NE, IL, WI, IA, IN about 60 first and second year guys; same as Minnesota

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swingman said:
Minnesota listing 60 first and second year guys on roster...33 frosh, 25 redshirt frosh, and 2 true sophomores on roster.

Nebraska listing 68, Illini 62, Iowa 60, Wisconsin 60, Indiana 59. Maryland 54, Purdue 53.
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Which team will be relying on those guys the most???


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

Face The Facts said:
Well, I'm a predict the worst, hope for the best type of guy.
When I've made my predictions, you'll find a couple things.

1. I stated I haven't seen the team play or the QB's so I have no idea so I'm not expecting much.
2. I've posted the current ESPN odds for each game in another post which shows them favored in only 5 of the 12 games.
3. I've acknowledged that two are should be wins, and two are should be losses, and the rest are pretty much toss up.

Earlier today I think I posted something to the effect it could be 4-8 to as good as 10-2. So I've been a bit inconsistent, but I don't know the right answer.
Click to expand...

You are like a weather man, 20% chance of rain this day, 40% this day, and 10% this day.
 

bottlebass said:
You are like a weather man, 20% chance of rain this day, 40% this day, and 10% this day.
Click to expand...

I don't get paid as well as them however.

I have to attribute my frequent changes to which direction the wind is blowing and how much hot air there is.
 


Face The Facts said:
What surprises me is the number of people who bring these things up to argue about it... .... on a Gophers' themed message board.

If this was just an NCAA message board, and we were arguing after a game between Minnesota and Timbuktu University where we said "Wow, we played well being so young!" I'd expect maybe a fan from Timbuktu University to be like "Hey, you aren't that young. Your coach says it, but we're almost as young as you!"

But we have this whole legion of Gopher fans who are just looking for reasons to be upset or find disagreement with the coach of our football team trying to paint him as a liar / sales person or somewhere in between.

I think by now we all know what PJ Fleck is and isn't.

It gets a little old arguing points about whether we have 9 seniors or 12, or whether we have 60 freshman or 58. In the end, it matters to noone.




It's not like there are a ton of people listening to Sid on Sunday morning going...

"Geez, I'm not sure I like this Gopher Football Program",
who then change their opinion when Fleck says

"We're a young team. This year isn't about wins."

Who then respond
"You know, I might give this PJ guy a chance!"
or
"This guys is a snake oil salesman! I'm pulling my support and not watching a game. I can't trust him."

At this point, you either like PJ or not, and you've had ample time to buy season tickets or cancel your tickets. Or take whatever other actions you want to take.

This ongoing attempt to argue these points, no matter how you want to interpret the facts does not matter.

You'll be just as effective changing the world posting your political opinions on facebook.
Click to expand...

First, not on Facebook so no luck there.

I really don't mind hearing both sides. I think there's room for Fleckites and skeptics. There are a lot of unknowns and it's sometimes fun to debate them (or read other people debating them). Let's face it, aside from quibbling over roster numbers, etc., most of what is debated on here is pure speculation.
 


We need actual games to happen soon so we can start talking about that stuff instead of the stuff we've been discussing since last December.
 

Well, don't just stand there. Someone list our scholarship seniors, how many will play, and what impact they will have.

Then list the same thing with all those other teams.

Thanks!
 

In the current defensive two deep, 20 of 22 older players? Plus both punters older guys?

Defensive ends: fourth year returning starter DeLattiboudere, third year returning starter Carter Coughlin, third year Devers, (Otomewo, maybe Mafe)

Defensive tackles: fifth year returning starter Gary Moore, fifth year Bama transfer OJ Smith, fourth year juco transfer Royal Silver, fourth year Sam Renner (Teague)

Linebackers: fourth year Cashman, fourth year Huff, third year returning starter Coughlin (in 3-4 package), third year returning starter Barber, third year returning starter Martin, third year Schoenfelder (maybe Rush)

Defensive backs: fourth year returning starter Shenault, fourth year returning starter Huff, fourth year Florida transfer Williamson, third year returning starter Kiondre, third year returning starter Winfield, third year Swenson, third year Durr (second year Harris, true frosh Smith, Smith, Sapp, Aune, Howden pushing)

Punter fourth year Herbers, grad transfer Melvin
 




7 of 11 starters on offense older guys? Plus kickers both older.

Annexstad, Morgan

Fifth year Smith, Ibrahim

Third year Johnson, true frosh Bateman, rs frosh Bell, rs frosh Douglas, third year Howard, fourth year Morse

Third year guys Kieft, Green, fourth year guys Witham, Beebe (Paulson)

Fifth year returning starter Greene, third year returning starter Olson, fifth year returning starter Weyler, rs frosh Andries, third year returning starter Schlueter. Fourth year Oseland and Dovich, rs frosh Schmitz, true frosh Faalele and Dunlap.

Kicker fifth year returning starter Carpenter, Third year Mack
 

swingman said:
7 of 11 starters on offense older guys? Plus kickers both older.

Annexstad, Morgan

Fifth year Smith, Ibrahim

Third year Johnson, true frosh Bateman, rs frosh Bell, rs frosh Douglas, third year Howard, fourth year Morse

Third year guys Kieft, Green, fourth year guys Witham, Beebe (Paulson)

Fifth year returning starter Greene, third year returning starter Olson, fifth year returning starter Weyler, rs frosh Andries, third year returning starter Schlueter. Fourth year Oseland and Dovich, rs frosh Schmitz, true frosh Faalele and Dunlap.

Kicker fifth year returning starter Carpenter, Third year Mack
Click to expand...

Our offense depth chart will likely be something like this:

QB: FR Morgan, FR Annexstad
RB: SR Smith, FR Ibrahim
WR: JR Tyler Johnson, SO Philip Howard
WR: FR Rashod Bateman, JR Matt Morse
WR: FR Demetrius Douglas, FR Chris Autman Bell
TE: SO Kieft, FR Paulson
LT: SR Green, FR Sassack
LG: SO Olson, JR Dovich
OC: SR Weyler, FR Schmitz
RG: FR Andries, JR Oseland
RT: SO Schlueter, FR Faalele

15 of 22 in the two deeps would be FR or SO. 7 of 11 starters would be FR or SO. Keep on cherry picking to fit your narrative. You are elite at it. :rolleyes:
 


The only place we are young is at QB and that pair is the best talent we have had in years. Better yet they have nothing to unlearn. No habits to break. All their time has been in Flecks system. If some of the young depth pushes out the seasoned starters it means we have made some real improvements. Just stay healthy guys. This team is going to be pretty good.
 



diehard said:
The only place we are young is at QB and that pair is the best talent we have had in years. Better yet they have nothing to unlearn. No habits to break. All their time has been in Flecks system. If some of the young depth pushes out the seasoned starters it means we have made some real improvements. Just stay healthy guys. This team is going to be pretty good.
Click to expand...
Only QBs are young? Have you looked at depth charts at RB WR and TE? Other than Rodney & TJ, we have Fr and RFr at all the skill positions


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swingman said:
7 of 11 starters on offense older guys? Plus kickers both older.

Annexstad, Morgan

Fifth year Smith, Ibrahim

Third year Johnson, true frosh Bateman, rs frosh Bell, rs frosh Douglas, third year Howard, fourth year Morse

Third year guys Kieft, Green, fourth year guys Witham, Beebe (Paulson)

Fifth year returning starter Greene, third year returning starter Olson, fifth year returning starter Weyler, rs frosh Andries, third year returning starter Schlueter. Fourth year Oseland and Dovich, rs frosh Schmitz, true frosh Faalele and Dunlap.

Kicker fifth year returning starter Carpenter, Third year Mack
Click to expand...

I'm glad I learned that Morgan and Annexstad are older guys.
 

Pete smith said:
Hey if you can’t support PJ and the Gophers go somewhere else. No one appreciates your negativity. You and Pat R must have partied together.
Click to expand...

You need me to support the Gophers and PJ? I'll support the Gophers team without reservation, always have, but my feelings about PJ are a separate matter.
 

So what I'm gleaning from all these stats and arguments postings is that we're a young team not because our roster is actually younger than most other teams, but because coach Fleck is expected to bench his upperclassmen and start underclassmen instead.

That isn't a circumstance that works to our disadvantage; it's the coach's preference. That makes it not a valid (pre)excuse, and an honest coach should stop talking about youth.

BTW WorkingMyTailOff, don't accuse anyone of being a sockpuppet just because you disagree with them. I've never met Reusse, but I've been to Fulda MN so maybe in your mind that's almost like being the same person.
 

everybody knows my name said:
So what I'm gleaning from all these stats and arguments postings is that we're a young team not because our roster is actually younger than most other teams, but because coach Fleck is expected to bench his upperclassmen and start underclassmen instead.

That isn't a circumstance that works to our disadvantage; it's the coach's preference. That makes it not a valid (pre)excuse, and an honest coach should stop talking about youth.

BTW WorkingMyTailOff, don't accuse anyone of being a sockpuppet just because you disagree with them. I've never met Reusse, but I've been to Fulda MN so maybe in your mind that's almost like being the same person.
Click to expand...

I think you are hitting the main point. PJ will be playing younger player in place of some of the older ones. I would assume that PJ thinks they are better players or at least gives him a better chance of winning. Yes, he could choose to play those older players, but why? There are also some major holes in the upperclassmen at some positions.
 

everybody knows my name said:
So what I'm gleaning from all these stats and arguments postings is that we're a young team not because our roster is actually younger than most other teams, but because coach Fleck is expected to bench his upperclassmen and start underclassmen instead.

That isn't a circumstance that works to our disadvantage; it's the coach's preference. That makes it not a valid (pre)excuse, and an honest coach should stop talking about youth.

BTW WorkingMyTailOff, don't accuse anyone of being a sockpuppet just because you disagree with them. I've never met Reusse, but I've been to Fulda MN so maybe in your mind that's almost like being the same person.
Click to expand...

What upperclassmen is he benching in favor of underclassmen?
 

alchemy2u said:
I think you are hitting the main point. PJ will be playing younger player in place of some of the older ones. I would assume that PJ thinks they are better players or at least gives him a better chance of winning. Yes, he could choose to play those older players, but why? There are also some major holes in the upperclassmen at some positions.
Click to expand...

We're on the same page until you say "he could choose to play those older players, but why?" I'm not saying he should play the older players. I'm saying he should stop claiming youth as an excuse when playing younger players instead of older ones is HIS decision. Does that make sense?
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
Our offense depth chart will likely be something like this:

QB: FR Morgan, FR Annexstad
RB: SR Smith, FR Ibrahim
WR: JR Tyler Johnson, SO Philip Howard
WR: FR Rashod Bateman, JR Matt Morse
WR: FR Demetrius Douglas, FR Chris Autman Bell
TE: SO Kieft, FR Paulson
LT: SR Green, FR Sassack
LG: SO Olson, JR Dovich
OC: SR Weyler, FR Schmitz
RG: FR Andries, JR Oseland
RT: SO Schlueter, FR Faalele

15 of 22 in the two deeps would be FR or SO. 7 of 11 starters would be FR or SO. Keep on cherry picking to fit your narrative. You are elite at it. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Yeah, it gets tiresome having to read about how a guy who has been in the program for three years and yet to crack the two deep is automatically better than a freshman purely due to age. Just a ridiculous viewpoint, and wish it would stop.
 

For reference, here are our Juniors and Seniors.

Seniors

1 Rodney Smith RB 5-11 210 R-Sr. Jonesboro, Ga. / Mundy's Mill
3 Jerry Gibson DL 6-3 260 R-Sr. Theodore, Ala. / Theodore
19 Gary Moore DL 6-4 300 R-Sr. Mobile, Ala. / Murphy
25 Payton Jordahl LS 6-2 230 R-Sr. Perham, Minn. / Perham
38 Emmit Carpenter K 6-0 200 R-Sr. Green Bay, Wis. / Ashwaubenon
62 Jared Weyler OL 6-4 300 R-Sr. Dayton, Ohio / Centerville
73 Donnell Greene OL 6-7 320 R-Sr. Marietta, Ga. / Kell Coffeyville CC
99 O.J. Smith DL 6-2 320 R-Sr. Bossier City, La. / Airline Alabama
2 Jacob Huff DB 5-11 210 Sr. Bolingbrook, Ill. / Bolingbrook
4 Shannon Brooks RB 6-0 215 Sr. Austell, Ga. / Pickens
20 Julian Huff LB 6-0 225 Sr. Bolingbrook, Ill. / Bolingbrook
34 Antonio Shenault DB 5-11 190 Sr. Roselle, Ill. / Lake Park
36 Blake Cashman LB 6-2 235 Sr. Eden Prairie, Minn. / Eden Prairie

Juniors

6 Chris Williamson DB 6-0 200 R-Jr. Atlanta, Ga. / Gainesville Florida
27 Paul Gossage WR 6-3 185 R-Jr. Mokena, Ill. / Lincoln-Way East Eastern Illinois
28 Jonathan Femi-Cole RB 6-0 225 R-Jr. Vaughan, Ontario, Canada / St. Andrew's College
44 Colton Beebe TE 6-3 265 R-Jr. Kansas City, Kan. / Piper
46 Winston DeLattiboudere DL 6-3 250 R-Jr. Baltimore, Md. / Howard
46 Alex Melvin P 6-4 205 R-Jr. Burnet, Texas / Burnet SMU
47 Jacob Herbers P 6-2 215 R-Jr. Battle Creek, Mich. / Lakeview
58 Quinn Oseland OL 6-6 305 R-Jr. Springfield, Ill. / Sacred Heart Griffin
61 Bronson Dovich OL 6-5 300 R-Jr. Chaska, Minn. / Chaska
85 Bryce Witham TE 6-4 255 R-Jr. Grand Rapids, Mich. / West Catholic
89 Matt Morse WR 6-1 195 R-Jr. Apple Valley, Minn. / Apple Valley
90 Sam Renner DL 6-4 270 R-Jr. Maple Grove, Minn. / Maple Grove Senior
97 Royal Silver DL 6-3 300 R-Jr. Cedar Rapids, Iowa / Washington Iowa Western CC
6 Tyler Johnson WR 6-2 200 Jr. Minneapolis, Minn. / North
12 Tai'yon Devers DL 6-4 240 Jr. Pompano Beach, Fla. / Blanche Ely
16 Coney Durr DB 5-10 190 Jr. Baton Rouge, La. / Dutchtown
21 Kamal Martin LB 6-3 235 Jr. Burnsville, Minn. / Burnsville
24 Bishop McDonald DB 6-0 190 Jr. Oakdale, Minn. / North St. Paul Minnesota Duluth
41 Thomas Barber LB 6-1 235 Jr. Plymouth, Minn. / Robbinsdale Armstrong
45 Carter Coughlin LB 6-4 245 Jr. Eden Prairie, Minn. / Eden Prairie
79 Jason Dickson OL 6-6 315 Jr. Corona, Calif. / Vallejo Diablo Valley CC
 


Face The Facts said:
For reference, here are our Juniors and Seniors.

Seniors

1 Rodney Smith RB 5-11 210 R-Sr. Jonesboro, Ga. / Mundy's Mill
3 Jerry Gibson DL 6-3 260 R-Sr. Theodore, Ala. / Theodore
19 Gary Moore DL 6-4 300 R-Sr. Mobile, Ala. / Murphy
25 Payton Jordahl LS 6-2 230 R-Sr. Perham, Minn. / Perham
38 Emmit Carpenter K 6-0 200 R-Sr. Green Bay, Wis. / Ashwaubenon
62 Jared Weyler OL 6-4 300 R-Sr. Dayton, Ohio / Centerville
73 Donnell Greene OL 6-7 320 R-Sr. Marietta, Ga. / Kell Coffeyville CC
99 O.J. Smith DL 6-2 320 R-Sr. Bossier City, La. / Airline Alabama
2 Jacob Huff DB 5-11 210 Sr. Bolingbrook, Ill. / Bolingbrook
4 Shannon Brooks RB 6-0 215 Sr. Austell, Ga. / Pickens
20 Julian Huff LB 6-0 225 Sr. Bolingbrook, Ill. / Bolingbrook
34 Antonio Shenault DB 5-11 190 Sr. Roselle, Ill. / Lake Park
36 Blake Cashman LB 6-2 235 Sr. Eden Prairie, Minn. / Eden Prairie

Juniors

6 Chris Williamson DB 6-0 200 R-Jr. Atlanta, Ga. / Gainesville Florida
27 Paul Gossage WR 6-3 185 R-Jr. Mokena, Ill. / Lincoln-Way East Eastern Illinois
28 Jonathan Femi-Cole RB 6-0 225 R-Jr. Vaughan, Ontario, Canada / St. Andrew's College
44 Colton Beebe TE 6-3 265 R-Jr. Kansas City, Kan. / Piper
46 Winston DeLattiboudere DL 6-3 250 R-Jr. Baltimore, Md. / Howard
46 Alex Melvin P 6-4 205 R-Jr. Burnet, Texas / Burnet SMU
47 Jacob Herbers P 6-2 215 R-Jr. Battle Creek, Mich. / Lakeview
58 Quinn Oseland OL 6-6 305 R-Jr. Springfield, Ill. / Sacred Heart Griffin
61 Bronson Dovich OL 6-5 300 R-Jr. Chaska, Minn. / Chaska
85 Bryce Witham TE 6-4 255 R-Jr. Grand Rapids, Mich. / West Catholic
89 Matt Morse WR 6-1 195 R-Jr. Apple Valley, Minn. / Apple Valley
90 Sam Renner DL 6-4 270 R-Jr. Maple Grove, Minn. / Maple Grove Senior
97 Royal Silver DL 6-3 300 R-Jr. Cedar Rapids, Iowa / Washington Iowa Western CC
6 Tyler Johnson WR 6-2 200 Jr. Minneapolis, Minn. / North
12 Tai'yon Devers DL 6-4 240 Jr. Pompano Beach, Fla. / Blanche Ely
16 Coney Durr DB 5-10 190 Jr. Baton Rouge, La. / Dutchtown
21 Kamal Martin LB 6-3 235 Jr. Burnsville, Minn. / Burnsville
24 Bishop McDonald DB 6-0 190 Jr. Oakdale, Minn. / North St. Paul Minnesota Duluth
41 Thomas Barber LB 6-1 235 Jr. Plymouth, Minn. / Robbinsdale Armstrong
45 Carter Coughlin LB 6-4 245 Jr. Eden Prairie, Minn. / Eden Prairie
79 Jason Dickson OL 6-6 315 Jr. Corona, Calif. / Vallejo Diablo Valley CC
Click to expand...

If you just look at offensive and defensive plays (not special teams plays), most of the guys who are seniors are going to be starters or significant contributors this season. That junior class is where it starts breaking down and you see several guys who are going to be backups and likely won't get to play much barring injury or poor performance by the man ahead of them.

Seniors - take out Carpenter and Jordahl, and you're only looking at maybe Gibson as a guy that might not see the field on defense that much? (though I could well be wrong about that) That's 10 out of 11 guys who should be significant contributors at least .... one caveat being Brooks of course, but hopefully he will be healthy and a significant contributor for the last 4 games on offense.

Juniors - take out Melvin, Herbers, Dickson (I think will likely RS this year), and McDonald (transfer sitting out this year), that gives you 17 players ... but I think only 8-9 will be significant O/D contributors??
 

Once again, both sides can at least claim to be partially right or accurate in this debate.

The Gophers do have a number of upperclassmen who will play - but they also have a number of younger players who will play. Like most teams.

Ultimately, the choice of who starts, who is on the 2-deeps, who is on special teams, and who sits on the bench is up to the coach.

I can see Fleck going with a lot of younger players for several reasons:
1. he believes the younger players are better
2. he wants to give the younger players experience as he builds for the future
3. he feels more comfortable with players that he recruited.

it's not unusual after a coaching change to see the new staff favor its own players - as opposed to the players that were inherited from the previous staff. In some cases, it may be because the inherited players were recruited to play a different system, while the new players were recruited to play the new system.

Every team and every coaching staff has some seniors and juniors who just don't see a lot of playing time. Every coaching staff has a few wiffs on recruits who just don't pan out, for whatever reason. Recruiting is looking at a 16 or 17-year-old kid, and projecting what they will be like at age 21 or 22. it's not a perfect science, and there will be mistakes.
 

Gophers_4life said:
If you just look at offensive and defensive plays (not special teams plays), most of the guys who are seniors are going to be starters or significant contributors this season. That junior class is where it starts breaking down and you see several guys who are going to be backups and likely won't get to play much barring injury or poor performance by the man ahead of them.

Seniors - take out Carpenter and Jordahl, and you're only looking at maybe Gibson as a guy that might not see the field on defense that much? (though I could well be wrong about that) That's 10 out of 11 guys who should be significant contributors at least .... one caveat being Brooks of course, but hopefully he will be healthy and a significant contributor for the last 4 games on offense.

Juniors - take out Melvin, Herbers, Dickson (I think will likely RS this year), and McDonald (transfer sitting out this year), that gives you 17 players ... but I think only 8-9 will be significant O/D contributors??
Click to expand...

So about 20 of our 50 or so on the 2-deep will be upperclassmen and maybe someday preferably you flip flop that and 30 of the 50 are upper classmen. I think the glaring hole is in the lack of red-shirt sophomores (2), due to having to put most of that class on the field as true freshman in 2015 which was due in part to poor recruiting balance and in part to losing 10 guys for different parts of the season to the allegations.
 

LakerFan said:
So about 20 of our 50 or so on the 2-deep will be upperclassmen and maybe someday preferably you flip flop that and 30 of the 50 are upper classmen. I think the glaring hole is in the lack of red-shirt sophomores (2), due to having to put most of that class on the field as true freshman in 2015 which was due in part to poor recruiting balance and in part to losing 10 guys for different parts of the season to the allegations.
Click to expand...

???
 




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