Northwestern's two scores...the spot and the defensive holding call

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Sorry but I'm still trying to come to terms with the two TDs they scored.

On the first it looked like we clearly we stopped them on 4th down and then they spotted the ball on the 34 when the replay clearly showed the player never even made the 36 yard line. Even after the clear evidence of the replay they still spotted it at the 34.

On the second TD we stopped them again. The ball was clearly uncatchable and we get hit with a defensive holding call

Can anyone talk ne off the ledge here. I am getting fed up with us seemingly getting hit with these types of calls. There seems to be a long history of bad calls going against us that has cost us several games. I won't even start to list them but I could.

Are we suspect to get these calls since we are not B1G elite or are we really committing these penalties and I'm just being a homer?

What gives?? In my mind that game should have been 35-0, if our O-line had their act together
 

The 4th down conversion that was reviewed and upheld was atrocious. There is absolutely no point in reviewing the spot of the ball if that call can't get overturned. I have nothing to make you feel better. Big Ten refs man...
 

In terms of the defensive holding call, I think it was absolutely the correct call and I don't think defensive holding gets negated if the ball is uncatchable. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was only pass interference.

The fourth down spot is a different story, and I think it's another perfect illustration of one of my biggest frustrations with officiating right now: the term "inconclusive" has become way too widely used. If you have video that shows that there is a 90% chance that the team didn't get the first down, despite what was called on the field, the call should be overturned. I just feel like referees, both in the NCAA and NFL, have become too reliant on finding inconclusive evidence and end up upholding calls that should be overturned more often than not.
 

Ask the Arizona Cardinals coach about officiating after Sunday's Vikings game.

In the end, it's up to the team to not put itself in a position where a bad call can decide a game. If you don't want to get called for PI or Defensive holding, don't put you hands on the receiver. If you're worried about getting hosed on a bad spot, tackle the guy sooner or break up the pass.

In the end, I honestly think that calls even out. Some iffy calls go one way, some iffy calls go the other way. I remember at least one close play where they gave the Gophers a 1st down without measuring. For all we know, the refs could hose WI next week on a play that helps the Gophers win. If that happens, we will not see any posts complaining about bad officiating. (at least not from Gopher fans.........)
 

Okie said:
In terms of the defensive holding call, I think it was absolutely the correct call and I don't think defensive holding gets negated if the ball is uncatchable. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was only pass interference.

The fourth down spot is a different story, and I think it's another perfect illustration of one of my biggest frustrations with officiating right now: the term "inconclusive" has become way too widely used. If you have video that shows that there is a 90% chance that the team didn't get the first down, despite what was called on the field, the call should be overturned. I just feel like referees, both in the NCAA and NFL, have become too reliant on finding inconclusive evidence and end up upholding calls that should be overturned more often than not.
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Pretty sure holding is called before ball is in the air...otherwise it becomes pass interference.
 


Upholding the spot giving NW the 1st down on their 4th down play was a horrid spot by the officiating crew, and the fact that it was upheld after a video review was an atrocity. The game outcome was still in question, and it had the chance to be a huge factor. Had to believe.
 


PMWinSTP said:
Pretty sure holding is called before ball is in the air...otherwise it becomes pass interference.
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We were all screaming about the pass being uncatchable. Only works if they called a holding instead. Then they announced 'Holding"....
 

I had a great vantage point on that spot at the 34 and knew immediately it was wrong. When they reviewed it I was sure they would re-spot it and like many others was shocked they upheld the original spot. It sure felt like the refs wanted to make it a game at our detriment.
 



As others have said holding takes place before ball is in the air.

I thought the spot was bad and too much progress was given. Only thing I could think was the yellow line was off.

Simple innovation is to have first down judges, that is their only job. Other sports have judges that can't call penalties.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

When the side judge spotted the ball, why didn't they set the ball down and measure it with the chains?
 

GFBfan said:
When the side judge spotted the ball, why didn't they set the ball down and measure it with the chains?
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Most first downs start on a line or hash, so the officials know that if the ball is over the line or hash it's a first down.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

I get that, but he marked the spot about halfway between the sideline and numbers. There's no way he could tell it was a first down by using the yardlines as a guide because the ball wasn't on one. It takes 30 seconds to bring the chains out to measure and when it's that close a measurement should have happened.
 



I had to listen to the game on the radio so haven't seen it yet. But Grimm and Thompson were going crazy about the 4th down play. Said first of all, the ref coming in to mark the spot didn't go in a straight line. Then were ticked off they didn't at least measure it. And then finally thought it was ridiculous the spot wasn't overturned.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
Ask the Arizona Cardinals coach about officiating after Sunday's Vikings game.

In the end, it's up to the team to not put itself in a position where a bad call can decide a game. If you don't want to get called for PI or Defensive holding, don't put you hands on the receiver. If you're worried about getting hosed on a bad spot, tackle the guy sooner or break up the pass.

In the end, I honestly think that calls even out. Some iffy calls go one way, some iffy calls go the other way. I remember at least one close play where they gave the Gophers a 1st down without measuring. For all we know, the refs could hose WI next week on a play that helps the Gophers win. If that happens, we will not see any posts complaining about bad officiating. (at least not from Gopher fans.........)
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The conspiracy theory crowd like the person that started this thread won't accept that because they have decided the Big Ten has mandated that the Gophers get screwed in every game by the refs.

I can recall a play where Ayinde easily should have been called for pass interference and wasn't. I am sure there are plenty of Northwestern fans right now moaning about the refs and missed calls. Human error is part of the game, but there are a number of people that are desperate to believe it is something more than that so they go hunting for every injustice and use it as proof that the Big Ten is out to get us.

Typically though we only get these threads after we lose, for some reason they are much harder to find after a victory....this thread would be one of those rare exceptions I guess.
 

MNVCGUY said:
The conspiracy theory crowd like the person that started this thread won't accept that because they have decided the Big Ten has mandated that the Gophers get screwed in every game by the refs.

I can recall a play where Ayinde easily should have been called for pass interference and wasn't. I am sure there are plenty of Northwestern fans right now moaning about the refs and missed calls. Human error is part of the game, but there are a number of people that are desperate to believe it is something more than that so they go hunting for every injustice and use it as proof that the Big Ten is out to get us.

Typically though we only get these threads after we lose, for some reason they are much harder to find after a victory....this thread would be one of those rare exceptions I guess.
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I also recall this play. What I also recall was Hank Ekpe, beating the LT in 0.2 seconds, then on his way to demolish Thorson, when he got dragged down by the back of his jersey by the aforementioned beaten LT literally right in front of the head referee. No call. There's your "balance."
 

Yes, there is really no explanation for the non -call of many egregious penalties yet we often see absurdly ticky-tack penalties called. Incompetence always has to be looked for prior to bias or malfeasance but sometimes it is hard. These are human beings.

No conspiracy theory. Maybe the officials need to be looking with more concentration at the players close to the play and ball rather than checking out the cheerleaders or live-tweeting. If a defender is dragged down on his way to the QB, that is holding.
 

As I have stated previously, spotting the ball really shouldn't be a "guess". Spot the ball where it is when the whistle blows to stop the play. Forget this b.s. about forward momentum. Spot the ball at the point it is located when either the knee, elbow, butt, hits the ground. Far to many times have we seen the QB or ball carrier tackled behind the L.O.S. only to have the ball spotted forward because the ball carrier MAY have reached that point. That's a guess. Where was the ball when the ball carrier was brought to the ground. Spot it that point. Same goes for pass receiver. How many times have we seen the ball spotted forward from where the ball was blown dead. Spot the ball where he was tackled or forced out of bounds. Not where the official thinks the ball was advanced. And you know when an official runs into the "pile" to spot the ball. Simply a guess.
 

I was listening on the radio at the time of the bad spot, but I don't doubt that it was one, and it doesn't surprise me. I don't know why, but there seems to be a systematic generous spot thing going on in the college game this year, and it's always in favor of the offense. Instead of spotting it where the player goes down, they tend to round up to the nearest even yard marker or beyond. I can't even say how many times I've seen 9-yard gains turn into first downs this year. It's almost as though they don't want to go through the hassle of measuring, so they just give it to them.
 

Bad Gopher said:
I was listening on the radio at the time of the bad spot, but I don't doubt that it was one, and it doesn't surprise me. I don't know why, but there seems to be a systematic generous spot thing going on in the college game this year, and it's always in favor of the offense. Instead of spotting it where the player goes down, they tend to round up to the nearest even yard marker or beyond. I can't even say how many times I've seen 9-yard gains turn into first downs this year. It's almost as though they don't want to go through the hassle of measuring, so they just give it to them.
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Problem is, that in this instance, there appeared to be ZERO forward progress beyond the point of contact. It was a very good defensive stop... Forward progress was rewarded where there was none. Human error on the field? Sure, but with a 2 minute video review by the officials and coming up with the wrong spot? That is the issue at hand.
 

CurveballJesus said:
I also recall this play. What I also recall was Hank Ekpe, beating the LT in 0.2 seconds, then on his way to demolish Thorson, when he got dragged down by the back of his jersey by the aforementioned beaten LT literally right in front of the head referee. No call. There's your "balance."
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So to be clear then you are accusing the ref of intentionally cheating in order to favor Northwestern presumably at the direction of the BIG. Seems like this would be a pretty big story that the media would love to get ahold of. But maybe they are in on it too? I wonder how high the conspiracy goes.....was Trump involved somehow? It's the only thing that makes sense....
 

Jack jones said:
As I have stated previously, spotting the ball really shouldn't be a "guess". Spot the ball where it is when the whistle blows to stop the play. Forget this b.s. about forward momentum. Spot the ball at the point it is located when either the knee, elbow, butt, hits the ground. Far to many times have we seen the QB or ball carrier tackled behind the L.O.S. only to have the ball spotted forward because the ball carrier MAY have reached that point. That's a guess. Where was the ball when the ball carrier was brought to the ground. Spot it that point. Same goes for pass receiver. How many times have we seen the ball spotted forward from where the ball was blown dead. Spot the ball where he was tackled or forced out of bounds. Not where the official thinks the ball was advanced. And you know when an official runs into the "pile" to spot the ball. Simply a guess.
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And, again, that doesn't make any sense. Say you have 3rd and 1 and the runner gets comfortably past the first down marker, but then gets pushed back 3-4 yards by the gang of tacklers there to meet him. So you spot the ball 3 yards back and it's 4th and 4? Brilliant take!
 

MNVCGUY said:
So to be clear then you are accusing the ref of intentionally cheating in order to favor Northwestern presumably at the direction of the BIG. Seems like this would be a pretty big story that the media would love to get ahold of. But maybe they are in on it too? I wonder how high the conspiracy goes.....was Trump involved somehow? It's the only thing that makes sense....
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No conspiracy theory, just pointing out the flawed example of the post I quoted. Deep breaths... Ooooosaaaaa...
 

Those refs were really bad. They need to start reviewing games and disciplining refs. Not just the bad calls against us but the mix ups on the announcements like the pass interference at the end of the game and the confusion on on the spot where they stopped the game go go back and check again. I know their jobs are hard and i don't envy them but they have to find more consistent refs.
 

GFBfan said:
When the side judge spotted the ball, why didn't they set the ball down and measure it with the chains?
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The problem is that the chains had already moved to the new first down spot prior to the video review of the fourth down play, so it would have been very difficult to go back and try to determine exactly where the previous first down yard marker should have been.

The spot wasn't that bad considering the guy caught it just inside the 35, and the official gave him forward progress there. Since the spot wasn't way off and there was no hope in going back for a measurement, I can understand why the call stood.
 

Referees today decide in their head if the think the runner got the first down or not, and as previously stated, always round up first down plays to a yard line, so they take the info "in their head" about "1st down or not" and then spot the ball accordingly (usually half a yard short, or the nose of the ball beyond the line to gain).
Yes, it is to speed up the game and avoid measurements. However, they should never do this for close 3rd down plays, let alone 4th down plays. It looks terrible. In critical spots, they should forget all of the above and spot it as accurately as they can, ignoring the line to gain. I don't really care if they are generous on a 1st or second down play, but they need to be better with the critical spots.
 

Jack jones said:
As I have stated previously, spotting the ball really shouldn't be a "guess". Spot the ball where it is when the whistle blows to stop the play. Forget this b.s. about forward momentum. Spot the ball at the point it is located when either the knee, elbow, butt, hits the ground. Far to many times have we seen the QB or ball carrier tackled behind the L.O.S. only to have the ball spotted forward because the ball carrier MAY have reached that point. That's a guess. Where was the ball when the ball carrier was brought to the ground. Spot it that point. Same goes for pass receiver. How many times have we seen the ball spotted forward from where the ball was blown dead. Spot the ball where he was tackled or forced out of bounds. Not where the official thinks the ball was advanced. And you know when an official runs into the "pile" to spot the ball. Simply a guess.
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A change like this would be horrible for the game. It would be hard to watch. Most offensive players would dive to the ground when they get close to a defender because of fear of getting pushed back 5 yards before getting tackled to the ground.

And there's guessing no matter what you do. They have to do their best guess as to exactly where the ball is when the knee, elbow, or butt hits the ground.
 

Section2 said:
Referees today decide in their head if the think the runner got the first down or not, and as previously stated, always round up first down plays to a yard line, so they take the info "in their head" about "1st down or not" and then spot the ball accordingly (usually half a yard short, or the nose of the ball beyond the line to gain).
Yes, it is to speed up the game and avoid measurements. However, they should never do this for close 3rd down plays, let alone 4th down plays. It looks terrible. In critical spots, they should forget all of the above and spot it as accurately as they can, ignoring the line to gain. I don't really care if they are generous on a 1st or second down play, but they need to be better with the critical spots.
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I agree with everything you say. However, it's nearly impossible if officials are trained to always trail the play down field. It was 4th and 5 with a 5 yard pass. Nearly impossible for the officials to get a great angle on the play. Best view is likely the official on the complete other side of the field. I still don't understand why replay could not give a better spot and then measure. If was 4th down and fans expect a measurement on critical spots on 4th down.
 

josh087 said:
The problem is that the chains had already moved to the new first down spot prior to the video review of the fourth down play, so it would have been very difficult to go back and try to determine exactly where the previous first down yard marker should have been.

The spot wasn't that bad considering the guy caught it just inside the 35, and the official gave him forward progress there. Since the spot wasn't way off and there was no hope in going back for a measurement, I can understand why the call stood.
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It's not hard to go back. Chain crews use clips on the chain to mark the yard line where it runs through the chain. They should be alternating two clips and shouldn't remove the old clip until the next 1st down play is run.
 

MaxyJR1 said:
I agree with everything you say. However, it's nearly impossible if officials are trained to always trail the play down field. It was 4th and 5 with a 5 yard pass. Nearly impossible for the officials to get a great angle on the play. Best view is likely the official on the complete other side of the field. I still don't understand why replay could not give a better spot and then measure. If was 4th down and fans expect a measurement on critical spots on 4th down.
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It's not as hard as you think, definitely not impossible to be pretty accurate from that range. Usually on forward progress, the official will look across the field for help from the opposing wing. It was just a bad spot, maybe his eyes were elsewhere and he was guessing, hard to say. I was at the game so I didn't get very good replays, I just know that my eyes at the time told me it was a terrible spot.
 

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