***OFFICIAL MINNESOTA AT MARYLAND IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

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tjgopher said:
Ok, believe what you want. You seem to have all the answers.

But, I can tell you he is not eligible to file for a waiver.
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Quite the contrary. You're the one who is displaying the misplaced certainty here. If he returns next year I will make sure to remind you of that.
 

swanyj said:
I understand what you are saying but the issue is not if he was an upgrade to what was on the court (which he is...Daniels and Ogele suck), it is about gaining that critical experience. Those two guys NEVER should have played last night other than to give a breather to TT. If Johnson wants to play without a big, that was his strategy, but playing two inferior players who will be gone next year, over TT is nuts! Those 16 minutes should have gone to TT.

And once again, he plays 3 guys 40 minutes, and all sucking wind late in the game. All of this is eerily familiar to the crap Pitino did while he was here and I am afraid we are going to end up with the same results. Although I have to admit that Johnson/Thorson have a better plan for the games, they are copying some of the same problems of Pitino and that is what is frustrating.
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The difference is when Pitino did it, it was bad roster management and ineptitude, when BJ and Thorson do it, it is brilliance that mere mortals can't understand. /s
 

cjbfbp said:
Quite the contrary. You're the one who is displaying the misplaced certainty here. If he returns next year I will make sure to remind you of that.
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Like I said believe what you want. Maybe we can get Willis and Loewe back, too? Let's see what the NCAA says.
 

BarnBurner said:
Exactly.
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swanyj said:
Totally agree. Johnsons logic along with many on this board does not make any sense. Playing TT and Thiam 10-15 minutes per game regardless should have been a priority so they can gain experience playing against Big Ten competition. That can not be accomplished through practice. Having that experience was critical because next year the incoming freshman, however talented they are supposed to be, will be deer in the headlights when it comes to playing in the Big Ten. They need people that have experience and other than Battle, they will have none thanks to Johnson.

It made no sense to play CD or Ogele other than sporadic minutes. TT should have gotten all the minutes last night even if it would have led to poor defense as some people suggest ...and I totally disagree. He would adapt and learn and offer some resistance at the rim. AND possibly get a rebound. I know he missed a couple but that is all you a-holes focus on. He needs to be in there more than 3 minutes and allow him to get that experience so he understands the competition he is up against and adapt. He is a talented player as has been said by many (Bardo mentioned it last night) but he needs time to develop and that experience is critical.
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Good grief play Thiam at least 10-15 a game also. The logic of playing someone because they are young is ridiculous. So instead of putting together the most competitive team you can you play guys who don’t deserve minutes over guys that do. What’s the end game lottery picks?
 

leib0039 said:
I just don't understand the logic with giving him 3 min last night. Right now hes not strong enough and is more of a perimeter guy, I understand that. But what was the worst that could happen last night? They scored at will in the post, we had nothing. They literally could not have done more on offense, so maybe try to take advantage of that on the other end, put Wahab in some PnR and maybe TT gets an open 3 or two. Sutherlin played fine but he was perfect for MD, hey he cant shoot so our big guy can just sit in the post until he comes in.

Expierence can only help and at this point I have heard plenty of people say "winning doesnt matter this year" so why play Ogele any minutes, why play sutherlin a ton. I'm not saying this is the case here, but there are times guys dont play the younger guy because they know he isnt good so the perception he will be good long term still helps calm the group. Think the NBA, its better to have 10,000 draft picks than being .500, at .500 you know your limit its not huge, with the picks you can sell a future of superstars!
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You play Sutherlin because he gives you a chance to win. He is a much better scorer than TT, enormously better defender, and at 6'5 he's a far superior rebounder.

Thompson has a long off-season to get ready for next year. Right now, Ben is still trying to get another win.
 


short ornery norwegian said:
in a word -- matchups.

Granted, the Gophers were forced to play TT vs Rutgers due to circumstances, but I also believe that TT had success against Rutgers because his skill set - at its current level - is a better matchup against Rutgers.

against different teams, with different players and schemes, the matchups do not favor TT.

If Johnson truly believed that TT "should" be playing based on merit, he would be playing.

the alternative is to believe that Johnson would sabotage his own team due to some petty reason, which I just don't buy.

And - Johnson is not the only coach. If Thorson or one of the other assistants really believed that TT should be playing more, don't you think that would make a difference?
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All of this would make sense if there were players playing in front of him who earned their minutes on "merit". In the case of Thiam, all of this applies. In the case of Thompson, it doesn't.

Unless he's a completely lazy jerk in practice, there's no reason he hasn't "earned" as much playing time as Daniels and Ogele. Will he struggle? Yes. Does it matter when you're 4-15? No. A 4-15 team giving minutes to marginal seniors who aren't good while freshmen can't get off the bench simply makes no logical sense to me.
 

tjgopher said:
It is fact. He is out of eligibility. Playing only four years has nothing to do with it in his case. He had the misfortune of taking a redshirt during a COVID year. So, he is playing that extra year right now. He doesn't get two years for missing one.
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I believe this is correct.

They treated everyone who played in 2020-21 the same as if that year had been granted a medical hardship waiver. IE, it didn't count against your limit of four seasons of participation and your clock got extended by a year ... but four is still four.

And 21-22 is Sutherlin's fourth participated season. First three were 2017-18, 18-19 at JUCO and then 19-20 at UNH.


On the other hand Willis, he played 16-17, 17-18 at Vandy, sat out 18-19 (defacto redshirt) here, played 19-20 here, then 20-21 at CoC ended up being like a hardship waiver, then came back here for his fourth 21-22.
 

tjgopher said:
What makes you say that?
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Because Ben Johnson is a decent human being and a good basketball coach. That's the kind of guy who cares deeply for everyone who plays for him.
 




Dakota2 said:
You play Sutherlin because he gives you a chance to win. He is a much better scorer than TT, enormously better defender, and at 6'5 he's a far superior rebounder.

Thompson has a long off-season to get ready for next year. Right now, Ben is still trying to get another win.
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I dont disagree that Sutherlin is a better defender today than TT and a driver. That said, MD shot 61% on 2's, Wahab was 5/7, Hart 4/5, Ayala 3/6 etc. My point is that although he is likely better its not like it was working, we were getting OWNED in the paint, what was the worst that could have happened? They shoot 70% not 61%? We lose by 15 not 11? And again on offense sure sutherlin (who is basically a guard) can drive, but hes small, he shot 2/5 last night, this isnt like he was getting buckets at will. It will never make sense to me that 30 min in and this was happening why the last 10 min didnt go to TT, there was literally 0 downside.
 


cjbfbp said:
Before you dress down someone else for making a statement like that, ask yourself: "How do I know he gave much of an effort to prevent multiple players from walking?" He claimed that he persuaded Ihnen pretty hard to stay but I don't recall him saying that about anyone else.
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What if he said he persuaded Gabe and others pretty hard but they still left? That doesn’t look good. Saying the one guy who stayed was the one he persuaded the most is good optics. Just another way to look at it. Having more of last years team wouldn’t have really thrilled me, FWIW.
 

leib0039 said:
I dont disagree that Sutherlin is a better defender today than TT and a driver. That said, MD shot 61% on 2's, Wahab was 5/7, Hart 4/5, Ayala 3/6 etc. My point is that although he is likely better its not like it was working, we were getting OWNED in the paint, what was the worst that could have happened? They shoot 70% not 61%? We lose by 15 not 11? And again on offense sure sutherlin (who is basically a guard) can drive, but hes small, he shot 2/5 last night, this isnt like he was getting buckets at will. It will never make sense to me that 30 min in and this was happening why the last 10 min didnt go to TT, there was literally 0 downside.
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Check Sutherlin's scoring and rebounding stats for the year. TT could have played two full games a night and not been there. Sutherlin has been one of the league's best non-starters, especially when you factor in defense.

I will agree Danny's three minutes was a head scratcher but playing the fiddler ahead of Thompson is simply a defensive necessity.
 



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howeda7 said:
All of this would make sense if there were players playing in front of him who earned their minutes on "merit". In the case of Thiam, all of this applies. In the case of Thompson, it doesn't.

Unless he's a completely lazy jerk in practice, there's no reason he hasn't "earned" as much playing time as Daniels and Ogele. Will he struggle? Yes. Does it matter when you're 4-15? No. A 4-15 team giving minutes to marginal seniors who aren't good while freshmen can't get off the bench simply makes no logical sense to me.
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Not sure why you keep bringing up Ogele because TT has played above him since December.
 

leib0039 said:
I dont disagree that Sutherlin is a better defender today than TT and a driver. That said, MD shot 61% on 2's, Wahab was 5/7, Hart 4/5, Ayala 3/6 etc. My point is that although he is likely better its not like it was working, we were getting OWNED in the paint, what was the worst that could have happened? They shoot 70% not 61%? We lose by 15 not 11? And again on offense sure sutherlin (who is basically a guard) can drive, but hes small, he shot 2/5 last night, this isnt like he was getting buckets at will. It will never make sense to me that 30 min in and this was happening why the last 10 min didnt go to TT, there was literally 0 downside.
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Probably because they made a comeback in the last 10 minutes?
 

Dakota2 said:
You play Sutherlin because he gives you a chance to win. He is a much better scorer than TT, enormously better defender, and at 6'5 he's a far superior rebounder.

Thompson has a long off-season to get ready for next year. Right now, Ben is still trying to get another win.
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Wins don’t matter this season.
 

MNVCGUY said:
This winning doesn't matter narrative keeps getting twisted.

Johnson and the players are competitors and they are going out there every night doing their absolute best to win the game. Johnson is coaching to win the game and he is playing the guys he thinks give the team the best shot to do that. He could have made the decision to just totally scrap the season and play the young guys but he didn't.

In the end, the record for this year is not important, which is why I and others have been saying that winning doesn't matter. But that doesn't mean the team isn't going out there each night and trying to win. It just means that in the grand scheme of things the W/L record here in year 1 shouldn't be used to evaluate Johnson's ability as a coach or be seen as any sort of indicator of what is going to happen over the next few years.

This is a whole new roster, that lost key pieces before the season, and has been dealing with injuries and other issues down the stretch. The guys are going out there and giving it all they have each night, but just don't have the horses to get it done most nights unfortunately.
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In the end????? In the end!!!!!!
Post of the Century for rationalization and excuses.

Well done!!😂😂😂😂
 

Dakota2 said:
Check Sutherlin's scoring and rebounding stats for the year. TT could have played two full games a night and not been there. Sutherlin has been one of the league's best non-starters, especially when you factor in defense.

I will agree Danny's three minutes was a head scratcher but playing the fiddler ahead of Thompson is simply a defensive necessity.
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Player A Per 40 min: 13p 6.6r 1.4s 0.6b eFG% 50%, 9.8% total rebound rate
Player B Per 40 min: 14.9p 9r 1.2s 2.4b eFG% 56.7% 10.9% total rebound rate

Not to spoil the surprise but Player B figures to be here for 3 more years while Player A will be here 3 more weeks....So yah I did check the numbers, Still makes no sense for a team in 13th in the league in a game they are being ravaged inside.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
I don't think the wins/losses matter this year in the long run. I do think there needs to be a lot more wins in the next couple years though. Johnson has this roster because of what he did/didnt do. Losing Fox hurts defensively but he isn't going to be a big offensive boost. Great dunker though.
Ihnen would be better than the alternatives but he shot 22% on 3s last year in 14 minutes per game for a bottom 2 team in the conference. We aren't missing Oturu, its Isaiah freaking Ihnen.

I am optimistic the team is better next year. Battle, the incoming freshman, Fox and Ihnen is likely a better roster than we have now. The portal will be huge for him. Needs to get higher end players than he did in the last go around.
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Not so sure about the better roster comment. If cbj doesn’t hit a couple of triples in the portal, might be another tough season. Then recruiting gets tougher. Next year is pivotal imo.
 

Gophers_4life said:
I believe this is correct.

They treated everyone who played in 2020-21 the same as if that year had been granted a medical hardship waiver. IE, it didn't count against your limit of four seasons of participation and your clock got extended by a year ... but four is still four.

And 21-22 is Sutherlin's fourth participated season. First three were 2017-18, 18-19 at JUCO and then 19-20 at UNH.


On the other hand Willis, he played 16-17, 17-18 at Vandy, sat out 18-19 (defacto redshirt) here, played 19-20 here, then 20-21 at CoC ended up being like a hardship waiver, then came back here for his fourth 21-22.
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What I'm saying is that is a discriminatory rule. Players who played that year are given 5 years of eligibility (if they want them) while players who didn't because of injury or something similar get only four. I believe a rule like that is challengeable and that challenge could win.

People make rules (often in haste). Those rules are frequently challenged, sometimes successfully and amended; sometimes they're just interpreted on a case by case basis. This is how some lawyers make a very good living.

Now, if someone can point me to evidence showing where this rule has been challenged and that challenge lost, maybe I'll close my mind on the subject.
 

cjbfbp said:
That's probably somewhat true for most dedicated fans but that's also rather faint praise.

We saw some really good ball movement and team guard play this year. Unfortunately, at least 3 of those guards will not be around next year (I'm not sure about Sutherlin). Hopefully Ben can recruit a couple of transfer guards of at least comparable quality.

We saw some of the worst front court play imaginable for this level of college basketball. Any team with significant strength there could eat us alive. The good thing is that next year could only be better. Perhaps getting exposed in the front court so badly this year will cause long term determination for Ben never to let this happen again.

We have Battle coming back and for that we should be very grateful. Getting 39 points in a game is a rare occurrence for a Gopher. When he's on, he's pretty amazing.

We have four freshman coming in next year. I don't see how they could avoid giving us more than this year's freshmen (Thompson and Thiam).
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Ben didn't let the front court deficiencies happen. Fox and Ihnen, both good rebounders and long shot blockers, were out for the season before practice even started. That's not something any coach can control.

On top of that, Curry -- hobbled at best -- has suffered more injuries during the season. That, any coach could see, was always going to be a distinct possibility. But Fox and Ihnen? No way.
 

leib0039 said:
Player A Per 40 min: 13p 6.6r 1.4s 0.6b eFG% 50%, 9.8% total rebound rate
Player B Per 40 min: 14.9p 9r 1.2s 2.4b eFG% 56.7% 10.9% total rebound rate

Not to spoil the surprise but Player B figures to be here for 3 more years while Player A will be here 3 more weeks....So yah I did check the numbers, Still makes no sense for a team in 13th in the league in a game they are being ravaged inside.
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Except that neither played 40 minutes a game. Check the actual stats. And, you didn't comment on defense. Just as important.

But out of curiosity what is the source of your stats used to project 40 minutes? According to ESPN Gopher stats Thompson has played 26% of the minutes Sutherlin has played but only scored 20% of Sutherlin's total and has only 22% of Sutherlin's rebound total.
 

Dakota2 said:
Ben didn't let the front court deficiencies happen. Fox and Ihnen, both good rebounders and long shot blockers, were out for the season before practice even started. That's not something any coach can control.

On top of that, Curry -- hobbled at best -- has suffered more injuries during the season. That, any coach could see, was always going to be a distinct possibility. But Fox and Ihnen? No way.
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Fox was injured very shortly after he committed and that was early. Ihnen was injured much later but there was still enough time to get someone better than Ogele.
 

UpAndUnder43 said:
What if he said he persuaded Gabe and others pretty hard but they still left? That doesn’t look good. Saying the one guy who stayed was the one he persuaded the most is good optics. Just another way to look at it. Having more of last years team wouldn’t have really thrilled me, FWIW.
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Most players were already gone before Ben was even announced. Gabe reconsidered only because it was Ben of all people that got hired
 

cjbfbp said:
Fox was injured very shortly after he committed and that was early. Ihnen was injured much later but there was still enough time to get someone better than Ogele.
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Maybe time wasn't the only factor. Is it possible, in the time available, nobody better than Ogele wanted to play at Minnesota?

Under the circumstances we faced, I think he did a really good job getting Willis and Battle. And he did his homework in offering Loewe, Stephens, and Sutherlin. They all played much better in the Big Ten than their histories would suggest.
 

Dakota2 said:
Except that neither played 40 minutes a game. Check the actual stats. And, you didn't comment on defense. Just as important.

But out of curiosity what is the source of your stats used to project 40 minutes? According to ESPN Gopher stats Thompson has played 26% of the minutes Sutherlin has played but only scored 20% of Sutherlin's total and has only 22% of Sutherlin's rebound total.
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Basketball-reference. Defensive numbers are close, Sutherlin 103 def rating Thompson 105. If you are trying to find something that says Sutherlin is great, sorry he isn't good. I'm not saying TT is but playing a guy who isn't good and will be gone in weeks over a fr when you are 13th in conference will never make sense to me.
 

What about the actual, real numbers? Sutherlin scores and rebounds at a higher rate per time played than Thompson. Fact, not "basketball reference".

And anyone who actually watched the team play knows Sutherlin plays better defense. And yes, he was a good bench contributor.
 

Dakota2 said:
What about the actual, real numbers? Sutherlin scores and rebounds at a higher rate per time played than Thompson. Fact, not "basketball reference".

And anyone who actually watched the team play knows Sutherlin plays better defense. And yes, he was a good bench contributor.
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Sutherlin has played 556 min, TT 151. I'd hope Sutherlin has better totals ha. I understand it's tough when stats say you are wrong so you go "well I watched he's better" sure, just go with that. At the end if the day it's fairly pointless to argue about these 2. Neither is good at the moment and neither is making a huge difference. My point is just I see no reason to play a SR over a fr when your team isn't good and the players are close in impact.
 

Dakota2 said:
What about the actual, real numbers? Sutherlin scores and rebounds at a higher rate per time played than Thompson. Fact, not "basketball reference".

And anyone who actually watched the team play knows Sutherlin plays better defense. And yes, he was a good bench contributor.
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I don’t want to believe it because I think TT is a better play and program builder (the crowd loves him)… But sutherlin’s win share per 40 min (0.093) is way better than Curry (0.069), Stephens (0.076), and Lowe (0.057). Not great overall, but still better. TT is 0.080 btw.

also it’s weird we are comparing a PF/C to a Sf/SG in terms of defense. Different roles altogether. Different strengths.
 


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