Maybe I should have said illustrious history, are you happy. When talking about the history of football in the Big 8, there are two teams mentioned and that is Oklahoma and Nebraska because those two teams played each other the last week of the conference season and that game was often for the conference and many times to determine who would get to play for the national championship. Missouri was rarely even a consideration when it came to football in the days of the Big 8. If the Big Ten was to take Missouri then TCU could join the Big 12.
My surprise pick for the 12th Big Ten school
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Maybe I should have said illustrious history, are you happy. When talking about the history of football in the Big 8, there are two teams mentioned and that is Oklahoma and Nebraska because those two teams played each other the last week of the conference season and that game was often for the conference and many times to determine who would get to play for the national championship. Missouri was rarely even a consideration when it came to football in the days of the Big 8. If the Big Ten was to take Missouri then TCU could join the Big 12.
Zeppelin Gopher
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Please let it be the Huskers!
6 hour road trip to watch us play in Lincoln every other year?
Yes please!!!
Sea of Red baby!
NateDawgUM
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So then why we would want them?
My problem with Missouri is that they have no long standing football tradition. Their basketball program is good, but not great. Their non-revenue sports are pedestrian. They're not terribly great academically. The only positive is that they tap into a high population state, but a state that isn't die hard about college sports.
Zeppelin Gopher
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Nebraska would add the Omaha and Lincoln markets, not to mention the fact that they have an enormous national fan base.
I don't think that Mizzou is the preferred choice but may be one of the better options out of those that are realistically available, along with Pitt. If the conference wants a 12th team they may have to settle for their second or third choice unfortunately. I think that Notre Dame or Nebraska would be great choices but I just don't see either one of those schools joining the Big Ten.
Ron Johnson Super Fan
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Notre Dame's television deal with NBC runs through 2015. I don't see them joining the Big Ten as long as that chicken keeps laying its golden eggs.
I wasn't claiming to have the correct answer, but rather that yours was most definitely not it. Notre Dame, Pitt, Missouri, Syracuse, etc all have a much better chance. BC doesn't match, and it is far more likely than UConn.
At any rate, your divisional split is laughable (splitting the biggest rivalries!), UConn doesn't fit geographically, nor is the market ideal (though it's not terrible...), I like the concept of the additional hockey school (but this will not be a factor in them joining, so it's only brownie points towards me and Bronko), couldn't find the academic listing to compare them to Big Ten standards...
... all in all, I give it an D+. The creativity was there, but the research was obviously not done (and we really didn't need a new thread for your one comment that could have easily been appended to the original thread like everyone else - hence the parody threads). I'm just saying.
RodentRampage
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I wonder if all this expansion talk might be to send a message to Notre Dame that the Big Ten might not be a fallback option if things go sour. If this new coach winds up being Charlie Weis 2.0, the NBC TV deal might not be as generous when it comes up for renewal. Perhaps the Big Ten is sending a message that the offer to join the Big Ten isn't an offer in perpetuity, that they will continue looking at other expansion opportunities?
Nice observation.
JoeDirt
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RUTGERS!
-Big university (50,000+ students)
-New York/New Jersey market
-Great athletic recruiting area (2nd best in the East behind Pennsylvania)
-Easy access with airports
-Great academics
-Solid football program
-Great womens basketball
your thoughts?
-Big university (50,000+ students)
-New York/New Jersey market
-Great athletic recruiting area (2nd best in the East behind Pennsylvania)
-Easy access with airports
-Great academics
-Solid football program
-Great womens basketball
your thoughts?
Nebraska doesn't have any more of a national fan base then anyone else. Certainly nothing like Notre Dame does. Or Florida or USC for that matter. Nebraska has a strong presence in the midwest (Iowa, SD, even MN) which is why it may seem that way to you. But I can honestly say that I have never met one Nebraska fan on the East Coast in 5 years.
Nebraska has an incredibly loyal fan base, without a doubt. It takes some doing to turn Notre Dame stadium half red. Or pack the Metrodome with 50,000 +. They travel as well as anyone in America. But don't confuse loyalty with having some sort of huge national following. Is thier national following better then Missouri? Yes. But not by so much as to offset Missouri's other advantages IMO.
Interesting, but I think if that were the case they would have waited a year or two before starting the expansion push. When they come back a year from now and announce they decided to try to add a team, ND will still be a couple of years from having an idea where they'll be with NBC when the time comes to re-up.
Also, even if they remain middling, they'll be able to find a network somewhere who's willing to pay a goodish chunk to televise their games.
great idea...I'm surprised no one's mentioned this before.
skoalvikings
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Of all of the schools that have been mentioned, Rutgers is the most similar to the non-NW Big Ten schools. Large campus, huge student body, land-grant, med school, law school, good research University, etc. I just don't think the Big Ten will want to go further east than Happy Valley.
Adding Mizzou gains access to the following markets:
St. Louis -market 21
Kansas City-market 32
Springfield, MO-market 74
Cape Girardeau, MO, Paducah KY-market 78
Columbia-market 137
Joplin, MO-market 147
Hannibal, MO-market 171
Kirksville, MO-market 200
St. Joseph, MO-market 201
On the other hand for Nebraska:
Omaha is market 76
Lincoln is market 105
Scottsbluff-market 198
North Platte-market 209
From the aspect of media markets added, which is the #1 criteria IMO, it's not even close. And as for Nebraska's 'national following' as stated before, I think that is over-rated.
GoAUpher
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I think one of the most important criteria that matters for judging the national reach of a fan base is will it get BTN access to areas it doesn't currently have good access to via cable providers. I'd say yes for ND (though I have nothing to prove this) and no for pretty much any other team we're considering.
That's why the regional markets accessed become important for non-ND schools...how many eyeballs a school can gain the B10 will probably play a big part of the process.
That's why the regional markets accessed become important for non-ND schools...how many eyeballs a school can gain the B10 will probably play a big part of the process.
The idea isn't necessarily about interest in the said media markets. It is about clearance of the Big Ten Network. Remember, in the primary 8-state region of the Big Ten, the BTN gets anywhere between $.50-$1 per month per subscriber!
So, you add Rutgers and hope to start getting clearance in the 20-million person New York/New Jersey area and the $$$$ starts adding up fast. Getting clearance will be a hurdle, because as you said, the interest isn't all that high.
Not so with Missouri. You add the Tigers and instantly STL and KC pick up the BTN and put it on their basic expanded/standard plans. You do that, and you're talking about the possibility of adding $2-4 million PER MONTH of revenue just off of the subscriber fees. And, I might add that the Springfield/Branson area is still one of the fastest growing markets in the nation, too, and they would add BTN on basic, as well. The Jeff City/Columbia market is decent, as well. You're talking about maybe $5 million per month of revenue or $60 million extra per year. The expense of adding Mizzou isn't that high, as they have everything in place.
I never gave Missouri a second thought in all of this because I figured they would never walk away from the Big 12. They are a charter Big 8 member and have a long-standing rivalry with Kansas. But, apparently they are unhappy with the shift of power within the league to the Texas schools and the switch of the conference's headquarters out of KC and into Dallas. If that is the case, then Mizzou is a legit player in the expansion discussion, no question about it. I think the Big Ten opened this up for discussion right now because of Mizzou. The Big Ten - like me - probably figured Missouri would never bolt from the Big 12. There apparently is some slight momentum now.
Mizzou has a very nice campus, a 70,000-seat football stadium, a brand new basketball arena, and the academics are a fit. Mizzou also does have some outstanding fringe sports. Baseball would be an instant Big Ten contender and a probable yearly favorite to win the league. Wrestling has been good. Volleyball has been well above average.
I am going to have to disagree with you here, Nebraska has over 60 recognized alumni chapters outside the state of Nebraska while Minnesota for comparison has 32 chapters outside the state. Nebraska definitely has more chapters on the west coast versus the east coast but there are some there as well, in fact a high school classmate of mine was the president of the chapter in NYC for sometime.
GoAUpher
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The only thing that matters is whether these alumni clubs translate into national TV appeal. I'm not saying they don't, not saying they do (I'm not even sure what would be the best way to gauge the "national appeal" of any team besides Notre Dame). What is for certain is that other teams definitely outperform Nebraska in terms of the regional markets they put in play.
Notre Dame is a different animal because we know that Notre Dame's national base does translate into big national ratings...its why they get their own TV deal.
Bronko Nagurski Gopher
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i would not be so sure of this. i actually see a big ten hockey conference happening sooner rather than later.
From a Nebraska standpoint, they do bring some cache. Outside of Notre Dame, they have the biggest name brand. Say what you want about the Huskers, but from a purely football standpoint (eliminate TV markets, etc.), Nebby brings something powerful to the conference. And, they are a good fit academically. Football wise - just look at the potential - these matchups will create headlines moreso than Rutgers or Mizzou:
Nebraska vs. Ohio State
Nebraska vs. Michigan
Nebraska vs. Penn State
Nebraska vs. Minnesota
Nebraska vs. Iowa
Nebraska vs. Wisconsin
Those six matchups would create national interest. TV networks would be all over them. No question about it. In fact, those first three would probably immediately become three of the top ten matchups in the Big Ten year-in and year-out.
I cannot see Nebraska stepping out of the Big 12 with rivalries with Kansas, Missouri, K-State, Oklahoma, etc. But, I thought the same thing about Mizzou and apparently they are putting out feelers.
Nebraska vs. Ohio State
Nebraska vs. Michigan
Nebraska vs. Penn State
Nebraska vs. Minnesota
Nebraska vs. Iowa
Nebraska vs. Wisconsin
Those six matchups would create national interest. TV networks would be all over them. No question about it. In fact, those first three would probably immediately become three of the top ten matchups in the Big Ten year-in and year-out.
I cannot see Nebraska stepping out of the Big 12 with rivalries with Kansas, Missouri, K-State, Oklahoma, etc. But, I thought the same thing about Mizzou and apparently they are putting out feelers.
I agree with you. Nebraska would be a good fit but I don't see them leaving the Big 12. They still have enough influence (fan support, money) in the Big 12 to have a voice and the conference would fight hard to keep them there because without them there is no North division. I don't think that the Big 12 would fight that hard to keep Mizzou when they can bring in TCU or Houston.
GoAUpher
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I'd agree with this. If Nebraska really wants more of the pie and didn't care about being evil they could certainly try to play a Big 10 offer into a better Big 12 deal. Pretty much everyone in both conferences might end up hating them though.
I also agree that the Big 12 would be comfortable with replacing (from a football/money standpoint anyway) Mizzou with TCU. Same/better quality football team with an athletic department that would view their smaller share of the TV money pie as an upgrade.I'd agree with this. If Nebraska really wants more of the pie and didn't care about being evil they could certainly try to play a Big 10 offer into a better Big 12 deal. Pretty much everyone in both conferences might end up hating them though.
I think everyone is jumping the gun on TCU. They would fall into about 4th or 5th on the pecking order. The Big 12 would make a hard push to lure Arkansas back into the Texas consortium (remember they used to be SWC members and had a huge rivalry with Texas). Arkansas would likely listen, too. They aren't entirely happy with the SEC setup and Arkansas borders Texas and Oklahoma. But, if Arkansas said no, I think they'd then try to raid the MWC, but it would be for Utah, and not TCU. Arkansas and Utah expand the league's reach and TV. TCU doesn't bring anything new and their football team becomes just ordinary playing in the Big 12 anyway. In fact, if Utah said no, then I think the Big 12 might look at BYU or New Mexico before TCU. Again, for purposes of expanding exposure.
Weddings and Steak Frys
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Think of the possibilities... Maybe howeda can take a break from his pimping Mizzou and work up a quick analysis of the Fargo, Bismarck and Grand Forks media markets. Since he included Jeff City too maybe we could look at Drayton, McVille (pron Mac-Vil), New Town, Hettinger and Bowbells markets as well. Just imagine--Fargo brings in West Fargo, Bismarck also brings Mandan, Grand Forks brings in Park River, McVille brings along Michigan (not that Michigan silly, the real Michigan, Michigan, ND!), New Town brings in Stanley (the town and the guy) we get the Hettinger market, we also get McIntosh,SD and Bowbells opens up Kenmare! Lakesbison must be wetting himself thinking of the calls flowing into Fargo...
I think in the end this exercise will amount to absolutely nothing. Delany has been lukewarm on the prospect and as the SI column by Mandel summed up, the prospective new team would need to generate around $22.5 million per year to the league to make it a break-even proposition. I know some folks think this thing is all about sports, but never underestimate the role of academia in this. The Presidents of the schools in the CIC won't take adding another school lightly. Given the academic end, if the league expands it will most likely be only for Notre Dame or Pittsburgh. Mizzou would need to make some significant commitments to the academic/endowment/program side of the ledger to be considered. That said, they have some deep pockets down there, see the Kroenke family. Still, Mizzou doesn't have the midwest feel that makes the Big Ten the Big Ten. I say this gets discussed and dies a natural death for 5 more years when the Notre Dame/NBC contract expires.
GoAUpher
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All good points on TCU. And I agree, the B12 would want the Hogs first. I discounted them because I figured they'd never leave the SEC.
DeltaHog: If you read this would you care to comment?
In the end I think the point remains the same...the Big 12 would likely be comfortable replacing a Mizzou with a Utah, TCU, UNLV, New Mexico (assuming Arkansas is out) because they'd look at everything about the deal as a move up while Mizzou seems unhappy with its spot in the pecking order.
All good points on TCU. And I agree, the B12 would want the Hogs first. I discounted them because I figured they'd never leave the SEC.
DeltaHog: If you read this would you care to comment?
In the end I think the point remains the same...the Big 12 would likely be comfortable replacing a Mizzou with a Utah, TCU, UNLV, New Mexico (assuming Arkansas is out) because they'd look at everything about the deal as a move up while Mizzou seems unhappy with its spot in the pecking order.
If not TCU then I see the Big 12 going for Houston before the other schools listed, again like you assuming that Arkansas will never leave the SEC.
I suppose we could quibble over that all night, but I don't see TCU or Houston as being that high on their list should Mizzou bolt. Neither TCU or Houston brings enough. They are urban, mostly commuter schools with small fan bases that are Page 8 news in their own cities. Neither draws particularly well in football and certainly not up to Big 12 standards. Neither plays in a great venue. And, the Big 12 already owns the state of Texas so adding either TCU or Houston (or even old SWC member SMU) offers nothing in terms of additional exposure, TV money or national interest. The University of Texas and Texas A&M are already the front page stories in Houston relating to college football. Not the U of Houston. Plus, with North teams already pissed about the state of TX's power in the league's structure, I think the league would be smart to NOT add yet another team from the Lone Star State. In fact, if you add Houston or TCU, you have to break off one of the Oklahoma schools and put them into the North Division. Not likely and not popular.
Utah would allow the Big 12 to expand to a new region, give them the 31st largest TV market in the country, play in a Big 12 caliber stadium (Olympic opening ceremonies held there) with Big 12 attendance standards (avg almost 50,000), allow them to put them in the Big 12 North (which they'd need if Mizzou left), the other Utes sports (MBB, etc.) offer much more than TCU or Houston, and the Utes would give the conference a little attention in the mountain region with Colorado. Actually, BYU also brings that (and maybe more), as well. BYU actually has a better name brand and averages 64,000 fans per game in one of the best settings in all of college football. Other sports are good, too. My guess is that Utah and BYU could hold out to wait for an eventual Pac Ten invite when that league chooses to go to 12 teams and play a title game. Those two may not want to separate as it is literally a holy war rivalry.
Also, one darkhorse candidate for the Big 12 could be Memphis.