New York Post: Minnesota football rape case emblematic of campus witch-hunt culture

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UpnorthGo4 said:
Everyone should read it so they don't continue to show themselves to be morons by commenting on on matters they have made very little effort to understand.
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Too Rich to let pass by.


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Pompous Elitist said:
It seemed like she simply wanted to put this behind her but the complaint was filed and facilitated by her mother and now she's become exploited as a pawn in the EOAAs game. Her name is out there and the situation has become 1000x worse. No criminal charges. Nobody wins and everyone loses including some relatively innocent players.
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Which is it: innocent or relatively innocent? Apparently, "relatively innocent" students shouldn't be held accountable for violating the Student Code of Conduct. Or maybe you meant to say "relatively innocent" football players shouldn't be held accountable.
 

I completely agree. And BTW, I have 2 questions re. the EOAA, (1) does their investigating body have a person of color on it, and (2) why are we not investigating who leaked the report to KSTP? I thought we were concerned about student privacy. How do we change the Board of Regents, and in turn, Koeler, who apparently blindly stands behind our vigilant EOAA witch hunters. Joe McCarthy has nothing on them.
 

UpNorth I don't know how innocent anyone is in this, a position I've held from the beginning. You on the other hand...
 

Spoofin said:
Too Rich to let pass by.


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Yeah, when it's clear we've all read it and pulled out all the accuser's inconsistencies and the investigator's obvious bias and injection of opinion as fact he comes back to "if you've read the report".

The police realize she is a horrible witness and would not hold up under cross-examination, but Upnorth and his ilk take her self-admitted and recorded faulty and fractured testimony as gospel.
 


Austin_Erik said:
I completely agree. And BTW, I have 2 questions re. the EOAA, (1) does their investigating body have a person of color on it, and (2) why are we not investigating who leaked the report to KSTP? I thought we were concerned about student privacy. How do we change the Board of Regents, and in turn, Koeler, who apparently blindly stands behind our vigilant EOAA witch hunters. Joe McCarthy has nothing on them.
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Thanks for agreeing with me. In answer to your questions, (1) it probably doesn't matter if the the EOAA has a person of color on it because there is very little doubt that EOAA people love people of color. (2) the U might very well be investigating who leaked the report and that maybe the subject of future disciplinary action at the U.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
Thanks for agreeing with me. In answer to your questions, (1) it probably doesn't matter if the the EOAA has a person of color on it because there is very little doubt that EOAA people love people of color. (2) the U might very well be investigating who leaked the report and that maybe the subject of future disciplinary action at the U.
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Ahhh, hanging your hat on conjecture and supposition.

A great legal mind in its metamorphosis.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
UpNorth I don't know how innocent anyone is in this, a position I've held from the beginning. You on the other hand...
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... Me on the other hand, I have the EOAA report and the Student Code of Conduct almost memorized by this time. Many posters have completely ignored the EOAA report in favor of a much less comprehensive police report which they haven't read either. And the don't have a clue what is in the Student Code of Conduct and what the disciplinary process is.

With almost nothing to base their opinions on other than what they read in GopherHole, far too many posters are absolutely convinced the alleged victim is lying and the U is engaging in a witch hunt and violating the accused players due process rights.

I have read both the EOAA report and police report multiple times and I know the Student Code of Conduct backwards and forwards, Base on this I believe the weight of the evidence seems to be that the players engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct the investigation and lie about where they were that night, and what they saw, heard, and did in the apartment.

You think the alleged victim is lying, and I think the accused players are lying. Among the differences between us are: (1) I want the players to have hearings and due process, and you don't want hearings or any process at all; and (2) I am willing to abide by the results of the hearings however they come out, and you will never accept any result that says the alleged victim was telling the truth and the players were lying or violated any part the the Student Code of Conduct.
 

kellyleeks said:
They did fail to mention the fact that a 17 year old recruit was brought into this situation. The Title IX standards are absurd, but these players aren't angels either.
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Nowhere does the article state the players were without blame. Read the article. All it says is that labeling them as rapists without full process is wrong
 



Pompous Elitist said:
Yeah, when it's clear we've all read it and pulled out all the accuser's inconsistencies and the investigator's obvious bias and injection of opinion as fact he comes back to "if you've read the report".

The police realize she is a horrible witness and would not hold up under cross-examination, but Upnorth and his ilk take her self-admitted and recorded faulty and fractured testimony as gospel.
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I think even UpNorth would admit that he is not burdened by either intelligence or a moral sense of fairness. In his case a very difficult situation becomes much easier to dissect.
 

At this point in time, are the players suspended from team but still active students (attending classes through the end of Fall term) pending the hearing, or were they punished based on the report and before any hearing? Why does every media story lump all of the 10 together as being party to a sexual assault, when some of them are being punished only for lying to the "investigators?"
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
Here we go again. We have another poster commenting on the EOAA report without actually reading it. It has been more common than not in GopherHole since the report was leaked to KSTP (probably by one of the players). Why educate yourself about the report when you can have anonymous internet posters and right wing newspaper columnists do it for you?

There was no witch hunt and there was no guilt by association. Each of the players has been accused of violating multiple sections of the U's Student Code of Conduct. Much of the evidence the accusations are based on comes directly from the players themselves and not the alleged victim.

- Four players are accused of Sexual Assault, Stalking, and Relationship Violence.

- Eight players are accused of Sexual Harassment.

- Three players are accused of lying to investigators.

- Nine players are accused to violating Sections 6, 8, and 19 of the Student Code of Conduct.

Every accused player will have a Student Code of Conduct hearing in which they will be represented by an attorney who will be able to challenge every accusation in the EOAA report, call witnesses on their client's behalf, and cross-examine adverse witnesses. Each of the players will be able to appeal any adverse ruling against them during the hearing, or sue the U in federal courtif they don't like the result of their appeal.

Every student at the U has to go through the exact same disciplinary process if they are accused of violating the Student Code of Conduct. Why are the posters in this thread demanding that the players be exempt from this process? I think it is because either they haven't read the EOAA report, or they don't understand the investigation/hearing/appeal process at the U.

Here is the link to the report. http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U of M EOAA redacted5.pdf

Everyone should read it so they don't continue to show themselves to be morons by commenting on on matters they have made very little effort to understand.
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Webster's definition of a moron: "Usually offensive : 1. a person affected with mild mental retardation, 2.a very stupid person. Thank you for giving definition to my and others that disagree with you - intellectual capacity. Thank you also for encouraging me to find the heart to read the 80 page report. I have now done so and nothing has changed in my obviously limited mental capacity of comprehending what occurred. It was incredibly deplorable and I, coach Claeys, the entire football team in their boycott actions, etc. do not condone or support such behavior in anyway shape or form. Nor do we support the lack of due process afforded those involved. The police read the report also and found nothing in there that would stand up to prosecution. All involved have had their names publicly displayed and positioned them to be found guilty, have been suspended and have in several cases encouraged the U to expel them. This entire situation is completely horrible, but that does not give the U and those representing Title IX the right to defame these people without due process then to release that information publicly. That is exactly what they have appeared to have done. This has been witch-hunt. We do need to stand up for rights of women. We do need to stand for due-process too.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
... Me on the other hand, I have the EOAA report and the Student Code of Conduct almost memorized by this time. Many posters have completely ignored the EOAA report in favor of a much less comprehensive police report which they haven't read either. And the don't have a clue what is in the Student Code of Conduct and what the disciplinary process is.

With almost nothing to base their opinions on other than what they read in GopherHole, far too many posters are absolutely convinced the alleged victim is lying and the U is engaging in a witch hunt and violating the accused players due process rights.

I have read both the EOAA report and police report multiple times and I know the Student Code of Conduct backwards and forwards, Base on this I believe the weight of the evidence seems to be that the players engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct the investigation and lie about where they were that night, and what they saw, heard, and did in the apartment.

You think the alleged victim is lying, and I think the accused players are lying. Among the differences between us are: (1) I want the players to have hearings and due process, and you don't want hearings or any process at all; and (2) I am willing to abide by the results of the hearings however they come out, and you will never accept any result that says the alleged victim was telling the truth and the players were lying or violated any part the the Student Code of Conduct.
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You're a liar, fraud, and massive hypocrite. You judged the players guilty from day one and twist anything you can to fit your narrative.

Disgusting post by you.
 



How on earth is UpN not banned? It is getting a bit ridiculous.


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goldenboy said:
At this point in time, are the players suspended from team but still active students (attending classes through the end of Fall term) pending the hearing, or were they punished based on the report and before any hearing? Why does every media story lump all of the 10 together as being party to a sexual assault, when some of them are being punished only for lying to the "investigators?"
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Not to mention that the players testimony to the EOAA was voluntary and they (the additional 5 players) were told they were only being interviewed as witnesses......just to receive suspensions as well.

Yes....this was a scorched earth with hunt that hurts everyone involved......including the girl involved.
 

UpnorthGo4 said:
... Me on the other hand, I have the EOAA report and the Student Code of Conduct almost memorized by this time. Many posters have completely ignored the EOAA report in favor of a much less comprehensive police report which they haven't read either. And the don't have a clue what is in the Student Code of Conduct and what the disciplinary process is.

With almost nothing to base their opinions on other than what they read in GopherHole, far too many posters are absolutely convinced the alleged victim is lying and the U is engaging in a witch hunt and violating the accused players due process rights.

I have read both the EOAA report and police report multiple times and I know the Student Code of Conduct backwards and forwards, Base on this I believe the weight of the evidence seems to be that the players engaged in a conspiracy to obstruct the investigation and lie about where they were that night, and what they saw, heard, and did in the apartment.

You think the alleged victim is lying, and I think the accused players are lying. Among the differences between us are: (1) I want the players to have hearings and due process, and you don't want hearings or any process at all; and (2) I am willing to abide by the results of the hearings however they come out, and you will never accept any result that says the alleged victim was telling the truth and the players were lying or violated any part the the Student Code of Conduct.
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You made up your mind prior to reading the report. You are only capable of seeing this one way, and are not willing to acknowledge that there may be some players being misrepresented by how the U administration released suspensions and media has reported. Must be an easy life to live when everything is black and white, with no need to think critically about an issue.


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Ozzy&Ray said:
You made up your mind prior to reading the report. You are only capable of seeing this one way, and are not willing to acknowledge that there may be some players being misrepresented by how the U administration released suspensions and media has reported. Must be an easy life to live when everything is black and white, with no need to think critically about an issue.


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Upnorth has shown he is clearly lacking critical thinking skills and has a weak temperament. Very sad.
 

Best quote of the article.

"Campus adjudication puts victims’ privacy at risk and

subjects their trauma to an amateur probe."



[emoji41] [emoji57]
 



UpnorthGo4 said:
Here we go again. We have another poster commenting on the EOAA report without actually reading it. It has been more common than not in GopherHole since the report was leaked to KSTP (probably by one of the players). Why educate yourself about the report when you can have anonymous internet posters and right wing newspaper columnists do it for you?

There was no witch hunt and there was no guilt by association. Each of the players has been accused of violating multiple sections of the U's Student Code of Conduct. Much of the evidence the accusations are based on comes directly from the players themselves and not the alleged victim.

- Four players are accused of Sexual Assault, Stalking, and Relationship Violence.

- Eight players are accused of Sexual Harassment.

- Three players are accused of lying to investigators.

- Nine players are accused to violating Sections 6, 8, and 19 of the Student Code of Conduct.

Every accused player will have a Student Code of Conduct hearing in which they will be represented by an attorney who will be able to challenge every accusation in the EOAA report, call witnesses on their client's behalf, and cross-examine adverse witnesses. Each of the players will be able to appeal any adverse ruling against them during the hearing, or sue the U in federal courtif they don't like the result of their appeal.

Every student at the U has to go through the exact same disciplinary process if they are accused of violating the Student Code of Conduct. Why are the posters in this thread demanding that the players be exempt from this process? I think it is because either they haven't read the EOAA report, or they don't understand the investigation/hearing/appeal process at the U.

Here is the link to the report. http://kstp.com/kstpImages/repository/cs/files/U of M EOAA redacted5.pdf

Everyone should read it so they don't continue to show themselves to be morons by commenting on on matters they have made very little effort to understand.
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I like how you conveniently use "accused" to enable yourself to argue the false narrative that due process is still in place. They were found in violation and punished without the ability to rebut anything. The leaked cover letter states it as clear as possible, but you somehow missed that..

Everyone on this board should familiarize themselves with the FIRE website. Very good and informative. I've pointed several posters to it in other threads. The more this onion gets peeled, the more concerned I get...constitutional rights getting trampled.

Best couple paragraphs in the article...sums it up pretty clearly.

"The University of Minnesota’s suspended athletes make for an unlikely, and perhaps unsympathetic cause to rally behind, perhaps — but it’s not just their futures at risk. FIRE has tracked more than 130 cases where students say they’ve been wrongly disciplined under Title IX, many of them in circumstances far milder than the Gophers’ degenerate night of copulation.

Moreover, men aren’t the only victims of the Obama administration’s Title IX requirements. All survivors of sexual assault deserve to have their case examined by trained investigators and prosecuted under the full force of the law. Campus adjudication puts victims’ privacy at risk and subjects their trauma to an amateur probe.

Coach Claeys’ stand against this injudicious Title IX system took courage."
 

Panthadad2 said:
Yes it was an "ass clown" act in the opinion of many. But (this is a serious question) is there any group sex scenario involving multiple male students and one female student that you would find acceptable, no matter how consensual at the time? What if the act at the time was completely consensual and the female changed her opinion later? What then? I think many on this board, in the larger community, and probably in the EOAA office as well, probably can't see any scenario that's acceptable involving that kind of group sex. If that's the case, then either make group sex against school policy outright or defer the issues to legal authorities.

For what it's worth, I read the report. I have a teenage daughter and the beginning of the report (the female's recount of the incident) was especially hard to read. However, her story seemed to be spun in a way to absolve her of any accountability and there were some major seemingly illogical statements and actions (or lack thereof...like leaving...my wife pointed that out). I tell my daughter to make good decisions because she's accountable for her actions (there will never truly be equal opportunity without equal accountability) and used this messy situation as a teaching moment ...hoping she never gets involved in this kind of nasty mess.
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The dominoes began falling when that young lady downed 5-6 shots and went out the door begging for trouble. I too have a college-aged daughter and it is definitely a story of caution. Trying to teach my son to be aware and be above this type of stuff. Young people make mistakes. Unfortunate. If not the EOAA, then some other intra-campus board would need to review and make recommendations. Don't get all the animosity but maybe it really is a feminist conspiracy as many here seem to believe.
 

Dean S said:
Claeys does not need to be fired. The recruiting process needs to be reformed. Players also need to be better informed about the how to protect the reputation of themselves and the U. Group sex culture needs to end.
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Why do you care who people have sex with? (If it's consensual). That's really weird. Are there any other consensual sexual acts you would like outlawed?

As far as the rest of your post, I actually agree. I think the entire NCAA should reform the rules on how and what recruits get to do.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Why do you care who people have sex with? (If it's consensual). That's really weird. Are there any other consensual sexual acts you would like outlawed?

As far as the rest of your post, I actually agree. I think the entire NCAA should reform the rules on how and what recruits get to do.
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Well, at least he now thinks it was group sex...

I wonder what other kinds of sex he would want on the Code of Conduct list...

Multiple partners in any combination or situation?

Gay/Lesbian sex?

Bondage..S&M?
 

I think UpNorth is missing this key point.

There can be a witch hunt AND bad things could have happened.

Here is an example: The documentary Making a Murderer.

I know some people disagree with me, but there is a ton of evidence to suggest that Steven Avery was guilty. In my heart of hearts, I believe Steven Avery murdered the victim.

That said, the process used to convict him was flawed and unfair. It seems extremely likely that evidence was planted. There seemed to be a sham investigation. One of the attorneys for a co-defendant should be disbarred for essentially working with the prosecution. The police violated the Constitution with their interrogation. The entire process was BUTCHERED. That county needs to clean house and make some major changes.

I don't know where that leaves Steven Avery. I think he's guilty and I don't think he should see the light of day. But the process NEEDS to be changed. I can say that with 100% certainty. The county and the police department were absolutely out of line.

That doesn't mean I am making absolute statements on Avery's guilt. It surely doesn't make me pro-murder. The horrible process was bad for the entire county, anyone who has been convicted in that county prior to this case and the victim, herself!

To bring it full circle with our situation. I have never spoken with any certainty on whether or not what happened was consensual. Never. I have no idea. I wish the U would have done a real investigation. In my opinion, this office is incapable of being impartial. Maybe she was telling the truth. Everything has just gotten blurry because of these offices. Now, you can disagree with me about those offices. But please see that we aren't saying "she's lying". We are saying "how do we know, the investigation was butchered". We aren't pretending to know what happened.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I think UpNorth is missing this key point.

There can be a witch hunt AND bad things could have happened.

Here is an example: The documentary Making a Murderer.

I know some people disagree with me, but there is a ton of evidence to suggest that Steven Avery was guilty. In my heart of hearts, I believe Steven Avery murdered the victim.

That said, the process used to convict him was flawed and unfair. It seems extremely likely that evidence was planted. There seemed to be a sham investigation. One of the attorneys for a co-defendant should be disbarred for essentially working with the prosecution. The police violated the Constitution with their interrogation. The entire process was BUTCHERED. That county needs to clean house and make some major changes.

I don't know where that leaves Steven Avery. I think he's guilty and I don't think he should see the light of day. But the process NEEDS to be changed. I can say that with 100% certainty. The county and the police department were absolutely out of line.

That doesn't mean I am making absolute statements on Avery's guilt. It surely doesn't make me pro-murder. The horrible process was bad for the entire county, anyone who has been convicted in that county prior to this case and the victim, herself!

To bring it full circle with our situation. I have never spoken with any certainty on whether or not what happened was consensual. Never. I have no idea. I wish the U would have done a real investigation. In my opinion, this office is incapable of being impartial. Maybe she was telling the truth. Everything has just gotten blurry because of these offices. Now, you can disagree with me about those offices. But please see that we aren't saying "she's lying". We are saying "how do we know, the investigation was butchered". We aren't pretending to know what happened.
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Don't forget that the flawed and unfair process happened twice to him. There's no doubt in my mind they went hunting for him the second time, guilty or not...
 

PMWinSTP said:
Don't forget that the flawed and unfair process happened twice to him. There's no doubt in my mind they went hunting for him the second time, guilty or not...
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Yeah, absolutely. I don't even mean to get into a debate about Steven Avery (I know you didn't either), but the process was unfair and flawed, whether he did it or not.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
Yeah, absolutely. I don't even mean to get into a debate about Steven Avery (I know you didn't either), but the process was unfair and flawed, whether he did it or not.
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That DA was a smarmy creep.
 

Block M said:
...Don't get all the animosity but maybe it really is a feminist conspiracy as many here seem to believe.
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Not a feminist conspiracy, just a painful shift in society's changing beliefs and norms with oodles of contradictions...and some of them unfair. As usual, new unproven federal policy with good intentions has negative unintended consequences. A Hoover Institute article on this from a few years ago discusses this (warning...it's long): http://www.hoover.org/research/contradiction-rules-feminism
 

Block M said:
The dominoes began falling when that young lady downed 5-6 shots and went out the door begging for trouble. I too have a college-aged daughter and it is definitely a story of caution. Trying to teach my son to be aware and be above this type of stuff. Young people make mistakes. Unfortunate. If not the EOAA, then some other intra-campus board would need to review and make recommendations. Don't get all the animosity but maybe it really is a feminist conspiracy as many here seem to believe.
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If you are trolling, and I assume you are, don't. This is bulletin board material.
 

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