Northwestern Players Want a Union

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

They are not AT ALL forced to go to school. They can play overseas (Brandon Jennings). They can train with pros until they're NFL eligible. They can play CFL or Arena as far as I'm aware.

Not only that, but why the hell would it be the NCAA's problem if the NFL / NBA are prohibiting them from joining those leagues?

Thanks FryGuy, I cannot believe how often it is repeated that people with pro aspirations "need" to go to school. They make whatever deal they want with whatever league will have them. Let's not forget, when the NHL wouldn't allow players to draft 17 year olds, the WHA said "we'll take them" and then Gordie Howe (Mr. Hockey) ended up there because they would draft his 17 year old kid. Anyone is free to set up a competing league with whatever rules they want.

 

[dpodoll68]

Good for you. For a primer, see the O'Bannon lawsuit and look up the legal definitions of a cartel and collusion without a CBA or a federal exemption.

So, when someone brings a lawsuit, that means laws are being broken? If I bring a lawsuit against you for throwing around meaningless sensationalist drivel, does that mean you're doing illegal things by posting meaningless sensationalist drivel on this board? Sound logic.

 

[dpodoll68]

Thanks FryGuy, I cannot believe how often it is repeated that people with pro aspirations "need" to go to school. They make whatever deal they want with whatever league will have them. Let's not forget, when the NHL wouldn't allow players to draft 17 year olds, the WHA said "we'll take them" and then Gordie Howe (Mr. Hockey) ended up there because they would draft his 17 year old kid. Anyone is free to set up a competing league with whatever rules they want.

But but but...how did the WHA do that? No one could compete with the NCAA but the NFL itself!!!

 

[Gopherguy0723]

So, when someone brings a lawsuit, that means laws are being broken? If I bring a lawsuit against you for throwing around meaningless sensationalist drivel, does that mean you're doing illegal things by posting meaningless sensationalist drivel on this board? Sound logic.

I gave you points of reference to educate yourself. I'm not here to educate you because you have no interest in being educated. No one here owes you an explanation or a response on anything.

 

[RodentRampage]

Thanks FryGuy, I cannot believe how often it is repeated that people with pro aspirations "need" to go to school. They make whatever deal they want with whatever league will have them. Let's not forget, when the NHL wouldn't allow players to draft 17 year olds, the WHA said "we'll take them" and then Gordie Howe (Mr. Hockey) ended up there because they would draft his 17 year old kid. Anyone is free to set up a competing league with whatever rules they want.

The real issue is professional leagues that refuse to take players right out of high school, and that's not the fault of colleges. Sue the pro leagues.

Here's an article on minor league salaries among various sports. Minor league football appears to get the least pay. The Arena League is made of players who couldn't (or at least couldn't yet) make the NFL. If instead of castoffs, a minor league had players who might be the NFL stars of the future, minor league football might be able to pay more.

While most people tune in to watch major league sports on television and plan trips around visits to major league sports venues, for game-day fun most people visit minor league arenas, ballparks, stadiums, and ice rinks. When a trip to a major city is out of the question, Americans can still get their game-day fix by watching local minor-league teams compete, often for low salaries. In the aftermath of an Arena Football League (AFL) owner firing his entire Pittsburgh Power team just before its game against the Orlando Predators, a look at the salaries and pay scales of minor-league athletes:
Football

Chris Chase at the Shutdown Corner reports that AFL players typically received $400 per game and the AFL Player's Association recently requested a 200 percent raise, which would have tripled salaries to $1200 per game. AFL owners offered a $100 raise, bringing minor league football players a wage of $500 per game. With 18 games per AFL season, rank-and-file players can bring home as much (or as little) as $9000.

Baseball

Garrett Broshuis at baseballamerica.com writes that, as of 2010, first-year minor league baseball players on Triple-A teams, which are organizations that feed into Major League baseball franchises, earn a minimum of $32,500 per year. Triple-A teams are the top of the minor leagues, however, and salaries decrease substantially with each lower league.

The National Sports and Entertainment Law Society lists monthly starting salaries for minor league baseball players as of 2010:

First-year Triple-A players get $2,150 per month.

First-year Double-A players get $1,500 per month.

First-year Single-A players on full season contracts get $1,050 per month.

First-year Single-A players on short-season contracts get $850 per month.

Basketball

The website ehow.com reports that, according to National Public Radio in 2007, salaries in the National Basketball Association's (NBA) D-league, or Development league, averaged between $12,000 and $24,000 per year. The American Basketball Association (ABA) paid around $10,000 per year.

According to gazette.net, the minor league Premier Basketball League (PBL) paid players between $300 and $700 per week as of 2008.

Hockey

According to the Professional Hockey Players' Association, the American Hockey League (AHL), which feeds into the major league National Hockey League (NHL), starts salaries at $40,500 for the 2012-2013 season. Players "on loan" to the AHL from "lesser leagues" start at $32,500 per year.

Smaller leagues, such as the North American Hockey League (NAHL), pay for hotels and meals, as well as most equipment, but require players to cover all personal expenses.

Soccer

The Washington Post reports that, as of 2007, salaries for Major League Soccer (MLS) in the United States were lower than many minor league salaries in other sports, with 91 out of 356 players earning less than $18,000 a year. The average annual salary in the MLS was about $115,000 in 2007, but fell to only around $80,000 if salaries for foreign stars like David Beckham were not included.

 

[dpodoll68]

I gave you points of reference to educate yourself. I'm not here to educate you because you have no interest in being educated. No one here owes you an explanation or a response on anything.

I never said that they did. But don't get your panties all in a bunch when you get called out on garbage, nonsense statements.

 

[station19]

If the NFL allowed 18 yr olds to play would we even be having this discussion?

 

[RodentRampage]

If the NFL allowed 18 yr olds to play would we even be having this discussion?

Probably not. If they NFL had a minor league, this whole thing would pretty much go away. Let the NFL pay some of their own player development costs. Have all the minor leagues drop their requirements that players finish college. Once that's dealt with, any other grievances the players might have could be dealt with.

If college football players become paid employees, there will probably be thousands of football scholarships eliminated. Many schools wouldn't be able to afford to pay players, so they would drop football entirely.

 

[AO54]

Probably not. If they NFL had a minor league, this whole thing would pretty much go away. Let the NFL pay some of their own player development costs. Have all the minor leagues drop their requirements that players finish college. Once that's dealt with, any other grievances the players might have could be dealt with.

If college football players become paid employees, there will probably be thousands of football scholarships eliminated. Many schools wouldn't be able to afford to pay players, so they would drop football entirely.

You say that as if "football player development" is not a profitable venture for the NCAA. You might see teams drop down to FCS or whatever the future second tier is called. There are leagues and divisions for every level of revenue currently. The Pioneer league doesn't even offer scholarships, they could care less how much the Big Ten is paying.

 

[station19]

If the reason the NCAA/colleges are forced to accept unions and pay players is because you can't play in the NFL at 18, could the NCAA then sue the NFL?

 

[Gopherguy0723]

I never said that they did. But don't get your panties all in a bunch when you get called out on garbage, nonsense statements.

Nothing I said was garbage or nonsense, you've simply made up your mind regardless of the facts. It's not worth my time trying to convince you of anything. Instead, you simply attack those you disagree with. Sometimes you lash at factual arguments, sometimes you lash out at opinions in some attempt to be the thought police on an open forum. I don't know what you're deal is, but you're a rather close-minded and vicious person. I feel sorry for you.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

If the reason the NCAA/colleges are forced to accept unions and pay players is because you can't play in the NFL at 18, could the NCAA then sue the NFL?

No, the NFL has a CBA. It can set up age limits as long as the workers agree. The NCAA is not part of the NFL, so it has no recourse.

 

[RodentRampage]

You say that as if "football player development" is not a profitable venture for the NCAA. You might see teams drop down to FCS or whatever the future second tier is called. There are leagues and divisions for every level of revenue currently. The Pioneer league doesn't even offer scholarships, they could care less how much the Big Ten is paying.

And those teams dropping down would result in a lot less scholarships being offered. If players have to be paid, non-scholarship football presents a problem. If the NCAA can't have a rule banning paying players, how can the Pioneer League have a rule that players not only can't be paid but can't even have scholarships?

The whole problem vanishes if pro leagues can sign players out of high school. No one is forcing schools to be part of the NCAA. If schools want to pay players, they can leave the NCAA. There are multiple ways to comply with Title IX, payment isn't part of it. As it is, men's and women's teams aren't funded equally - if Title IX required the women athletes to be paid if the men are, then it should require equal funding and facilities for the men's and women's teams, but it doesn't.

 

[dpodoll68]

Nothing I said was garbage or nonsense, you've simply made up your mind regardless of the facts. It's not worth my time trying to convince you of anything. Instead, you simply attack those you disagree with. Sometimes you lash at factual arguments, sometimes you lash out at opinions in some attempt to be the thought police on an open forum. I don't know what you're deal is, but you're a rather close-minded and vicious person. I feel sorry for you.

The internetz is serious business.

I'm more than willing to listen to actual facts. Try posting some.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

The internetz is serious business.

I'm more than willing to listen to actual facts. Try posting some.

Nah, I'm done reading what you have to say. Most of what you say has to do with policing opinions and serving your ego. You are officially the first person and last person on my ignore list.

 

[station19]

No, the NFL has a CBA. It can set up age limits as long as the workers agree. The NCAA is not part of the NFL, so it has no recourse.

Why are unions and corporations allowed to discriminate against potential employees on the basis of age?

 

[dpodoll68]

Nah, I'm done reading what you have to say. Most of what you say has to do with policing opinions and serving your ego. You are officially the first person and last person on my ignore list.

Oh no! Not that! Anything but that!

As the sane people on this board realize, a diversity of opinions is fine. When people attempt to pass off their agenda/opinions as fact, that's when I take issue. That you have provided zero substantiation to any of your claims tells me all I need to know about your "opinions".

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Why are unions and corporations allowed to discriminate against potential employees on the basis of age?

The Age Discrimination in Employment Act allows entry level age limits if its part of the industry's bona fide occupational qualifications. The test is if it is reasonably necessary to protect the normal operation of the business. The NFL and NFLPA argue that a certain age range is too small and inexperienced to contribute on an NFL field, and those young players aren't able to adequately protect themselves. Thus, an age requirement is reasonably necessary to protect how the NFL normally operates.

They will openly admit that some players in the banned age range would be able to contribute, but it is reasonable to ban them because most players in that range cannot effectively contribute to the business.

The NFL cannot impose it on its own. It needs to be agreed upon by the NFLPA.

This has been held up in a Federal appellate court.

 

[AO54]

And those teams dropping down would result in a lot less scholarships being offered. If players have to be paid, non-scholarship football presents a problem. If the NCAA can't have a rule banning paying players, how can the Pioneer League have a rule that players not only can't be paid but can't even have scholarships?

The whole problem vanishes if pro leagues can sign players out of high school. No one is forcing schools to be part of the NCAA. If schools want to pay players, they can leave the NCAA. There are multiple ways to comply with Title IX, payment isn't part of it. As it is, men's and women's teams aren't funded equally - if Title IX required the women athletes to be paid if the men are, then it should require equal funding and facilities for the men's and women's teams, but it doesn't.

You can make an argument that a scholarship football player is really an employee. You can't make the same argument for non-scholarship players who in many cases are effectively paying tuition to be able to play football, the same as they pay tuition to take a certain academic class. The Pioneer players are customers, not employees. Nothing will change there.

Money is absolutely a part of title IX. Title IX regulations don't require immediate strict adherence to equality of everything, but you can't move in the other direction. There would absolutely be Title IX lawsuits if the gymnasts were not given a stipend. Conferences like the Big Ten are planning to give every athlete a stipend for this reason.

 

[RodentRampage]

Then drop all scholarships. Problem solved.

 

[CentralGopher]

No, the NFL has a CBA. It can set up age limits as long as the workers agree. The NCAA is not part of the NFL, so it has no recourse.

The NCAA may not have the ability to sue the NFL for not allowing 18 yo kids in the NFL but that wouldn't give the kids the right to sue the NCAA because they choose to go to college before going pro. As stated by someone here earlier it's the NFL that the kids should be suing not the NCAA. It's the NFL's decision to not allow 18yo kids in their league that is making kids feel like they have to go to college first. Nobody is stopping anyone from setting up a competing league with either the NCAA or NFL.

 

[Maverick]

The NCAA may not have the ability to sue the NFL for not allowing 18 yo kids in the NFL but that wouldn't give the kids the right to sue the NCAA because they choose to go to college before going pro. As stated by someone here earlier it's the NFL that the kids should be suing not the NCAA. It's the NFL's decision to not allow 18yo kids in their league that is making kids feel like they have to go to college first. Nobody is stopping anyone from setting up a competing league with either the NCAA or NFL.

Didn't that running back from Ohio state sue the NFL over this very thing? If I remember right he lost....

 

[CentralGopher]

I didn't say they would be successful. Just don't think they have the right to sue the NCAA over an NFL rule.

 

[RodentRampage]

The NCAA may not have the ability to sue the NFL for not allowing 18 yo kids in the NFL but that wouldn't give the kids the right to sue the NCAA because they choose to go to college before going pro. As stated by someone here earlier it's the NFL that the kids should be suing not the NCAA. It's the NFL's decision to not allow 18yo kids in their league that is making kids feel like they have to go to college first. Nobody is stopping anyone from setting up a competing league with either the NCAA or NFL.

Actually, it could go a step further - don't just sue the NFL, but sue all of the leagues that bar 18 year olds from playing. If anything looks like collusion, it's all of the professional leagues agreeing to bar 18 year olds.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Actually, it could go a step further - don't just sue the NFL, but sue all of the leagues that bar 18 year olds from playing. If anything looks like collusion, it's all of the professional leagues agreeing to bar 18 year olds.

The collusion is ok because it's approved by the various unions. Baseball also has an anti-trust exemption. The NCAA has no exemption and it has no CBA. That's why the NCAA is so ripe for litigation. The NCAA and its members are chalk full of collusion and other problems.

Baseball and hockey also allow anyone in.

 

[RodentRampage]

Do these leagues have CBAs? They bar players from playing right out of high school. If they go down this road, what's next? Suppose a player isn't satisfied with 4 years of eligibility, and wants 5, 6, 7 or more years. Just keep playing college football until you can land an NFL gig. It's just one more rule to go out the window. If it comes to that, put an end to this and eliminate all scholarships. If the Pioneer League would not be required to pay players because they are non-scholarship, then you can eliminate the problem entirely be eliminating scholarships.

Arena Football League, 1987–2008, 2010–
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Semi-professional leagues:
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Professional Developmental Football League, 2009–
Stars Professional Spring Football League, 2011–
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Stars Football League, 2011–

 

[mnsportsgeek]

the argument isn't should student athletes be compensated. The argument is are college athletes fairly compensated as many football and basketball players bring in a lot more revenue for their school then their scholarship gives them

I'm late to the party, but isn't this the whole point of how a business works? Apple makes billions of dollars per year. A senior engineer in Cali makes about 100k or a little more.

The school may make millions off of these guys. That doesn't mean they have to give them millions. School and living expenses for 4 years is plenty.

 

[Gopherguy0723]

Joe Nocera wrote another column today regarding the the NCAA and Northwestern. He has some good information that I suspect most people on this board don't know about.

"The phrase 'student-athlete' was, in fact, dreamed up in the 1950s by then-N.C.A.A. President Walter Byers, after it appeared that injured athletes in several states might be allowed to get workers’ compensation. The phrase, write Nicholas Fram and T. Ward Frampton in an article in the Buffalo Law Review, was meant to 'obfuscate the nature of the legal relationship at the heart of a growing commercial enterprise.'”

"Indeed, in a recent court filing in a concussion lawsuit, the N.C.A.A.’s lawyers wrote that 'the N.C.A.A. denies that it has a legal duty to protect student-athletes.'”

The NCAA is corrupt and shameless. Let's hope they get that union.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/01/opinion/nocera-unionized-college-athletes.html?ref=opinion&_r=0

 

[Nate]

Sounds like the players won.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-northwestern-union-bid-20140326,0,6454823.story

 

[bga1]

Sounds like the players won.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-northwestern-union-bid-20140326,0,6454823.story

This will be interesting and probably will not end well. I don't see how colleges can in the future be told that they need to simultaneously treat this like a business transaction between labor and business on the one hand, while on the other hand being compelled to comply with Title IX and provide an equal number of scholarships to non-revenue women's sports. I'm no Title IX scholar so I may have this wrong. Either this is a business deal or it's amateur college athletics. If it becomes all business than they should be allowed to pick who they want to give scholarships to and in what sport.

At the end of the day unionization- if it ends there- would probably mean that the rich programs can handle it and the poorer programs will cut sports. The student athletes will be the losers and a few will get their union benefits.