***OFFICIAL MINNESOTA AT INDIANA IN-GAME THREAD!!!***

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stocker08 said:
You are well documented as being a Johnson is a disaster guy. A weird obsession with marginalizing wins and Gophers opponents because you so desperately want to be right about Johnson. You could make the case that Missouri is bad. San Francisco @ 41 in the NET isn't bad. Indiana's worst loss is @ Rutgers. Hard to say they are bad with the inconclusive evidence we have right now.

Much like the other Johnson haters.....you have an agenda. It's weird to put so much effort into hating on a team that you claim to be a fan of. But I get that some people's ego (and disaster prediction) is more important.
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Was his first two years not a disaster?

I haven't marginalized any of his wins. The Nebraska win was a GOOD win. Outside of that, has any other win been impressive? All the other teams they have beaten have pretty much stunk this season.

Again, I never said SF is a bad team. Just they won't make the tournament. It's a prediction. You're getting mad at me for making a prediction. If they make it, I'll admit I was wrong, and you can @ me every day til eternity if you want. If you want me to say IU is below avg so we can put that to bed, fine. I mean their 91st at KenPom for Christ sakes.

I have no agenda. I want us to be good. Anytime I have optimism(going into the Missouri game and IU game) we lay an egg.

Our team is improved. Which I've said 100 times. But being the realist that I am, can also recognize, we aren't even better than the team that got Pitino fired. So yeah, I'm gonna be harsh on CBJ, just like I was Pitino if the results don't get better. I've enjoyed having the optimism and potential ncaa talk heading into the heart of B1G season. By this time last year, we were like 180 in KenPom or whatever. So I'm grateful for that.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Was his first two years not a disaster?

I haven't marginalized any of his wins. The Nebraska win was a GOOD win. Outside of that, has any other win been impressive? All the other teams they have beaten have pretty much stunk this season.

Again, I never said SF is a bad team. Just they won't make the tournament. It's a prediction. You're getting mad at me for making a prediction. If they make it, I'll admit I was wrong, and you can @ me every day til eternity if you want. If you want me to say IU is below avg so we can put that to bed, fine. I mean their 91st at KenPom for Christ sakes.

I have no agenda. I want us to be good. Anytime I have optimism(going into the Missouri game and IU game) we lay an egg.

Our team is improved. Which I've said 100 times. But being the realist that I am, can also recognize, we aren't even better than the team that got Pitino fired. So yeah, I'm gonna be harsh on CBJ, just like I was Pitino if the results don't get better. I've enjoyed having the optimism and potential ncaa talk heading into the heart of B1G season. By this time last year, we were like 180 in KenPom or whatever. So I'm grateful for that.
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Again.....Indiana is bad because their Kenpom is low. San Francisco is bad despite their pretty good ranking because....?

Stop focusing on the previous two years. What matters is how the team is NOW. Why would anyone want to fire a coach when the team is on an upwards trajectory for any reason other than they want to be right about their weird hatred of the guy? His first HS class are sophomores.....and pending an unforeseen exodus.....the majority of the team returns next year. But there's this pocket of Johnson is a disaster posters like you who are trying hard to marginalize the team in anyway possible (we've only played bad teams!).
 

stocker08 said:
Again.....Indiana is bad because their Kenpom is low. San Francisco is bad despite their pretty good ranking because....?

Stop focusing on the previous two years. What matters is how the team is NOW. Why would anyone want to fire a coach when the team is on an upwards trajectory for any reason other than they want to be right about their weird hatred of the guy? His first HS class are sophomores.....and pending an unforeseen exodus.....the majority of the team returns next year. But there's this pocket of Johnson is a disaster posters like you who are trying hard to marginalize the team in anyway possible (we've only played bad teams!).
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FFS, again SF isn't bad. I'm just not projecting they will make the tournament.

And yeah, we're on an upward trajectory(because it would be almost impossible to be worse), but we're 2 and a half seasons into this thing, and his overall tenure has been bad. I don't think anyone would say we are good, at this point. I'm just being real here.

I think it's a reasonable expectation, in a coaches 3rd year(especially given the state of the B1G) to be knocking on the ncaa tournament door, and we aren't close at this point IMO.
 

Shooting was cold but Mitchell only had 6 shots entire game, he is one who should seek to get 6 shots a quarter.
 

Gophers7633 said:
FFS, again SF isn't bad. I'm just not projecting they will make the tournament.

And yeah, we're on an upward trajectory(because it would be almost impossible to be worse), but we're 2 and a half seasons into this thing, and his overall tenure has been bad. I don't think anyone would say we are good, at this point. I'm just being real here.

I think it's a reasonable expectation, in a coaches 3rd year(especially given the state of the B1G) to be knocking on the ncaa tournament door, and we aren't close at this point IMO.
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Jesus.....get past the first two years. Johnson didn't have time to recruit a decent class his first year. His first HS class are only sophomores. The only criteria for whether Johnson should be retained is whether the team he's built is good enough to warrant more time.....or whether his program is going nowhere and we need to restart from scratch with a new coach. Imo....looking at the team he's assembled now and the trajectory the team is on.....it's stupid that anyone would want to restart from scratch without seeing where this goes. But again....some people have their agenda. Some people have no desire to pivot from their take that Johnson is a disaster and should be fired. It's bizarre behavior for people claiming to be fans of the team.
 


stocker08 said:
Many years Gonzaga ran the table. You keep acting like the WCC is some kicking can conference, which is not the case. They tend to field multiple competitive teams each year.....and whether Gonzaga is a top five team or not is beyond the point.

Face it. During our game against SF.....you diminshed them as having no shot to make the tournament......and went as far as to point to their previous year record as proof that they weren't any good. Now you're pivoting off that because you can't admit that you have some weird obsession with diminishing every team the Gophers play. I just don't understand you odd Johnson haters that want so badly to knock this team. It's bizarre.
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What the hardcore anti-CBJs fail to grasp is that teams evolve/devolve in a season; The Pack looked nothing like are playing now, compared to the first half of the season.

I played on teams that improved and imploded over a season and any on here who played a team sport after their sack dropped would understand that; those who don’t, likely have no reference point from their own experience or are simply like yo be negative as that fuels them.

How anyone could want this for a coach/U team, makes me wonder if their true allegiances lie to our neighboring states teams.
 
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Gophers7633 said:
Was his first two years not a disaster?

I haven't marginalized any of his wins. The Nebraska win was a GOOD win. Outside of that, has any other win been impressive? All the other teams they have beaten have pretty much stunk this season.

Again, I never said SF is a bad team. Just they won't make the tournament. It's a prediction. You're getting mad at me for making a prediction. If they make it, I'll admit I was wrong, and you can @ me every day til eternity if you want. If you want me to say IU is below avg so we can put that to bed, fine. I mean their 91st at KenPom for Christ sakes.

I have no agenda. I want us to be good. Anytime I have optimism(going into the Missouri game and IU game) we lay an egg.

Our team is improved. Which I've said 100 times. But being the realist that I am, can also recognize, we aren't even better than the team that got Pitino fired. So yeah, I'm gonna be harsh on CBJ, just like I was Pitino if the results don't get better. I've enjoyed having the optimism and potential ncaa talk heading into the heart of B1G season. By this time last year, we were like 180 in KenPom or whatever. So I'm grateful for that.
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Maryland was a good win against a good team.
 

007gopherfan said:
Shooting was cold but Mitchell only had 6 shots entire game, he is one who should seek to get 6 shots a quarter.
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Mitchell was intimidated and rushing shots way out of rhythm. Didn’t need more shots on that night
 



The people who say they're better than they were the first two years of Johnson's tenure are correct. Someone said that was a pretty low bar, and that's also correct. Someone (perhaps the same person) made a comment about the state of the program in Pitino's last year.

So, I decided to look where the Gophers are now against 2020-21 in the offensive and defensive metrics. Forget the first two years of Johnson. These are from Torvik.

2023-24, as of 1/14/24: Off # 103. Def #96
2020-21, as of 1/14/21: O #44, D: #64
2020-21, full season: O #88, D #61

MN could get better or worse as the year goes on, but the people who are saying this isn't even as good as when Pitino got fired are, in fact, correct.
 

stocker08 said:
Jesus.....get past the first two years. Johnson didn't have time to recruit a decent class his first year. His first HS class are only sophomores. The only criteria for whether Johnson should be retained is whether the team he's built is good enough to warrant more time.....or whether his program is going nowhere and we need to restart from scratch with a new coach. Imo....looking at the team he's assembled now and the trajectory the team is on.....it's stupid that anyone would want to restart from scratch without seeing where this goes. But again....some people have their agenda. Some people have no desire to pivot from their take that Johnson is a disaster and should be fired. It's bizarre behavior for people claiming to be fans of the team.
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Okay, so just forgetting about the first 2 years. We are in year 3 and a fringe top 90 team in CBB. If you want me to forget about the first two years, stop bringing up how improved we are, or the trajectory. We aren't a good team, I mean I guess we can get there, but there's really no evidence of it, if you want me to remove the first 2 years.(Let be it known, we have improved, but if we're throwing out the first 2 years, we have yet to field a good team)

I honestly have no agenda. We haven't been good in any of his years(as of now). We're going to have to be a lot better to be good this year, and hopefully that starts tomorrow.
 

Dakota2 said:
The premise of the team being talented, good, decent, improved ..... is hitting a reasonable percentage of shots. Gophers went 3-20 last night from three. If they go 7-20, which is only 35% and below their normal capability, they win the game.

If they go 6-20, a mere 30% and below our average, and Christie hits 3-3 free throws when he's fouled on a three, and Payne makes 4-7 free throws rather than 2-7, we win the game. Or if Michell scores half his average.

Despite not playing well, we were well within reasonable range of shooting expectation to win the game.
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If if if, daka$$.
 




Dakota2 said:
Maryland was a good win against a good team.
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People get me on for calling IU bad, but we have people thinking MD is good? Yes, they had a good game today, but there's a reason they were outside the top 75 in KenPom and outside the top 100 in the NET coming into today.
 

formerlybis said:
The people who say they're better than they were the first two years of Johnson's tenure are correct. Someone said that was a pretty low bar, and that's also correct. Someone (perhaps the same person) made a comment about the state of the program in Pitino's last year.

So, I decided to look where the Gophers are now against 2020-21 in the offensive and defensive metrics. Forget the first two years of Johnson. These are from Torvik.

2023-24, as of 1/14/24: Off # 103. Def #96
2020-21, as of 1/14/21: O #44, D: #64
2020-21, full season: O #88, D #61

MN could get better or worse as the year goes on, but the people who are saying this isn't even as good as when Pitino got fired are, in fact, correct.
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I have been saying this for a while now. NOT to bash on this team, coach or program, but we need some perspective and context. Maybe we can improve enough this season to bet better than what got Pitino fired. I HOPE so.
 

Gophers7633 said:
People get me on for calling IU bad, but we have people thinking MD is good? Yes, they had a good game today, but there's a reason they were outside the top 75 in KenPom and outside the top 100 in the NET coming into today.
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KenPom doesn't play basketball. Maryland and Illinois do.
 


Dakota2 said:
KenPom doesn't play basketball. Maryland and Illinois do.
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Does anyone disagree? I would guess Maryland had about a 15% chance of winning, based on the analytics, and they did. Do you think Maryland is now a better team than Illinois? Was Fairleigh Dickinson a better team than Purdue? It's why they play the game.
 


formerlybis said:
Does anyone disagree? I would guess Maryland had about a 15% chance of winning, based on the analytics, and they did. Do you think Maryland is now a better team than Illinois? Was Fairleigh Dickinson a better team than Purdue? It's why they play the game.
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They play the games because KenPom and analytics is for people who talk about basketball rather than watch and enjoy. I don't know if Maryland is better than Illinois just as neither you nor KenPorn knows. What I do know is Maryland and Illinois are both good teams with tons of talent.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Okay, so just forgetting about the first 2 years. We are in year 3 and a fringe top 90 team in CBB. If you want me to forget about the first two years, stop bringing up how improved we are, or the trajectory. We aren't a good team, I mean I guess we can get there, but there's really no evidence of it, if you want me to remove the first 2 years.(Let be it known, we have improved, but if we're throwing out the first 2 years, we have yet to field a good team)

I honestly have no agenda. We haven't been good in any of his years(as of now). We're going to have to be a lot better to be good this year, and hopefully that starts tomorrow.
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We're looking to finish near the middle of the Big Ten. But we also are likely to return the entire team (maybe minus Garcia). Blowing it up when the team is on the verge of making the next step would be an absolutely idiotic move. A move that I see a certain few posters hoping for.
 


stocker08 said:
We're looking to finish near the middle of the Big Ten. But we also are likely to return the entire team (maybe minus Garcia). Blowing it up when the team is on the verge of making the next step would be an absolutely idiotic move. A move that I see a certain few posters hoping for.
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Yeah, if we are actually on the verge of taking the next step, it would be. I don't consider being a top 90 team as taking the next step. Sure it's better, but only because it was so awful.
 

Gophers7633 said:
Yeah, if we are actually on the verge of taking the next step, it would be. I don't consider being a top 90 team as taking the next step. Sure it's better, but only because it was so awful.
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Yes.....returning the entire team isn't going to result in taking another step forward.

Brilliant stuff.
 

stocker08 said:
Yes.....returning the entire team isn't going to result in taking another step forward.

Brilliant stuff.
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There have been plenty of examples where returning everyone doesn't mean anything. Returning the entire team, from a team ranked in the 80's(as of now), doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence. But I'm willing to give him another chance if we close out somewhat decent here at the end of the year.
 

Gophers7633 said:
There have been plenty of examples where returning everyone doesn't mean anything. Returning the entire team, from a team ranked in the 80's(as of now), doesn't exactly inspire a lot of confidence. But I'm willing to give him another chance if we close out somewhat decent here at the end of the year.
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Sure. The massive improvement made by the freshman last year to this year is going to reverse course or stop dead in its tracks.

Brilliant stuff.
 

stocker08 said:
Sure. The massive improvement made by the freshman last year to this year is going to reverse course or stop dead in its tracks.

Brilliant stuff.
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MSU returned everyone from a S16 team(minus Hauser, which would be similar if we lose Garcia) and already have 7 losses. If Ben does get another year, at least the bar won't have been set so historically low, that being a top 90 team is being applauded by some as some massive accomplishment.
 

Gophers7633 said:
MSU returned everyone from a S16 team(minus Hauser, which would be similar if we lose Garcia) and already have 7 losses. If Ben does get another year, at least the bar won't have been set so historically low, that being a top 90 team is being applauded by some as some massive accomplishment.
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Badgers returned their entire core team from the 9-11 Big Ten finish they had last year and are currently sitting atop the BT with a 5-0 record. I realize that you have an agenda.....but arguing that returning the majority of a roster typically doesn't result in improvement is beyond ridiculous.

Team is young and has a bunch of potential. Don't let it ruin your sleep.

IgXgEUl.png
 

stocker08 said:
Badgers returned their entire core team from the 9-11 Big Ten finish they had last year and are currently sitting atop the BT with a 5-0 record. I realize that you have an agenda.....but arguing that returning the majority of a roster typically doesn't result in improvement is beyond ridiculous.

Team is young and has a bunch of potential. Don't let it ruin your sleep.

IgXgEUl.png
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I sleep just fine. You gave a great example of team improving when returning a lot of their roster. I gave one where it hasn't. Either way, it's no guarantee. If this staff does return, I hope there is enough improvement to be better than what got Pitino fired.
 

Gophers7633 said:
I sleep just fine. You gave a great example of team improving when returning a lot of their roster. I gave one where it hasn't. Either way, it's no guarantee. If this staff does return, I hope there is enough improvement to be better than what got Pitino fired.
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This team is as good as Pitino's final team.....but with a bunch more potential. Improvement from last year carries over to next year. Ben Johnson is a disaster folks cry themselves to sleep.
 

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