starting them every half leads to opening cold spells. It's not just shooting efficiency. Without Frank Mitchell in the game, we simply don't get as many second-chance shots, something this team needs because they normally don't shoot that well.
 

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