metrodome roof collapses

The dome was built on the cheap. I wonder what the payoff would be on a billion dollar stadium? If and when a stadium deal ever gets done, I think the legislature ought to call Ziggy's bluff and require a team contribution of 1/3 the cost of a domed stadium. To hell with a retractable roof. Who cares about a 40 yard by 60 yard hole in the roof? Fat lot of difference to anyone inside.

Agree about the sunroof or is it a moonroof. Complete waste of money. I'm sure back than people were freaking out about the 68 million for the cost of the Dome but people should try to view it as an investment. P.S. The Dome has hosted 10 NCAA men's bball tourney. Not sure what rounds bring in the most money.
 

How much do these events actually contribute towards the taxes that would pay for a venue and do the added costs of having such events actually payoff? And when was the last political convention at the Dome? What's wrong with playing the prep bowl at TCF?

Hundreds of millions. Exact amounts depend on which economist you want to believe. I'm sure someone will come on here and say these events make almost nothing. But they do generate millions and likely hundreds of millions in additional tax revenue.

And what are the intangible benefits? Hubert Humphrey gets mocked for his 'Cold Omaha' speech, but it was true. There is an intangible benefit for a city and state to having professional sports. In the rest of the U.S. one of the first things people mention when they find out you're from Minnesota is the Twins or the Vikings. How much is that intangible benefit worth? Maybe that's the crux of the debate. There are some angry Gopher fans on here who feel it's a negative benefit. But can you imagine the jubilation that would exist for 95% of Minnesotans if they ever won the Super Bowl? What was that worth to the city of New Orleans? It was incalculable.

The Hennipen County courts ruled the same thing when they refused to allow contraction. They said the Twins provided an incalculable intangible benefit to the state by playing their games and no amount of money could satisfy their obligation in the lease. They were obligated to specific performance to fulfill the terms of the lease. If this is true, how can we now say they aren't worth anything and we won't contribute even one penny to an adequate facility?
 

Hundreds of millions. Exact amounts depend on which economist you want to believe. I'm sure someone will come on here and say these events make almost nothing. But they do generate millions and likely hundreds of millions in additional tax revenue.

And what are the intangible benefits? Hubert Humphrey gets mocked for his 'Cold Omaha' speech, but it was true. There is an intangible benefit for a city and state to having professional sports. In the rest of the U.S. one of the first things people mention when they find out you're from Minnesota is the Twins or the Vikings. How much is that intangible benefit worth? Maybe that's the crux of the debate. There are some angry Gopher fans on here who feel it's a negative benefit. But can you imagine the jubilation that would exist for 95% of Minnesotans if they ever won the Super Bowl? What was that worth to the city of New Orleans? It was incalculable.

The Hennipen County courts ruled the same thing when they refused to allow contraction. They said the Twins provided an incalculable intangible benefit to the state by playing their games and no amount of money could satisfy their obligation in the lease. They were obligated to specific performance to fulfill the terms of the lease. If this is true, how can we now say they aren't worth anything and we won't contribute even one penny to an adequate facility?

Can't have it both ways. If there was a tax to save the world, I'm sure 25% of the population would oppose it.
 

What gets my goat is that 75% of the state does not want to pay for a stadium. But, I bet a similar poll asking if those same people want or think the Vikings should be allowed to leave, 75% would say no.

Actually Public Policy Polling released a poll that said 61% no money for the stadium & 49% said the Vikings can move to LA for all they care.

Vikings get two doses of bad news.
 

Domed stadiums seem to have a short lifespan. The Kingdome lasted 23 years. The Silverdome was home to the Lions for 20 years. It was recently used for a monster truck event, but that's not much of a life for a stadium. When the roof has problems, repairs get too expensive. Open-air stadiums, on the other hand can have renovations nearly indefinitely. The retractable roof just adds an insane amount of money to the project, and is just more things to go wrong. Just play outdoors. They do it in Green Bay and Chicago, they can do it here.
 


Actually Public Policy Polling released a poll that said 61% no money for the stadium & 49% said the Vikings can move to LA for all they care.

Vikings get two doses of bad news.

People said the same thing about the Twins years ago but now they gush about Target Field and the Minnesota Twins. People love to be negative. If the same poll was given about Gopher football the results would break our hearts. Finally, way too many Packers fans read the Star Trib.
 

Domed stadiums seem to have a short lifespan. The Kingdome lasted 23 years. The Silverdome was home to the Lions for 20 years. It was recently used for a monster truck event, but that's not much of a life for a stadium. When the roof has problems, repairs get too expensive. Open-air stadiums, on the other hand can have renovations nearly indefinitely. The retractable roof just adds an insane amount of money to the project, and is just more things to go wrong. Just play outdoors. They do it in Green Bay and Chicago, they can do it here.

Domes have a short life span but we don't know about the new roofed stadiums and their life span. Actually it seems multi-purpose stadiums and not just domes have short life spans. Philly, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincy, all gone. 70's780's dark ages of stadium design. Again a roof brings NCAA Bball here which is very nice. 4-8 different fan bases in town with money to blow.
 

Actually Public Policy Polling released a poll that said 61% no money for the stadium & 49% said the Vikings can move to LA for all they care.

Vikings get two doses of bad news.

If you really believe 49% of people wouldn't care when the moving vans pull up in Eden Prairie, you're nuts. 65% don't want to pay for a stadium and 65% will be mad when they leave, which means 30% are hypocrites on this issue. And those 30% flooded Target Field last year and think it's great.

You can take polls from now until the end of time and you'll get that 65% or so always opposed. What has changed from 10-15 years ago is that middle group, at the end of the day doesn't really care. There will always be the 35% that are in favor, and there will always be the 35% that are angrily opposed. But that middle 30% no longer cares. They don't really want to pay for it, and if you ask them in a poll they'll say no. But they don't want the Vikings to leave either. And if their Representative or Senator votes yes on the stadium tax, they won't even notice. But when the Vikings pull the moving vans up, they WILL notice. The politicians came to realize this subtle shift with the Twins and no one suffered in the next election. I hope they realize it now for the Vikings before it's too late.
 

The economic impact numbers thrown around for these "mega events" are hyper inflated. When you don't actually have to show any of the money, you can make up whatever number you want.

Hosting the prep bowl brings one-hundred billion dollars into the Minneapolis economy. There. See how easy it is?
 



The economic impact numbers thrown around for these "mega events" are hyper inflated. When you don't actually have to show any of the money, you can make up whatever number you want.

Hosting the prep bowl brings one-hundred billion dollars into the Minneapolis economy. There. See how easy it is?

At times they are inflated. But to disregard them totally and say they don't help justify having a major indoor venue is even more disingenuous then a slightly inflated estimate of the economic impact. A Final Four brings in 30,000 + fans from out of town. They spend $100's of dollars each on hotels, restaurants, etc. Like it or not, that IS millions of dollars flowing into the economy. A Super Bowl is multiple times that. And what about 2 or 3 Final Fours? What about multiple earlier rounds? What is made simply from playing the Packers and enjoying the Cheesehead invasion? You cannot dismiss all of these things.
 

Domes have a short life span but we don't know about the new roofed stadiums and their life span. Actually it seems multi-purpose stadiums and not just domes have short life spans. Philly, St. Louis, Pittsburgh, Cincy, all gone. 70's780's dark ages of stadium design. Again a roof brings NCAA Bball here which is very nice. 4-8 different fan bases in town with money to blow.

I think the issue is less Dome/non-Dome then single-use vs multi-purpose. In the 60's and 70's baseball stadiums were built in Pittsburgh, Philadelphia, Cincy, San Diego and Kansas City. The first four were built multi-purpose. KC built two separate stadiums. Guess which one still has theirs in full operation? The trend for cookie-cutter multi-purpose didn't last. Stadiums built for a specific purpose in KC have lasted. Yes, they've been renovated, but even before renovation, Kaufmann was great. The Domes built in the era were of the same multi-sport mode, and in the case of the Metrodome, built cheap. A football-only dome built right should last much longer.
 

At times they are inflated. But to disregard them totally and say they don't help justify having a major indoor venue is even more disingenuous then a slightly inflated estimate of the economic impact. A Final Four brings in 30,000 + fans from out of town. They spend $100's of dollars each on hotels, restaurants, etc. Like it or not, that IS millions of dollars flowing into the economy. A Super Bowl is multiple times that. And what about 2 or 3 Final Fours? What about multiple earlier rounds? What is made simply from playing the Packers and enjoying the Cheesehead invasion? You cannot dismiss all of these things.

The numbers aren't just slightly inflated.

"I think those are gross exaggerations," said Alan Sanderson, a University of Chicago economist.

Out of that multimillion-dollar number, he said, you have to subtract expenditures that would have happened regardless of the Super Bowl. Take out jacked-up hotel room prices that go to an out-of-town company like Hyatt. Take out ticket prices and souvenir sales for hats and jerseys made outside of Florida. Subtract the millions that won't be spent at area malls because of Super Bowl-related events.

Then add in estimates that Sanderson says are usually not included in forecasts, such as "additional security costs, marketing and advertising that the NFL may foist off on the locals to do."

In the end, "if the NFL gives you a number of $300-million, I'm going to say $50-million max of that"


Philip Porter at USF suggests even less value.


One must wonder where the impact number came from. The Task Force didn't commission a study and none of the members are economists.

History didn't reveal it to them because I've studied Super Bowl impacts and there is nothing in the record of economic activity that suggests this. I'd bet the mortgage that the Task Force members couldn't tell us what those numbers mean or how they were estimated.

In January 1991 when Tampa hosted the Super Bowl, Hillsborough County recorded sales of $720 million. It had sales of $727 million the previous January (1990) and $742 million the next January.

In January 1984, when Tampa hosted the Super Bowl, Hillsborough County recorded sales of $472 million. The average for the preceding and following Januarys was $482 million.

And this economic impact evidence is consistent with every Super Bowl.

In Miami, Atlanta, New Orleans, Phoenix, Minneapolis, Minn., and Detroit, and in every Super Bowl in California, sales do not respond to the presence of a Super Bowl.

The $180 million plus cost of a roof is real money.


As for the Cheesehead invasion, that would be much more enjoyable if we had a proper open-air stadium for our pro team. As it is, there's no good response when they remind us that our team plays "wimp ball" in a plastic bubble.
 

If you really believe 49% of people wouldn't care when the moving vans pull up in Eden Prairie, you're nuts. 65% don't want to pay for a stadium and 65% will be mad when they leave, which means 30% are hypocrites on this issue. And those 30% flooded Target Field last year and think it's great.

You can take polls from now until the end of time and you'll get that 65% or so always opposed. What has changed from 10-15 years ago is that middle group, at the end of the day doesn't really care. There will always be the 35% that are in favor, and there will always be the 35% that are angrily opposed. But that middle 30% no longer cares. They don't really want to pay for it, and if you ask them in a poll they'll say no. But they don't want the Vikings to leave either. And if their Representative or Senator votes yes on the stadium tax, they won't even notice. But when the Vikings pull the moving vans up, they WILL notice. The politicians came to realize this subtle shift with the Twins and no one suffered in the next election. I hope they realize it now for the Vikings before it's too late.

It if funny, because he provided statistics that were based on scientific polling, and you provided stats based on whatever you could pull out of your butt.....yet you still see your response as a legitimate opposing opinion.
 



It if funny, because he provided statistics that were based on scientific polling, and you provided stats based on whatever you could pull out of your butt.....yet you still see your response as a legitimate opposing opinion.

Read the article that was linked and tell me if Ski u MahGopher's statement is supported by the data in the poll.
 

Saying forty-nine percent would rather have the team move to California than get public subsidies in Minnesota is not the same as 49% said the Vikings can move to LA for all they care.
 


Saying forty-nine percent would rather have the team move to California than get public subsidies in Minnesota is not the same as 49% said the Vikings can move to LA for all they care.

The two statements are essentially one in the same.
There will be no stadium without public subsidies. There will be no Vikings with no Stadium.

If you would rather see the team move to California than have public subsidies, in terms of public opinion, public policy, and legislative pressure...you do not care if the Vikings leave town.

Maybe the people answering the poll could not put this together, but that is not the polls fault.
 

Actually Public Policy Polling released a poll that said 61% no money for the stadium & 49% said the Vikings can move to LA for all they care.

Vikings get two doses of bad news.

I bet that number would be lower last year at this time when the team was winning. Just think if they won the Super Bowl.

And honestly, I don't think that is that bad of a number. It's hard for us to believe, but there are a bunch of people who are just not sports fans. They would say no to a new stadium no matter what plan they come up with. How many polled are not even originally from MN? How many are Packer fans living in the TC?

Even many of your average bandwagon fan will jump on and off the bandwagon every week. I think we all know those kind of "fans." The team is winning and they act like they're the biggest fans in the world. The team is losing and they'll stop watching and following half way through the season.
 

It if funny, because he provided statistics that were based on scientific polling, and you provided stats based on whatever you could pull out of your butt.....yet you still see your response as a legitimate opposing opinion.

I suspect is it somewhat legit, simply because you rarely see people complaining once such facilities are built and operational.

A lot of people claimed that the public would immediately vote out of office the Hennepin County commissioners and state representatives that pushed through the Target field deal, but that didn't happen. Many of those people are still in office today. People have short memories when it comes to these things, for better or for worse.

The only instance I can think of where that did happen, was with the representative that cast the deciding vote to pass the tax hike that built Miller Park in Milwaukee.

The biggest issue with using public money for an NFL stadium, as opposed to a MLB stadium, is that the football stadium is more expensive, yet is used for 10% of the dates, making it a much worse investment. By building a covered stadium, you're able to use it year-round for other activities, though this is overblown to a large extent, simply because the Metrodome isn't really used that much outside of Vikings games and Gopher baseball.

One note about the Metrodome, is that not only was it built on the cheap, it's had very few renovations in its 30 year lifespan. In fact, for as much use as it's had, it's had fewer improvements than most buildings of its type. Look at the Ed Jones Dome in St. Louis, built in 1995 - they just did a 30 million dollar renovation on the stadium last season. Look at Target Center even, built in 1991, which has also had extensive renovations. The dome simply has not been improved or kept up, and as such, it should be no surprise that issues are starting to pop up.
 

I hate the Vikings, but I'd be more than willing to go to games in a new stadium out in the suburbs with proper tailgating options available to anyone who wants them. The solution to the money issue is quite simple. Tell the current gaming lobby to eff right off and put slot machines in Canterbury. Take it a step further and incorporate a casino into the M.O.A. expansion. A new stadium would be paid off post haste. I don't care what you think of the team, the NFL is the apex of professional sports and you want a team in your city. This isn't the Swarm leaving town.
 

I suspect is it somewhat legit, simply because you rarely see people complaining once such facilities are built and operational.

A lot of people claimed that the public would immediately vote out of office the Hennepin County commissioners and state representatives that pushed through the Target field deal, but that didn't happen. Many of those people are still in office today. People have short memories when it comes to these things, for better or for worse.

The only instance I can think of where that did happen, was with the representative that cast the deciding vote to pass the tax hike that built Miller Park in Milwaukee.

The biggest issue with using public money for an NFL stadium, as opposed to a MLB stadium, is that the football stadium is more expensive, yet is used for 10% of the dates, making it a much worse investment. By building a covered stadium, you're able to use it year-round for other activities, though this is overblown to a large extent, simply because the Metrodome isn't really used that much outside of Vikings games and Gopher baseball.

One note about the Metrodome, is that not only was it built on the cheap, it's had very few renovations in its 30 year lifespan. In fact, for as much use as it's had, it's had fewer improvements than most buildings of its type. Look at the Ed Jones Dome in St. Louis, built in 1995 - they just did a 30 million dollar renovation on the stadium last season. Look at Target Center even, built in 1991, which has also had extensive renovations. The dome simply has not been improved or kept up, and as such, it should be no surprise that issues are starting to pop up.
Very good points. Let's not forget that most of the fans that Target field attracts are from Minnesota. On the other hand, the dome has been able to bring in fans from all over the country and Canada for various events. NFL fans like to travel and make it a little vacation when they are in town. The ten NCAA basketball events brought in tons of outside money as well.
 

The two statements are essentially one in the same.
There will be no stadium without public subsidies. There will be no Vikings with no Stadium.

If you would rather see the team move to California than have public subsidies, in terms of public opinion, public policy, and legislative pressure...you do not care if the Vikings leave town.

Maybe the people answering the poll could not put this together, but that is not the polls fault.

However, the poll did find that Minnesotans were receptive to using proceeds from racino – putting slot machines at the state’s horse racing tracks – to build a new Vikings stadium. Sixty-two percent favored raising money from gaming to build a new stadium, and only a quarter of those asked opposed it.

So than can I say 62% want the Vikings to stay?
 

Not saying they need to go as far above and beyond as Jerry Jones did, but the Cowboys new stadium hasn't exactly been used exclusively for Cowboys football. College games, concerts, boxing. Those things all bring money into the local economy. It would be really cool to have a Big Ten Championship game in town, but that isn't happening unless the Vikings get a new stadium.
 

With all this talk of polling I need to jump in here. At Purdue one of my majors is Poli Sci and I have taken a lot of classes about Public Opinion Polling so I'm going to just give some thoughts.

You can make a poll say anything you want simply by changing the wording of the question. For example roughly 35% of people think the government does not spend enough on welfare, while 65% of people think the government does not spend enough on assistance to the poor. Question wording and question order matter. Before reading anything into the results I want to see the question, their wording, and their responses.

Another thing that concerned me is that the pollsters poll Minnesota voters instead of likely voters. While you might think this is no big deal it can(and sometimes does) lead to incorrect results.

Third the margin of error is 3.2% so really its 6.4%. The reason you double the MOE is that when it is double you will be right 95 times out of 100 instead of 66. When added to both the sides of the answer ALL question are in a statistical dead heat. Meaning we really don't know what position if favored by a majority of Minnesotan except for the idea of people support a racino.

Overall this article leaves something important items out. I'm not saying the pollsters conducted the poll correctly or incorrectly, just that I want more info before passing judgement either way on these poll results.
 

Not saying they need to go as far above and beyond as Jerry Jones did, but the Cowboys new stadium hasn't exactly been used exclusively for Cowboys football. College games, concerts, boxing. Those things all bring money into the local economy. It would be really cool to have a Big Ten Championship game in town, but that isn't happening unless the Vikings get a new stadium.

That would be very cool. You know Indy is going to hold it for sure and Detroit is a good bet but I'm sure Big Ten fans might prefer Minneapolis. People have to be sick of Indy by now.
 

One of the major reasons that people oppose a new Vikings stadium is that people said "You have a perfectly good stadium in the Metrodome. Why should we build another new stadium?" With this collapse and the striking video, this eliminates this objection, as even after repairs are made, few people would call the Metrodome a "perfectly good stadium".

The roof will never collapse at an open air stadium.
 

It if funny, because he provided statistics that were based on scientific polling, and you provided stats based on whatever you could pull out of your butt.....yet you still see your response as a legitimate opposing opinion.

My point is 65% are always opposed to the stadium and 65% generally say they would be upset if the Vikings left. That has been refelcted in multiple polls through the years. The poll cited in this thread is the first I have ever seen that claims 49% want the Vikings to take a hike and I have no idea who the pollster is.

Bottom-line, multiple previous polls have shown there is a segment of about 30% of people who don't want the Vikings to leave, but will still say 'No' in a stadium poll. In 1997 those people were really opposed and crashed the Capital phone system. After 10 years of exhaustive debate, they stopped caring. That is why Target Field and TCF passed in 2006. Virtually no representative that I am aware of got voted out primarily for supporting either stadium and all 4 HC Commissioners who voted Yes were re-elected.

In my opinion, those people are still 'no' votes, but they're soft no votes, and many of them probably couldn't tell you how their representative voted on Target Field and won't be able to tell you how they vote on the Vikings stadium. I know many people who fall in this group. But if the day actually comes that the Vikings move, I believe those 30%, along with the 35% who already say 'yes' will be mad as hell at whoever they perceive to be responsible. Therefore, the state legislature would be wise to come up with a reasonable solution. The Vikings need to step it up as well, and offer to pay at least 1/3.
 

One of the major reasons that people oppose a new Vikings stadium is that people said "You have a perfectly good stadium in the Metrodome. Why should we build another new stadium?" With this collapse and the striking video, this eliminates this objection, as even after repairs are made, few people would call the Metrodome a "perfectly good stadium".

The roof will never collapse at an open air stadium.

I do think the roof collapse will sway a few people. However, I simply cannot see the practicality of an open-air stadium. If the additional cost is only an extra $100-150 million you have to put the roof on. First, while they may claim otherwise, I don't think Vikings fans will come out to watch the team when they are 5-7 and it's 0 degrees. Just because they did it 40 years ago, doesn't mean they will now (and how often were they 5-7 in the Grant era?)

Second, if it's open-air it will literally get used only a few times a year. Simply getting one Super Bowl probably justifies the additional cost all by itself, so say nothing of a couple Final Fours, etc.
 

I do think the roof collapse will sway a few people. However, I simply cannot see the practicality of an open-air stadium. If the additional cost is only an extra $100-150 million you have to put the roof on. First, while they may claim otherwise, I don't think Vikings fans will come out to watch the team when they are 5-7 and it's 0 degrees. Just because they did it 40 years ago, doesn't mean they will now (and how often were they 5-7 in the Grant era?)

Second, if it's open-air it will literally get used only a few times a year. Simply getting one Super Bowl probably justifies the additional cost all by itself, so say nothing of a couple Final Fours, etc.

I will add a few things to that

1 During the Bud Grant years the Vikes never sold out even one playoff game in a stadium that sat roughly 47,ooo people.

2 The days of 'three yards and a cloud of permafrost' are pretty much gone. NFL is much more of a skill game in this era.

3 To those that say football was meant to be played outdoors, I would say yes but not in the north in december and january.

4 An occasional game (like vs Bears at TCF next week) is one thing, but not a steady diet.

5 Target Field is used(and brings in money to area) for 81 home dates. New Vike stadium has only 10 dates. A new Vike stadium must sold as and used for a multiple use venue.
 




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