New York Post: Minnesota football rape case emblematic of campus witch-hunt culture

[stocker08]

The dominoes began falling when that young lady downed 5-6 shots and went out the door begging for trouble.

Worth noting that at least four hours had passed between these shots that she mentioned.....and the timing of the events. Even a small girl with little drinking experience wouldn't have been that drunk at this point.

 

[50PoundHead]

Worth noting that at least four hours had passed between these shots that she mentioned.....and the timing of the events. Even a small girl with little drinking experience wouldn't have been that drunk at this point.

You have no idea if this is the case. If she were an inexperienced drinker, she would have probably been puking her guts out after that much liquor. If she would have drunk 5-6 shots in an hour or two, she probably wouldn't have been able to leave her apartment.

 

[PMWinSTP]

You have no idea if this is the case. If she were an inexperienced drinker, she would have probably been puking her guts out after that much liquor. If she would have drunk 5-6 shots in an hour or two, she probably wouldn't have been able to leave her apartment.

These kind of prove his point. Throwing up in that short of time would mean less liquor in her system...and the not leaving the apartment comment speaks for itself.

 

[50PoundHead]

These kind of prove his point. Throwing up in that short of time would mean less liquor in her system...and the not leaving the apartment comment speaks for itself.

If she was throwing up, she probably would have stayed home. And we don't know how her body metabolized the alcohol. She was still likely impaired to some extent. To the extent that it would invalidate consent? Who the heck knows?

 

[Ewert86PC]

The University needs to revoke the charter of this EOAA committee. It needs to establish a Title IX review process that is not rife with misandry and unchecked authority.

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[Pompous Elitist]

The police investigators said she was not slurring her speech or unable to keep her balance or body control and thus was not close to what is commonly considered incapacitation.

She is what, 22 or 23 yrs old? She's a self-admitted binge drinker and I'm going to guess she had a higher alcohol tolerance at that point in her college career than your average 17 or 18 year old. And, it obviously matters if there were food in her stomach, etc affecting the rate of absorption. Body size matters.

Bottom line is she wasn't incapacitated or unable to make choices. That doesn't mean a crime didn't occur, but it's a bad angle to pursue based on the facts.

 

[PMWinSTP]

If she was throwing up, she probably would have stayed home. And we don't know how her body metabolized the alcohol. She was still likely impaired to some extent. To the extent that it would invalidate consent? Who the heck knows?

If she was throwing up, it was because the concentrated amount of alcohol in her stomach irritated its liner. That's how it happens...so her body would not have metabolized any of that alcohol.

 

[die hard gopher]

She is also 22 and an upperclassmen so it's unlikely she is an unexperienced drinker although did admit to not having drank for a few months. Most charts that I found say a 140 pound female 4 hours after having 5-6 drinks would have a BAC between 0.096-0.128. After 5 hours it is 0.08-0.112.

http://www.moderation.org/bac/bac-women.html

 

[PMWinSTP]

The University needs to revoke the charter of this EOAA committee. It needs to establish a Title IX review process that is not rife with misandry and unchecked authority.

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They could do a few simple interim steps without changing how the EOAA operates. First allow actual due process to take place. Second, have at least one outside member on the appeal panel. Third, require the appeal panel to be unanimous in upholding any decision.

 

[50PoundHead]

She is also 22 and an upperclassmen so it's unlikely she is an unexperienced drinker although did admit to not having drank for a few months. Most charts that I found say a 140 pound female 4 hours after having 5-6 drinks would have a BAC between 0.096-0.128. After 5 hours it is 0.08-0.112.

http://www.moderation.org/bac/bac-women.html

So still impaired if she got behind the wheel of a car. Do we know what she weighed? Do we know the proof of the shots? Do we know if she ate anything? I'm not trying to say she was falling down drunk, but none of us know if she was impaired or by how much if she was. This is all spit-balling.

 

[Ewert86PC]

They could do a few simple interim steps without changing how the EOAA operates. First allow actual due process to take place. Second, have at least one outside member on the appeal panel. Third, require the appeal panel to be unanimous in upholding any decision.

I am inclined to avoid half steps and acquiescence to misandry. It is clear to me that the authority the University gave Kim Hewitt allowed her to mold a committee that had no moral qualms with indicting people by accusation and misrepresenting the true nature of their questioning parties involved.

How the EOAA operates under Kim Hewitt is an unwieldy part of the problem, thus the committee needs to be dissolved, dechartered and their fiduciary responsibilities stripped from them. A new committee needs to be formed with a less subjective bias.

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[PMWinSTP]

So still impaired if she got behind the wheel of a car. Do we know what she weighed? Do we know the proof of the shots? Do we know if she ate anything? I'm not trying to say she was falling down drunk, but none of us know if she was impaired or by how much if she was. This is all spit-balling.

So you are saying she got more drunk after the videos? Or are you questioning law enforcement's conclusion?

 

[PMWinSTP]

I am inclined to avoid half steps and acquiescence to misandry. It is clear to me that the authority the University gave Kim Hewitt allowed her to mold a committee that had no moral qualms with indicting people by accusation and misrepresenting the true nature of their questioning parties involved.

How the EOAA operates under Kim Hewitt is an unwieldy part of the problem, thus the committee needs to be dissolved, dechartered and their fiduciary responsibilities stripped from them. A new committee needs to be formed with a less subjective bias.

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It's not a committee, it's an office that most schools designate as their coordinators to be in compliance with Title IX.

What I outlined would be a simple and easy way to ensure fair and equal treatment of accuser and accused throughout the process..

 

[50PoundHead]

So you are saying she got more drunk after the videos? Or are you questioning law enforcement's conclusion?

I'm not questioning anything other than the impression that everyone here (including me) seems to know how the alcohol affected her. None of us--including law enforcement--knows. If the stats cited earlier are an accurate indication, she still would have registered a .08 after four hours and would have been classified as impaired if she were behind the wheel of a car. But nobody knows.

 

[Ewert86PC]

It's not a committee, it's an office that most schools designate as their coordinators to be in compliance with Title IX.

What I outlined would be a simple and easy way to ensure fair and equal treatment of accuser and accused throughout the process..

But it does not root out the misandry. The Women's Studies program at the University has, for the last thirty-five plus years, embraced misandry as a former of feminism. Their curriculum vitae was injected with the misandry of Andrea Dworkin when she worked with Catherine McKinnon on anti-pornography legal issues in the 1980s.

For those of you not in the know, Andrea Dworkin is a writer who in the 1980s put forth the notion that all sex between a man and a woman, aka heterosexual intercourse, is domination by the man and forced submission of the woman. Her writings led to other feminist writers, such as Cathy Adams, to synthesize it down further to "all heterosexual intercourse is rape."

This anti-hetersexual intercourse bias in the Women's Studies department has festered and found a new bully pulpit in the office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action. This is evident by their uncooperative anti-establishment government stance in this man hunt investigation. The EOAA must be abolished as it currently stands.

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[PMWinSTP]

But it does not root out the misandry. The Women's Studies program at the University has, for the last thirty-five plus years, embraced misandry as a former of feminism. Their curriculum vitae was injected with the misandry of Andrea Dworkin when she worked with Catherine McKinnon on anti-pornography legal issues in the 1980s.

For those of you not in the know, Andrea Dworkin is a writer who in the 1980s put forth the notion that all sex between a man and a woman, aka heterosexual intercourse, is domination by the man and forced submission of the woman. Her writings led to other feminist writers, such as Cathy Adams, to synthesize it down further to "all heterosexual intercourse is rape."

This anti-hetersexual intercourse bias in the Women's Studies department has festered and found a new bully pulpit in the office of Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action. This is evident by their uncooperative anti-establishment government stance in this man hunt investigation. The EOAA must be abolished as it currently stands.

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Works pretty well at Stanford.

So you think the U can just abolish the EOAA?

 

[Ewert86PC]

Works pretty well at Stanford.

So you think the U can just abolish the EOAA?

Does it work well at Stanford or does it just create more repressed resentment and Tools for the radical Men's Movement out in California?

The University can choose to clean out the membership of the current office, which is in effect abolishing it in its current state. They can instigate office composition requirements that include two members representing men's athletics, two members representing women's athletics and a number of non-University affiliated members.



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[PMWinSTP]

Does it work well at Stanford or does it just create more repressed resentment and Tools for the radical Men's Movement out in California?

The University can choose to clean out the membership of the current office, which is in effect abolishing it in its current state. They can instigate office composition requirements that include two members representing men's athletics, two members representing women's athletics and a number of non-University affiliated members.



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People at Stanford complain that its not working because the appeal panels aren't upholding the school's decisions So what I said...it works pretty well at Stanford.

I don't even know how to respond to the second part...

 

[Ewert86PC]

People at Stanford complain that its not working because the appeal panels aren't upholding the school's decisions So what I said...it works pretty well at Stanford.

I don't even know how to respond to the second part...

Why? If there is a fundamental misunderstanding of the office, then that shows a fundamental flaw in the nature of it's creation and implementation. It also shows a possible misunderstanding by the people it adjudicates.

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[Great Plains Gopher]

This is going on all over the country and is a national issue, as Claeys properly said. It is an issue of due process and lives can be ruined if due process is not observed. It would be a travesty if Claeys is fired because he took a stand with the players for due process.

 

[Genious]

With the stakes so high - expulsion, destroyed reputations - coupled with the fact that there's no subpoena power to get evidence, no penalty of perjury, I'm not sure a university is capable of carrying out such an investigation with the consistent level of competence that all Americans should demand. Say what you want about the American criminal justice system, it's not perfect, but at least if you get accused of something you've got a fighting chance and in the vast majority of cases you're not going to be found guilty unless you actually committed a crime. There's a jury of your peers, discovery, 5th Amendment, the beyond a reasonable doubt standard and the right to cross examine your accuser, among other things. Yes, in a university setting you can't go to prison so your rights may be fairly curtailed a bit. But the consequences are still life altering, we not talking about a $500 fine here like in traffic court. To do away with most major protections of the criminal justice system is too much and, taken over a large number of cases, is sure to result in many, many, false "convictions". This country needs to demand more of this system.

 

[Genious]

People at Stanford complain that its not working because the appeal panels aren't upholding the school's decisions So what I said...it works pretty well at Stanford.

I don't even know how to respond to the second part...

Why would you consider a process that frequently results in false convictions at the EOAA level to be working pretty well? Presumably they are overturned often on procedural grounds as is the nature of an appeal panel. A body that frequently denies people of procedural safeguards is a massive threat to the people under its oversight.

 

[LakerFan]

Claeys does not need to be fired.

Agree

The recruiting process needs to be reformed.

Agree

Players also need to be better informed about the how to protect the reputation of themselves and the U.

Agree

Group sex culture needs to end.

You had me then you lost me.

You don't have any more right to demand this than you do to demand that homosexual activity needs to end, interracial sexual activity needs to end or any other legal activity consenting adults get up to. Too many people want to make this an argument that polygamist relationships are inherently wrong/evil/illegal and sexual assault by default.

You can argue that this wasn't a case of consensual sex. You can argue that she wasn't capable of consenting due to being intoxicated. Those are rationale arguments with evidence that supports and refutes those points available in the EOAA report and what has been reported of the police report.

 

[cjbfbp]

But (this is a serious question) is there any group sex scenario involving multiple male students and one female student that you would find acceptable, no matter how consensual at the time?

Yes, that is a serious question and a pretty good one. As a young man, I knew a couple of young women who participated in 2 on 1s and talked about it as being fun. As a middle aged man, I knew a couple of middle aged women who said they had never done that but had fantasized about it. So, the answer is that such an act can be very acceptable to all parties but the conditions must be right and the males need to behave in a non-threatening way and not cross the boundaries into coercion. I would also suggest that numbers also matter. A four or five on one likely crosses the line from playful dominance and submission into unwanted temporary sexual slavery.

I think another poster above put it well when he suggested that better procedures for recruiting and counseling and control of players' behavior need to be instituted. You can't rely on young men with high testosterone to think always with their brains instead of, well, you know, when opportunities present themselves. You also can't expect a head coach who is an expert in football, but not in behavioral issues and their consequences, to administer this type of thing. There should be some independent office (sort of like the internal affairs department you see in police shows) that has primary responsibility for this sort of counseling and policing.