MN HS Basketball will add shot clocks in 2023-24 season

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the MN State High School League executive Board met Thursday morning. by voice vote, the board approved a motion to use a :35 shot clock for Varsity Boys and Girls Basketball games, starting with the 2023-24 season.

A majority of coaches supported the move. Some AD's had expressed concerns - including the cost and logistics of purchasing and installing the equipment, and the need to find additional people to run the clocks during games.

reading between the lines, that is why they are waiting until the '23-24 season to implement the change - to give schools time to address those issues.

So no more "stall" games like the infamous Hopkins-Shakopee game in the State Tournament - a game, BTW, that ended on a half-court shot by Amir Coffey.
 






That may not be the end of it...there were many school administrators very adamant about this not happening due to cost.
Lots of schools don't draw any fans. Take away the coaching staff...you got ticket sellers, ticket takers. Person on duty responsible for being in charge of violence and stuff just happens etc...sometimes that's the AD but he can't be there 5/6 nights a week either with all the sports, plus all day too.
Custodians on site for basket, scoreboard, bleacher malfunctions....cleanup etc
Scoreboard operator, score keeper. Many have a doctor or nurse on hand. Now you are adding another worker to run the shot clock plus a backup for any of those.
Concessions usually volunteer fundraiser.
Not a problem at big schools who draw fans but there are a lot of A and AA teams who get less than 10, 20, 40 paid people to the game.
Girls can be less.
26 games boys, 26 games girls...some places 4 games a night. Two for sure..3 somewhat common. Split on home and away but still got $2500 very minimum for labor.
Been a hard core discussion for minimum 20 years.
 

60's Guy said:
That may not be the end of it...there were many school administrators very adamant about this not happening due to cost.
Lots of schools don't draw any fans. Take away the coaching staff...you got ticket sellers, ticket takers. Person on duty responsible for being in charge of violence and stuff just happens etc...sometimes that's the AD but he can't be there 5/6 nights a week either with all the sports, plus all day too.
Custodians on site for basket, scoreboard, bleacher malfunctions....cleanup etc
Scoreboard operator, score keeper. Many have a doctor or nurse on hand. Now you are adding another worker to run the shot clock plus a backup for any of those.
Concessions usually volunteer fundraiser.
Not a problem at big schools who draw fans but there are a lot of A and AA teams who get less than 10, 20, 40 paid people to the game.
Girls can be less.
26 games boys, 26 games girls...some places 4 games a night. Two for sure..3 somewhat common. Split on home and away but still got $2500 very minimum for labor.
Been a hard core discussion for minimum 20 years.
Click to expand...
i'm going to presume they'll say just have your scoreboard operator do it. not saying it's right, but assuming that's the counter point
 

Finally! this is great for the game!
 

60's Guy said:
That may not be the end of it...there were many school administrators very adamant about this not happening due to cost.
Lots of schools don't draw any fans. Take away the coaching staff...you got ticket sellers, ticket takers. Person on duty responsible for being in charge of violence and stuff just happens etc...sometimes that's the AD but he can't be there 5/6 nights a week either with all the sports, plus all day too.
Custodians on site for basket, scoreboard, bleacher malfunctions....cleanup etc
Scoreboard operator, score keeper. Many have a doctor or nurse on hand. Now you are adding another worker to run the shot clock plus a backup for any of those.
Concessions usually volunteer fundraiser.
Not a problem at big schools who draw fans but there are a lot of A and AA teams who get less than 10, 20, 40 paid people to the game.
Girls can be less.
26 games boys, 26 games girls...some places 4 games a night. Two for sure..3 somewhat common. Split on home and away but still got $2500 very minimum for labor.
Been a hard core discussion for minimum 20 years.
Click to expand...
how are you coming up with this costing a school $2,500 a year? you think schools are going to pay close to $100 for someone to run a shot clock for a 1-1/2 to 2 hour varsity basketball game?

26 home games between boys and girls plus playoff games for some schools....
 



upnorthkid said:
i'm going to presume they'll say just have your scoreboard operator do it. not saying it's right, but assuming that's the counter point
Click to expand...

I don't see any way someone could run the scoreboard AND the shot clock. Those have to be two separate jobs, as each are a handful during a game.
 

tjgopher said:
I don't see any way someone could run the scoreboard AND the shot clock. Those have to be two separate jobs, as each are a handful during a game.
Click to expand...
not saying they're right, just saying that's what they'll say
 

upnorthkid said:
not saying they're right, just saying that's what they'll say
Click to expand...
that is not what they will say....and that is not what they have said....if they were arguing that the person running the scoreboard could also run the shot clock this would have never passed...
its been debated for years....and the 90% of schools that were on board with this understood the other side of the isle and high school coaches i have talked to about this over the last 4-5 years when it really started to be pushed hard not one of them expected the person doing the scoreboard to have to do both
 

tjgopher said:
I don't see any way someone could run the scoreboard AND the shot clock. Those have to be two separate jobs, as each are a handful during a game.
Click to expand...
i personally do the shot clock for a 2A school for maybe 3-5 games a year....and you are right...there is no way the scoreboard person could do it they are way to busy the way it is now that most scoreboards have the players number/points/fouls that they are always changing with subbing in...and nobody will be saying they can.....
 



upnorthkid said:
not saying they're right, just saying that's what they'll say
Click to expand...

Nope, no one can say that. It is impossible to do. If it were an emergency, they would likely just not do a shot clock at all, as opposed to trying to have someone do both shot clock and scoreboard/clock.
 

Personally not a fan of this. I hope the MSHSL is going to help with the cost for some of the smaller schools to buy/install these. At least buy them in bulk and then sell them to the schools at cost. It may not be a huge initial cost to many of us, but it is not insignificant for many of these smaller schools that are already stretched really thin. They already struggle to get referees and scorekeepers, and adding another necessary position for each game only adds to the headache as well as the cost. Its a good thing that they are delaying for a couple years so everyone can figure out the details.
 

60's Guy said:
That may not be the end of it...there were many school administrators very adamant about this not happening due to cost.
Lots of schools don't draw any fans. Take away the coaching staff...you got ticket sellers, ticket takers. Person on duty responsible for being in charge of violence and stuff just happens etc...sometimes that's the AD but he can't be there 5/6 nights a week either with all the sports, plus all day too.
Custodians on site for basket, scoreboard, bleacher malfunctions....cleanup etc
Scoreboard operator, score keeper. Many have a doctor or nurse on hand. Now you are adding another worker to run the shot clock plus a backup for any of those.
Concessions usually volunteer fundraiser.
Not a problem at big schools who draw fans but there are a lot of A and AA teams who get less than 10, 20, 40 paid people to the game.
Girls can be less.
26 games boys, 26 games girls...some places 4 games a night. Two for sure..3 somewhat common. Split on home and away but still got $2500 very minimum for labor.
Been a hard core discussion for minimum 20 years.
Click to expand...
The shot clock is only for varsity games so about 13 home games each for boys and girls. $2500 seems like a lot. There's no reason most places can't find someone to do it for about $30-$40 a night.
 

It will work out. Schools need to get creative and get kids that are really interested in Sport related careers to do these operations as internships and resume builders. Again, it will work out. It's varsity only and if they do it at lower levels, the boosters or pull tab groups can step up.
 

Haven't many other states already done it? I'm sure the issues you guys are talking about with small towns here have been the same in other states and they've managed to implement it. There will be plenty of examples to work off of.

I mean the Dakotas have done it, I think we'll be fine.
 

I think the big objection from the AD's is the cost of the equipment. I was on the Daktronics website and these things aren't cheap. Apparently, the rule says the shot clocks have to be mounted above the backboard. So the cost of the equipment and wiring will run into several thousand dollars - and if schools have multiple gyms that host varsity events, that will be per gym.

I could see booster clubs helping with some of the cost. a lot of schools have gotten sponsorships for these new video scoreboards, so I could also see them going to local businesses and asking them to chip in to cover the cost of shot clocks.

having a competent person to run the shot clock is a separate issue. and it's not something that any yahoo can do - there are a lot of rules governing when the clock has to be re-set.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
I think the big objection from the AD's is the cost of the equipment. I was on the Daktronics website and these things aren't cheap. Apparently, the rule says the shot clocks have to be mounted above the backboard. So the cost of the equipment and wiring will run into several thousand dollars - and if schools have multiple gyms that host varsity events, that will be per gym.

I could see booster clubs helping with some of the cost. a lot of schools have gotten sponsorships for these new video scoreboards, so I could also see them going to local businesses and asking them to chip in to cover the cost of shot clocks.

having a competent person to run the shot clock is a separate issue. and it's not something that any yahoo can do - there are a lot of rules governing when the clock has to be re-set.
Click to expand...
Yea, it’s certainly doable, but not as easy as some think. You aren’t pulling someone off the street and giving them 30 bucks with zero training to come in and do it every night.
 

I use to organize AAU tournaments. 100s of teams across many sites. Was always interesting to find clock operators. Usually ended up running a clock myself cause some kid would bail. We’d pay them fairly well and give them free concessions. Lots of high school kids would sit there for 10-12 hours and do it for a 5th-6th-7th grade tournament. Very few issues.
Shot clock will have some growing pains but will be implemented and efficient soon enough. As someone else stated there are plenty of small schools who have dealt with this.
 

I totally agree it is doable. Superintendents, principals and the like can be very, very conservative.
They like, NO! much more than yes and I think a fair number despise sports. That's the sticking point or we'd have had shot clocks 25 years ago.
 

Gophs24 said:
how are you coming up with this costing a school $2,500 a year? you think schools are going to pay close to $100 for someone to run a shot clock for a 1-1/2 to 2 hour varsity basketball game?

26 home games between boys and girls plus playoff games for some schools....
Click to expand...
I will be surprised if coaches and AD's with the equipment in place let it sit idle during JV games.
Class A especially, has kids play in both games. You'd like things consistent.

How much do you think referees get paid per game? Somebody getting screamed at because of operator error ain't lasting long at $30 a game. Coaches, AD's will demand this person is competent .... it's too frustrating to everybody if it is done poorly. Refs can T you up, shot clock operators get yelled at too often, they won't stay...it's their only way to express their unhappiness or realization it's harder than they thought and no fun.
Lots of kids could do it but it's pretty rare to have a kid from your school in an official capacity. More controversy.
 

Taking the air out of the ball is a strategy a coach can use and other coaches have to prepare for. As a coach, I don't care if fans like it or not, if it helps me win a game, I want to be able to use it.
 

I have watched several games in recent years where MN teams traveled to play SD teams in SD, and the shot clock was used. Of 5 or 6 games under those conditions, I think there was 1 or maybe 2 shot-clock violations, and several games with no violations.

Once the game started, I honestly forgot about the shot clock except for a few times when teams had extended possessions.

and it does not take defense out of the game. If you can play solid defense for 35 seconds, you get the ball back, so a team that is trailing has hope. on the other hand, the team with the lead can't just sit on the ball. they have to keep running their offense. I just think it makes for a more entertaining game.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
the MN State High School League executive Board met Thursday morning. by voice vote, the board approved a motion to use a :35 shot clock for Varsity Boys and Girls Basketball games, starting with the 2023-24 season.

A majority of coaches supported the move. Some AD's had expressed concerns - including the cost and logistics of purchasing and installing the equipment, and the need to find additional people to run the clocks during games.

reading between the lines, that is why they are waiting until the '23-24 season to implement the change - to give schools time to address those issues.

So no more "stall" games like the infamous Hopkins-Shakopee game in the State Tournament - a game, BTW, that ended on a half-court shot by Amir Coffey.
Click to expand...
Are these the same ADs who welcomed the Pepsi/Coca-Cola scoreboard sponsoring wars?
 

I know a few ADs and yet another reason I wouldn't want to be one! Man the stories I hear. Thankless job.
 

60's Guy said:
I will be surprised if coaches and AD's with the equipment in place let it sit idle during JV games.
Class A especially, has kids play in both games. You'd like things consistent.

How much do you think referees get paid per game? Somebody getting screamed at because of operator error ain't lasting long at $30 a game. Coaches, AD's will demand this person is competent .... it's too frustrating to everybody if it is done poorly. Refs can T you up, shot clock operators get yelled at too often, they won't stay...it's their only way to express their unhappiness or realization it's harder than they thought and no fun.
Lots of kids could do it but it's pretty rare to have a kid from your school in an official capacity. More controversy.
Click to expand...
I will be shocked if most schools run shot clocks for JV games......and certainly not in the Class A/AA classes....

I have been doing shot clock on a limited bases for 5-6 years.....and i have been yelled at maybe once....running a shot clock is far from rocket science. but you are right....with the crazy obnoxious parents/fans at games today i suppose this will be a position that will get some heat. But no more then what the regular scoreboard operator gets. I do it for $15 an hour or basically $30 a game....and i think thats a pretty fair price for me to get the best seat in the house watching a basketball game. especially when i would be at most every home game anyway....(they dont need to know that i would do it for free......)

Schools may certainly need to go through a couple people until they find the right fit but the nah sayers on this are blowing it out of proportion a bit. schools will continue to have a harder time finding refs for 7th/8th/9th grade games then they will to find someone to run a shot clock....imo anyway.
 

Hand-wringing over 1 game that took place 8 years ago got us here.

IMHO the HS game did not and does not need shot clocks.
 

60's Guy said:
I will be surprised if coaches and AD's with the equipment in place let it sit idle during JV games.
Class A especially, has kids play in both games. You'd like things consistent.

How much do you think referees get paid per game? Somebody getting screamed at because of operator error ain't lasting long at $30 a game. Coaches, AD's will demand this person is competent .... it's too frustrating to everybody if it is done poorly. Refs can T you up, shot clock operators get yelled at too often, they won't stay...it's their only way to express their unhappiness or realization it's harder than they thought and no fun.
Lots of kids could do it but it's pretty rare to have a kid from your school in an official capacity. More controversy.
Click to expand...
100% agree with this - if that clock is in place, it'll be used for JV games as well. I'm in NW Minnesota (Fargo-Moorhead Area) and have seen the Shot Clock used for middle school games and tournaments on the North Dakota side of the river - I haven't talked to any coaches or AD's up here that think it'll be a burden, or a bad thing - excited to see how it effects games.
 

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