Mo Walker and Elliott Eliason are painful to watch

[StCroix]

Bottom line on Mo and Elliot: They are what they are. Neither are a fit for the type of game Pitino wants to manage. BUT, combined, I think we can get through the season with these two if they can limit deficiencies on their weak ends (Mo defense/Elliot Offense). I am encouraged by the TYPE of players Coach is recruiting. Not a slap on Mo or Elliot...but Coach would have never recruited them.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

As someone noted above, What other Options does Pitino have? After Mo and EE, all of the other big men on the roster are simply not ready to play major minutes for a D1 program. Pitino has no choice but to keep rotating them, and hope they can improve. I think a lot of it will come down to matchups. There will be teams where EE can be more productive, and there will be teams where it makes more sense to give Mo more minutes.

 

[Pdiddy]

I feel bad about the things I've said about mo and EE. I can tell they are great guys who work hard and stay out of trouble. I do get extremely frustrated watching them at times. After reading several posts on here it has struck me that these two are just not going to get any better and we have to accept them for what they are. I'm sure I will still get upset when I watch easy passes slip right through their fingers. We have to get through the year with what they can give us. Maybe it can be enough to slip into the Ncaa tourney but it looks like another nit semifinal run to Madison square garden that I will have to get excited about. That's ok though. We're used to it by now.

 

[go_gophers]

I feel bad about the things I've said about mo and EE. I can tell they are great guys who work hard and stay out of trouble. I do get extremely frustrated watching them at times. After reading several posts on here it has struck me that these two are just not going to get any better and we have to accept them for what they are. I'm sure I will still get upset when I watch easy passes slip right through their fingers. We have to get through the year with what they can give us. Maybe it can be enough to slip into the Ncaa tourney but it looks like another nit semifinal run to Madison square garden that I will have to get excited about. That's ok though. We're used to it by now.

Good God, man! Take a deep breath. It's not even December yet. Far too early for this level of doom and gloom. At least wait until mid January before you open a vein!

 

[cncmin]

I would like to see him start again. He clearly has more confidence issues than Mo and it was nice having Mo as an offensive spark off the bench. Plus he's a much better defender and defensive rebounder. Just needs to shut the hell up.

yep. EE loses his confidence quickly. He also busts his ass off ALL of the time. He's as worthy as starter as Mo is. Let EE go in first and wear the other team down a bit with his energy, then put Mo in after the game has slowed a tick or two and the offensive opportunities are a bit more open. Mo is much slower, and the early energy of the start of the game seems to overwhelm him.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

If everyone was who they were in 2 week increments there would have been a lot of bad decisions over the course of history.

 

[bga1]

yep. EE loses his confidence quickly. He also busts his ass off ALL of the time. He's as worthy as starter as Mo is. Let EE go in first and wear the other team down a bit with his energy, then put Mo in after the game has slowed a tick or two and the offensive opportunities are a bit more open. Mo is much slower, and the early energy of the start of the game seems to overwhelm him.

Mo starts because, ideally you want to get the ball inside early and not just start shooting jumpers right away. Show an inside threat and the outside stuff opens up.

 

[lakesgopher]

Mo starts because, ideally you want to get the ball inside early and not just start shooting jumpers right away. Show an inside threat and the outside stuff opens up.

Mo starts because he's a much better all around player than EE. Anyone that disagrees isn't watching

 

[bga1]

Mo starts because he's a much better all around player than EE. Anyone that disagrees isn't watching

Mostly agree. In an ideal world for me- Konate -over the course of the season improves enough to where he is stealing minutes from EE as the defensive center who will have more ability on the offensive side than EE.

 

[march madness]

EE is struggling with confidence right now. It's funny how someone has a handful of poor games and all of a sudden they aren't division 1 players, and the current coach wouldnt have recruited them. We all forget the run we had last year where EE was our only big in the preseason tourney. His stats are pretty close to last year when you consider the drop in minutes. Again if we are a defensive team first, you start the better defender as it seems he plays better starting. Mo plays the same starting or off the bench. As far as Morris vs Austin, Morris is a quicker athlete, much skinnier, and a poorer 3pt shooter right now. Add in juco adjustment and the leader Austin was and you see the drop off. I did not expect Morris to automatically replace all of what Austin brang to the team, i was hoping a suspended player would help. The other issue is Morris is really a SG and we have no other real SF on this team.

During the NIT run we were a better team than our individual parts, we will get there again.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

The idea that the only difference between this year and last year is the change in our 3 guard is laughable at best.

 

[lakesgopher]

EE is struggling with confidence right now. It's funny how someone has a handful of poor games and all of a sudden they aren't division 1 players, and the current coach wouldnt have recruited them. We all forget the run we had last year where EE was our only big in the preseason tourney. His stats are pretty close to last year when you consider the drop in minutes. Again if we are a defensive team first, you start the better defender as it seems he plays better starting. Mo plays the same starting or off the bench. As far as Morris vs Austin, Morris is a quicker athlete, much skinnier, and a poorer 3pt shooter right now. Add in juco adjustment and the leader Austin was and you see the drop off. I did not expect Morris to automatically replace all of what Austin brang to the team, i was hoping a suspended player would help. The other issue is Morris is really a SG and we have no other real SF on this team.

During the NIT run we were a better team than our individual parts, we will get there again.

To be fair, Pitino wouldn't have recruited EE, someone else would have though.

EE has been pretty bad since the Big Ten tourney last season and was really bad in the NIT. Hopefully both EE and Mo wake up soon and start putting it together, we need both of them to play at a high level

 

[Gopher Warrior]

Mo starts because he's a much better all around player than EE. Anyone that disagrees isn't watching

I'm watching and disagree. It's not to the level that people criminally underrated Austin Hollins, but EE's value is misunderstood and under-valued.

*Personally*, I often like the idea of setting the defensive tone early. If a team comes out and hits jumps shots to take an early lead, so be it... hope they fall in love with the idea of shooting 'em the rest of the night too. But, I want them to get frustrated early when trying to get to the rim. That's where Eliason's size helps a ton.

LOVE what Mo has been able to do over the years and he has great value too... just more on the offensive side. Still has big problems fouling... and frankly on offense suffers because of turnovers. Eliason won't ever be the usage guy Mo is, but that's fine to start the game off.. especially when I want Dre getting involved more early and often.... instead of possessions going to Walker.

Every opponent lineup grouping is different... but all in all, I'd be playing Eliason more often and I'd be starting him.

 

[60's Guy]

I had been thinking the same thing. Most of us fans expect improvement each year, but it's not always the case. Injuries, coaching changes and different teammates can keep that from happening, but we overlook other factors. One, is that is about as good as the player is going to get. Ya, they can work their butt off, but that's not going to make them quicker, give them better hands, make them more coordinated, etc. Two, they're seniors. Been here four years, and they're thinking about moving on. They might tell themselves they're going to give it everything, but it's hard, and they really don't.

Several years ago, when I was really starting to get pissed at Borton, I compared stats for her players from their junior to their senior year. A major rap on her was that players never improved. Roysland, McCoy, Fox, Loberg, Ellis-Milan, Buford, Voight were some of the players, but there were others. Good people--seemed to play hard--but they weren't better and some regressed. Proved what everyone knew. But then I was into it enough that I actually sat down and did this with the entire league. I took the 2 or 3 best players from every team and compared junior and senior stats. Damn near every women's basketball player either stayed the same and some regressed. The "study" was crude, but eye-opening. Women athletes generally seem to mature quicker and they don't have the pro opportunities, but I wonder what the trend is overall with the men's teams in the league. I know there are all sorts of factors, but I'm not too sure we'd find that many examples of Gophers who made a significant jump between their junior and senior years.

Not excusing the seniors for their play so far, and I do think they'll get it together. However, I'm preparing myself. Can't help it--been a Gopher fan too long.

It's true in high school basketball too. Most teams get better by adding a "new" player, whether it's a good freshman or a sophomore who was held back or a talented transfer. The returning players stay the same or get worse. Like you, generalizing what I've seen (charted). It takes a unique coach to have players improve each year. People expect it. They think they just should but research it and the overwhelming majority of coaches/teams follow the pattern of staying the same or regressing. Teams get better because of a newcomer...if they do....except the horse whisper kind of coaches. The secret is mental preparation, not physical. Everybody puts the hours in the gym in. What are their thoughts. It's all confidence.
And for whatever reason none of our seniors are playing with any.

 

[scher215]

I'm watching and disagree. It's not to the level that people criminally underrated Austin Hollins, but EE's value is misunderstood and under-valued. *Personally*, I often like the idea of setting the defensive tone early. If a team comes out and hits jumps shots to take an early lead, so be it... hope they fall in love with the idea of shooting 'em the rest of the night too. But, I want them to get frustrated early when trying to get to the rim. That's where Eliason's size helps a ton. LOVE what Mo has been able to do over the years and he has great value too... just more on the offensive side. Still has big problems fouling... and frankly on offense suffers because of turnovers. Eliason won't ever be the usage guy Mo is, but that's fine to start the game off.. especially when I want Dre getting involved more early and often.... instead of possessions going to Walker. Every opponent lineup grouping is different... but all in all, I'd be playing Eliason more often and I'd be starting him.

Agree with this. Especially starting King at the 4, Elliot is a huge help to offset his defensive struggles.

 

[lakesgopher]

I'm watching and disagree. It's not to the level that people criminally underrated Austin Hollins, but EE's value is misunderstood and under-valued. *Personally*, I often like the idea of setting the defensive tone early. If a team comes out and hits jumps shots to take an early lead, so be it... hope they fall in love with the idea of shooting 'em the rest of the night too. But, I want them to get frustrated early when trying to get to the rim. That's where Eliason's size helps a ton. LOVE what Mo has been able to do over the years and he has great value too... just more on the offensive side. Still has big problems fouling... and frankly on offense suffers because of turnovers. Eliason won't ever be the usage guy Mo is, but that's fine to start the game off.. especially when I want Dre getting involved more early and often.... instead of possessions going to Walker. Every opponent lineup grouping is different... but all in all, I'd be playing Eliason more often and I'd be starting him.

Ya I don't agree with you at all but to each his own

 

[march madness]

We lost Austin, we all hoped Morris could replace some of what he brought. We lost Malik Smith and Mav, i would take the freshmen Mason over these two any day. We lost Oto who i was hoping Martin could replace..jury is out there.
So to me it's not laughable. What is laughable is our seniors numbers.
Lil Dre ppg from 12 to 8, EE pts, reb, ft, and blocks are especially down. Dre turnovers up from 1.8 to 3.

So we traded some skilled players for inexperienced and athletic players. Guess what, steals and forced turnovers are up and fg% and especially ft% are down. That part is somewhat expected.

I don't see the Dre's and EE slumping the whole season, not all 3 at least. Mo is the same player as last year, now that i look at his numbers.

The idea that the only difference between this year and last year is the change in our 3 guard is laughable at best.

 

[cjbfbp]

To be fair, Pitino wouldn't have recruited EE, someone else would have though.

EE has been pretty bad since the Big Ten tourney last season and was really bad in the NIT. Hopefully both EE and Mo wake up soon and start putting it together, we need both of them to play at a high level

I disagree about the NIT. Elliot was outstanding against St. Mary's. They came back from a big deficit when they put him in the post.

He also wasn't bad against Georgia in the last game. To be sure, Elliot is erratic but he is usually better than Mo defensively.

 

[lakesgopher]

I disagree about the NIT. Elliot was outstanding against St. Mary's. They came back from a big deficit when they put him in the post. He also wasn't bad against Georgia in the last game. To be sure, Elliot is erratic but he is usually better than Mo defensively.

True, EE did play 27 min with 8 boards and 2 points... Walker played 13 min had 6 boards and 4 points

NIT stats

 

[lakesgopher]

I disagree about the NIT. Elliot was outstanding against St. Mary's. They came back from a big deficit when they put him in the post.

He also wasn't bad against Georgia in the last game. To be sure, Elliot is erratic but he is usually better than Mo defensively.

No he isnt but everyone is entitled to their own opinions

 

[cjbfbp]

No he isnt but everyone is entitled to their own opinions

Yes and yours is wrong. You must not watch defense.

 

[cjbfbp]

True, EE did play 27 min with 8 boards and 2 points... Walker played 13 min had 6 boards and 4 points

NIT stats

I was there and watched the game in person. Not everything is reflected in a box score unless you are primarily a fantasy basketball fan. But, since you believe so much in box scores, you might also notice the obvious fact that Elliot played twice as many minutes as Mo when Mo was the starter at that point in the season. Do you think that was just happenstance?

 

[bga1]

I was there and watched the game in person. Not everything is reflected in a box score unless you are primarily a fantasy basketball fan. But, since you believe so much in box scores, you might also notice the obvious fact that Elliot played twice as many minutes as Mo when Mo was the starter at that point in the season. Do you think that was just happenstance?

In that same game Maverick Ahanmisi got more minutes than Andre Hollins....so there is that.

 

[cjbfbp]

In that same game Maverick Ahanmisi got more minutes than Andre Hollins....so there is that.

That's because Andre stunk in that game and Ahanmisi played pretty well when he was brought in. There is a reason that Elliot and Maverick played more than the two starters they replaced. Their increased minutes were not accidental. Minnesota was down something like 0-10 and the subs righted the ship well before halftime.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

We lost Austin, we all hoped Morris could replace some of what he brought. We lost Malik Smith and Mav, i would take the freshmen Mason over these two any day. We lost Oto who i was hoping Martin could replace..jury is out there.
So to me it's not laughable. What is laughable is our seniors numbers.
Lil Dre ppg from 12 to 8, EE pts, reb, ft, and blocks are especially down. Dre turnovers up from 1.8 to 3.

So we traded some skilled players for inexperienced and athletic players. Guess what, steals and forced turnovers are up and fg% and especially ft% are down. That part is somewhat expected.

I don't see the Dre's and EE slumping the whole season, not all 3 at least. Mo is the same player as last year, now that i look at his numbers.

So, per your response.

The only thing that changed wasn't Austin Hollins graduating and being replaced by a less of a leader in Carlos Morris as at least one has stated, and many more have insinuated.

 

[Winasota Gopher]

In that same game Maverick Ahanmisi got more minutes than Andre Hollins....so there is that.

I do think that had more to do with their age than anything no? Wasn't that the last game at the barn?

Not to mention one could probably make a case that Mav played better than Andre did that day.

 

[bga1]

I do think that had more to do with their age than anything no? Wasn't that the last game at the barn?

Not to mention one could probably make a case that Mav played better than Andre did that day.

The point was simply that you cannot argue who is a better player based on who got more time in a certain game.

 

[bga1]

That's because Andre stunk in that game and Ahanmisi played pretty well when he was brought in. There is a reason that Elliot and Maverick played more than the two starters they replaced. Their increased minutes were not accidental. Minnesota was down something like 0-10 and the subs righted the ship well before halftime.

There are going to be games where Elliot is better. Overall Mo is a better player. Maybe that will change. I hope they both start playing better, considering that both are Gophers. For the future I really hope that some young player starts to surpass both of them by the end of the year.

 

[lakesgopher]

I was there and watched the game in person. Not everything is reflected in a box score unless you are primarily a fantasy basketball fan. But, since you believe so much in box scores, you might also notice the obvious fact that Elliot played twice as many minutes as Mo when Mo was the starter at that point in the season. Do you think that was just happenstance?

I don't care if you were there, I have been around the block for a long time and it's obvious who the better player is and that's why Mo took the starting job from EE at the end of the NIT run. I haven't seen anything out of EE that makes me think he should ever play over Mo. The box score doesn't say everything but it definitely says something.

 

[cjbfbp]

There are going to be games where Elliot is better. Overall Mo is a better player.

Not on defense. You could argue that the additional 6 points on average that Mo gets in a game is worth his poorer defense and greater turnovers but I don't see it that way. If Mo averaged 13 points and 8 rebounds a game, then I would say live with his poorer defense and play him 32 minutes a game (if he can stay on the floor as he's been even more foul prone than Elliot this year), but he doesn't, and probably won't, have those averages so I wouldn't say that.