Official Leidner vs. Streveler Megathread

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dboy said:
typical Minnesota Nice statement. 'begin to gauge '??? begin??

100 guys are busting their tails for this team... who is ML that 99 should suffer because ML cannot throw a forward pass?
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I didnt say gauge whether or not he will be our savior, only if he is progressing, and if he really is as rough as he looked the last few games. I think he can be an average QB for us now. Had he an adequate amount of time to develop I think he could have been significantly better. Thats no longer an option. Heres the thing, I think part of our QB problem comes from putting a guy in and or making him starter before he is ready. I feel like starting CS5 for any other reason than because Mitch is hurt is not a good long term move for Chris, or the team. Short term, it can create tension in the locker room, plus how often does CS5 get with first team to work on timing with WRs and everything else?

Listen CS5's upside right now is negligible if any (most likely) over Mitch. I'll let the coaches determine that. And if that's the case, I'd rather let CS5 get some more time to learn and mature before throwing him in there, rather than continue on the same path we've been in at that position for five years now and starting a guy before he's ready.

Thanks for calling me nice, I needed a compliment this morning.
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
The problem is not Leidner, it's that we can't retain our QB's. If we had Shortell & Nelson on the team still we'd all be feeling a lot more confident. Leidner is a guy who should have gotten his shot as a R-Jr or R-Sr. When you throw young guys to the wolves you can ruin them. Much like in boxing, where you don't want to overmatch a talented young fighter.
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Couldn't agree less. Sorry buddy but this kid cannot throw the football and the last time I checked that's sort of a large requirement for any QB. When throwing, he seriously looks like a HS QB at best. Guy cannot throw a spiral to save his life, is wildly inaccurate, makes poor late decisions, and lacks the arm strength.

He is a great kid don't get me wrong, plays his ass off, is a tough SOB etc. But and it's a BIG BUT he cannot throw the ball. He had the same problems last year had all offseason to work on his passing game and has not made one stride!!!! He played against two weak teams prior to this game and was given ample opportunities to throw the ball and failed. Lets all get a clue! Mitch is what he is a one dimensional Moose of a RB but let's not kid ourselves and think that he's going to miraculously learn how to throw the football.
 

jaymil said:
This is the perfect opportunity to give Streveler a shot against SJSU. We should win regardless of who plays QB. If Streveler looks good then let him play in the Big House. If he struggles, then at least Leidner got an extra week to heal. Seems pretty simple to me. I guess it depends on what Leidner's injury actually is though.
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I think this is the correct answer. Health of the QB has been a convenient out for Kill in the past and I half expect him to do the same now.

Its a great way to give someone a trial without "benching" anyone.
 


Hmm makes me wonder if one coach is saying its a broken bone so Mitcheroo now sits while another coach is stating it is not broken so Mitcheroo plays. Let's see how this goes. My money is on the coach who is saying 'it's broke and Mitcheroo needs to sit down'.
 


westcoastgopher11 said:
I think this is the correct answer. Health of the QB has been a convenient out for Kill in the past and I half expect him to do the same now. Its a great way to give someone a trial without "benching" anyone.
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Well said.
 

Wouldn't You like to Know said:
Couldn't agree less. Sorry buddy but this kid cannot throw the football and the last time I checked that's sort of a large requirement for any QB. When throwing, he seriously looks like a HS QB at best. Guy cannot throw a spiral to save his life, is wildly inaccurate, makes poor late decisions, and lacks the arm strength.

He is a great kid don't get me wrong, plays his ass off, is a tough SOB etc. But and it's a BIG BUT he cannot throw the ball. He had the same problems last year had all offseason to work on his passing game and has not made one stride!!!! He played against two weak teams prior to this game and was given ample opportunities to throw the ball and failed. Lets all get a clue! Mitch is what he is a one dimensional Moose of a RB but let's not kid ourselves and think that he's going to miraculously learn how to throw the football.
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You really believe Leidner can't throw a spiral & has a weak arm? I'm luke warm on Leidner, but claiming he can't throw a spiral is nonsense. Also, by all accounts he's got a gun for an arm. Seems to me it's a combination of A) bad decision making & B) crap pass protection. I don't believe there's a QB we can realistically get that's going to come in & star as a Freshman. It seems to me we need to keep these guys around for more than a year & hope they progress as players.
 

You don't start a true-freshman walk-on......that's the mindset that got us into this disaster.
A sophomore, ML7, is our senior man, our problem consists of.....how long has it been since
we've had an upperclassmen QB?? Next year, we need a JUCO or JR transfer QB.

Word is ML7 has a broken toe, now?

The rest of the year, or at least Saturday, roll with Streveler.
He brings an upbeat tempo to the offense, he walks on the field and he's bouncing up and down,
smile on his face, he's uptempo, quick release, quick decision. Mitch walks out there and he
looks terrified or confused. Will CS5 end up being worse than ML7? Maybe, now's the time
to find out the hard way.
 

The Boston Streveler might have some different skills than Mitcheroo but the coaches are going to call the same game for both. just googled what the Boston Strangler really was...ughhhhh. awful.
 



Costa Rican Gopher said:
You really believe Leidner can't throw a spiral & has a weak arm? I'm luke warm on Leidner, but claiming he can't throw a spiral is nonsense. Also, by all accounts he's got a gun for an arm. Seems to me it's a combination of A) bad decision making & B) crap pass protection. I don't believe there's a QB we can realistically get that's going to come in & star as a Freshman. It seems to me we need to keep these guys around for more than a year & hope they progress as players.
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Look back at his passes and count the number of spirals, you won't find many. I could care less if he can throw a spiral w/o pads in practice just look at the game film! Gun for an arm?!?! He doesn't look like Bret Favre to me. He's got an Okay arm at best. Can't agree with (B) see the first two games plus he holds on to the ball WAY too long. This is Mitch's 3rd year in the program. No more excuses.

Yes, that would be ideal to wait until their 3rd (this is Mitch's 3rd year) or 4th year.. Although Mitch really doesn't fit into that category. Plus look at all of the 1st or 2nd year QB's across the country having success over the years. It's not like it can't be done. Jordan Lynch played as a back up much like Mitch did last year as a RS FR under Kill and did just fine & Chandler Harnish started 9 games as a RS FR and averaged 152 yards per game!! I bet we could have realistically had either of those two!
 

Costa Rican Gopher said:
The problem is not Leidner, it's that we can't retain our QB's. If we had Shortell & Nelson on the team still we'd all be feeling a lot more confident. Leidner is a guy who should have gotten his shot as a R-Jr or R-Sr. When you throw young guys to the wolves you can ruin them. Much like in boxing, where you don't want to overmatch a talented young fighter.
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I disagree. I really don't think it matters when Leidner got his shot. He isn't a Big Ten QB and I think that was made very clear on Saturday vs. TCU.

2 plays on Saturday summed this up for me:
1.Leidner scrambling out of the pocket inside our own 10 attempts to throw a pass over a TCU linemen who is 1 foot away and it is nearly intercepted
2. Leidner doesn't feel the pocket collapsing and when it is too late he attempts to 2 hand toss the ball to a RB in the middle of the field that he couldn't see. Luckily he was wrapped up instead of giving TCU another gift INT.

Bottom line is he doesn't seem to be able to "feel the rush", he only locks on 1 receiver and even when that 1 receiver is open he still can't hit him. He isn't even that good of a runner and doesn't seem too bright because if we lack depth at QB stop lowering your shoulder into a 250 pound LB, be smart and slide.

If Kill wants to win here he has to get a QB who can move around the pocket well enough but most importantly he can actually throw! We have a strong enough stable of RBs that we don't need a QB running to give us yards.
 

Name, i agree with you but Mitcheroo wasn't Dr JeKill and Mr Lime's QB of choice. it was the best of the lot at a point in time and they went with it. you can't blame em for that. Mitcheroo is an M Man and put in his time in the Classroom/weightroom/filmroom.
 

Wouldn't You like to Know said:
Look back at his passes and count the number of spirals, you won't find many. I could care less if he can throw a spiral w/o pads in practice just look at the game film! Gun for an arm?!?! He doesn't look like Bret Favre to me. He's got an Okay arm at best. Can't agree with (B) see the first two games plus he holds on to the ball WAY too long. This is Mitch's 3rd year in the program. No more excuses.

Yes, that would be ideal to wait until their 3rd (this is Mitch's 3rd year) or 4th year.. Although Mitch really doesn't fit into that category. Plus look at all of the 1st or 2nd year QB's across the country having success over the years. It's not like it can't be done. Jordan Lynch played as a back up much like Mitch did last year as a RS FR under Kill and did just fine & Chandler Harnish started 9 games as a RS FR and averaged 152 yards per game!! I bet we could have realistically had either of those two!
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How many games are you willing to give Streveler before you want to go to Perra?
 



gophers141 said:
I disagree. I really don't think it matters when Leidner got his shot. He isn't a Big Ten QB and I think that was made very clear on Saturday vs. TCU.

2 plays on Saturday summed this up for me:
1.Leidner scrambling out of the pocket inside our own 10 attempts to throw a pass over a TCU linemen who is 1 foot away and it is nearly intercepted
2. Leidner doesn't feel the pocket collapsing and when it is too late he attempts to 2 hand toss the ball to a RB in the middle of the field that he couldn't see. Luckily he was wrapped up instead of giving TCU another gift INT.

Bottom line is he doesn't seem to be able to "feel the rush", he only locks on 1 receiver and even when that 1 receiver is open he still can't hit him. He isn't even that good of a runner and doesn't seem too bright because if we lack depth at QB stop lowering your shoulder into a 250 pound LB, be smart and slide.

If Kill wants to win here he has to get a QB who can move around the pocket well enough but most importantly he can actually throw! We have a strong enough stable of RBs that we don't need a QB running to give us yards.
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I don't think Leidner is great, in fact I've been accused of being a Leidner hater on a few occasions. I just don't think switching QBs over and over is the answer. From what I've seen Liedner is a much better passer than Streveler. So what happens if Streveler looks bad against SJSU & we get dominated at Michigan, would you want to switch QB's again? Perra? What if he looks like a Freshman walk-on? Connor Rhoda? Kill has said he won't play McKinzy this year. Evetually you have to go with the best of the bunch & hope they get better.
 


Wouldn't You like to Know said:
Not saying that. Just what I observe from Mitch. Said the same things last year about the kid, was a much bigger Nelson guy.
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You may not have said it, but CRG is right and you know it is true. You'll go from Streveler to Perra to Rhoda if need be. Probably asking for Teddy on the Viking board too. No worries, you arent alone on GH.

I'm not a ML7 apologist. Was also a much bigger PN9 fan. I also would like to see CS5 start Saturday. But, all this "worst QB in 40-years", "can't throw a spiral", and (my favorite) "he doesn't have a smile on his face" talk is so dumb. It's not "look at this still picture" dumb, but close. Perra and DRM need to redshirt. Croft will too. ML is our starter. He isn't great, but has played well before. He is capable of playing well again... even with a frown.
 

Hard to say where we go from here. It wasn't just Leidner that looked poor on saturday. It was the entire team. But what exactly was expected? TCU is a very good football team and it showed. I think it is too early to be calling for Streveler. We kind of knew what we had with Leidner prior to this game. Below average passer. Some of us held out hope that we were simply holding back the playbook. Not really. We just don't have the personell to run a balanced offense. I'd like to think that the coaching staff knows what they are doing.....and will play the QB who will give us the best chance to win. However, I've noticed that the staff tends to be on the stubborn side when it comes to game philosophy. Look no further than the insistance on running a slow developing draw play on 3rd and short. I'll never understand why this is used so frequently. I expect that Leidner will be starting this coming saturday.....and will undoubtedly look better than he did this previous week. Three weeks into the season is far too early for knee jerk reactions. Only Kill and staff are qualified enough to determine whether a freshman QB is ready to take over, and until we get a couple games into the Big Ten, we cannot reasonably project who should be starting. I will say this however.....in a few more games.....if the passing game continues to be anemic and we drop a few games that we should win.....then it will be time to consider a change in direction. If Leidner isn't the guy moving forward.....and we are looking at a lost season (which we are not as of right now).....reassess the QB position in order to best prepare for the future. Streveler and Perra are not on the roster because the staff has doubts that they can play. At least one has to be considered a potential starter at some point in time.
 

BTW - those that have already written off CS5 should be examined.
 

Spoofin said:
You may not have said it, but CRG is right and you know it is true. You'll go from Streveler to Perra to Rhoda if need be. Probably asking for Teddy on the Viking board too. No worries, you arent alone on GH.

I'm not a ML7 apologist. Was also a much bigger PN9 fan. I also would like to see CS5 start Saturday. But, all this "worst QB in 40-years", "can't throw a spiral", and (my favorite) "he doesn't have a smile on his face" talk is so dumb. It's not "look at this still picture" dumb, but close. Perra and DRM need to redshirt. Croft will too. ML is our starter. He isn't great, but has played well before. He is capable of playing well again... even with a frown.
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Ummm... Not being able to throw a spiral is a problem. All of the other stuff I've never said. Mitch just can't play the QB position for a B1G team. Not saying we need to keep switching QB's nor will I. I always thought Nelson was the better guy and was actually unhappy every time Leidner entered the game.

Played well!?!?! Not so much my friend. Running all over low-level FBS or top-flight FCS opponents doesn't mean he played well. Please note, that Nelson was our starting QB (except NE but played the major role in the W) through our 4 game B1G winning streak NOT Leidner. ALL of Mitch's stats are running the football. Had one really good game last year against this weeks opponent running the football! Last time I checked a QB has to throw the football guys. Again, he's a nice kid. Hard working kid. Tough kid. But a QB he is not (Yoda Voice). If we have to rely on him all year at QB we are in trouble!!
 

Spoofin said:
You may not have said it, but CRG is right and you know it is true. You'll go from Streveler to Perra to Rhoda if need be. Probably asking for Teddy on the Viking board too. No worries, you arent alone on GH.

I'm not a ML7 apologist. Was also a much bigger PN9 fan. I also would like to see CS5 start Saturday. But, all this "worst QB in 40-years", "can't throw a spiral", and (my favorite) "he doesn't have a smile on his face" talk is so dumb. It's not "look at this still picture" dumb, but close. Perra and DRM need to redshirt. Croft will too. ML is our starter. He isn't great, but has played well before. He is capable of playing well again... even with a frown.
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I have to say I agree with everything in your post, Spoof.
 

Wouldn't You like to Know said:
Ummm... Not being able to throw a spiral is a problem. All of the other stuff I've never said. Mitch just can't play the QB position for a B1G team. Not saying we need to keep switching QB's nor will I. I always thought Nelson was the better guy and was actually unhappy every time Leidner entered the game.

Played well!?!?! Not so much my friend. Running all over low-level FBS or top-flight FCS opponents doesn't mean he played well. Please note, that Nelson was our starting QB (except NE but played the major role in the W) through our 4 game B1G winning streak NOT Leidner. ALL of Mitch's stats are running the football. Had one really good game last year against this weeks opponent running the football! Last time I checked a QB has to throw the football guys. Again, he's a nice kid. Hard working kid. Tough kid. But a QB he is not (Yoda Voice). If we have to rely on him all year at QB we are in trouble!!
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Cant disagree with much of that.

Honest question though: if your coach you start CS5, you continue to start him over Mitch? If so, lets say CS5 gets hurt, you bring Mitch back in or you going to somebody else?
If so your essentially writing off ML7 for the rest of his career, plus your now putting the other young QBs in a position that they may have to burn redshirts or play when they are no where near ready and risk ruining them by doing so. We have been down that road before.

Just curious on your thoughts.
 

minibeaver said:
Cant disagree with much of that.

Honest question though: if your coach you start CS5, you continue to start him over Mitch? If so, lets say CS5 gets hurt, you bring Mitch back in or you going to somebody else?
If so your essentially writing off ML7 for the rest of his career, plus your now putting the other young QBs in a position that they may have to burn redshirts or play when they are no where near ready and risk ruining them by doing so. We have been down that road before.

Just curious on your thoughts.
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You play the best players, period, if that's Mitch than so be it. I am in the camp that says "let's see what Chris can do." We all know what Mitch can do at this point and IMO this is the perfect time to see what Chris can do since Mitch is banged up. If Chris is the guy AND gets injured and Mitch is healthy I think that the staff needs to play who they think gives them the best chance to win to this year.

Going forward, I think that we need to go out and get a QB looking to transfer with some experience or a JUCO in the off season to spice up the competition. We simply cannot afford to rely on Freshman and Sophomores alone.
 


Wouldn't You like to Know said:
You play the best players, period, if that's Mitch than so be it. I am in the camp that says "let's see what Chris can do." We all know what Mitch can do at this point and IMO this is the perfect time to see what Chris can do since Mitch is banged up. If Chris is the guy AND gets injured and Mitch is healthy I think that the staff needs to play who they think gives them the best chance to win to this year.

Going forward, I think that we need to go out and get a QB looking to transfer with some experience or a JUCO in the off season to spice up the competition. We simply cannot afford to rely on Freshman and Sophomores alone.
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Im all for CS5 getting the start IF Mitch is still banged up.

If there were someone on our roster that was a game changer we would have seen him already. Its Mitch and CS5. No one behind those guys are ready and what upside if any there would be to playing them now would be negated by the possibility of hindering their potential in the future.

I'm all for a JUCO QB. We are down a couple anyway with the transfers so it would make sense.
 

minibeaver said:
I thought that was strange too, especially considering Kills mantra of competition, and best guy plays. However, Kill is well aware of our recent qb history of mid-season changes. Ideally, he wanted Mitch to start only as a Junior or Senior, and probably feels starting him before he was ready has hindered his development. He doesn't want to do that again to yet another QB, especially if he is not a SIGNIFICANT upgrade. I dont believe CS5 is

Keep Mitch in, let the QBs under him learn and have the time to mature before they get thrown in the fire; time that Nelson, and Mitch himself weren't afforded but desperately needed.
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Minibeave, you make a lot of sense on this issue to me. That being said if Moose is hobbled and if his health will improve considerably by taking this game off, I say start CS and hope that ML doesn't need to come in as a reliever.
 

I can't wait for a day when we don't have a QB controversy.
 

Please raise your hand if you are convinced we are starting receivers that would be starting for any other Big Ten team? We aren't. We have one guy on offense that would likely be starting for any other conference team, and that is a Tight End. So you take a too young and not overly talented or fast group of wide receivers, add in an average Offensive Line (all the koolaid said they'd be a team strength this year) and you add to it any number of too young and not overly talented QB's and what do you get? You get what we have. While I'd like to see CS5, I'm not convinced Johnny Manziel would be putting up 300+ yards a game passing with the rest of our offense (or pick any top QB). So I've come to the conclusion that we won't see a lot of improvement out of any of our QBs or the offense for the rest of the year. We're still 2 years from a legit offense, period.
 

Sparlimb said:
Please raise your hand if you are convinced we are starting receivers that would be starting for any other Big Ten team? We aren't. We have one guy on offense that would likely be starting for any other conference team, and that is a Tight End. So you take a too young and not overly talented or fast group of wide receivers, add in an average Offensive Line (all the koolaid said they'd be a team strength this year) and you add to it any number of too young and not overly talented QB's and what do you get? You get what we have. While I'd like to see CS5, I'm not convinced Johnny Manziel would be putting up 300+ yards a game passing with the rest of our offense (or pick any top QB). So I've come to the conclusion that we won't see a lot of improvement out of any of our QBs or the offense for the rest of the year. We're still 2 years from a legit offense, period.
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Please tell me that the bold was intended as hyperbole.
 

^^ Sparlimb - aside from any potential discussion of players on the margin or more subjective (i.e. our whole O-line), you're obviously ignoring our arguably top-4 in conference (when healthy) running back?
 

e.bigelow said:
I can't wait for a day when we don't have a QB controversy.
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Can't wait for the day we have a QB who, when he throws, most of us aren't holding our breath wondering where it will end-up.
 

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