Matthew Hurt

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cjbfbp said:
That was a fine season and his overall composite advanced stats at Duke also were quite good for his two years there.

However, Hurt was the RSCI consensus #6 player in the country in the fall of his senior year (he slipped to #12 after his senior year). When you're that highly rated these days, having a very good college career is not the most important goal. Of the top 11 in that fall-of-senior-year ranking, only Hurt and #9 Khalil Whitney remained undrafted after two years following their prep careers.

Right now, one could say that Hurt is in the same position as McKinley Wright; trying to earn an eventual spot by way of a two-way contract. McKinley Wright was nowhere to be found among the RSCI top 100 at the beginning of his senior year of high school. 247 rated him as the #229 player in the country.

So, Truth Seeker is more or less correct. Hurt was overrated given his lofty ranking as a prep. I guess we could also say that McKinley Wright was underrated.
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I was thinking from the perspective of a college basketball fan since this isn’t an NBA forum and no one in that draft class has played at that level yet. Can you really call a player a bust in the NBA before their class has begun playing NBA games? Seems premature.

He was a great player last season regardless of the fact that he played for a bubble team. If someone told me a 5-star averaged 18 & 6 as efficiently as he did, I personally wouldn’t consider them to be a bust and would love to have that production on our team.

McKinley Wright was definitely underrated. I’d bet the 6’9” elite shooter has a better shot at sticking around in the NBA though.
 
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Keyser Söze said:
I was thinking from the perspective of a college basketball fan since this isn’t an NBA forum and no one in that draft class has played at that level yet. Can you really call a player a bust in the NBA before their class has begun playing NBA games? Seems premature.

He was a great player last season regardless of the fact that he played for a bubble team. If someone told me a 5-star averaged 18 & 6 as efficiently as he did, I personally wouldn’t consider them to be a bust and would love to have that production on our team.

McKinley Wright was definitely underrated. I’d bet the 6’9” elite shooter has a better shot at sticking around in the NBA though.
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I didn't say he was "a bust" and Truth Seeker didn't say he was "terrible." Those are your words, not ours. Truth Seeker said he was overrated and I agreed given his national ranking. Someone who is rated as highly as he was is considered to be almost a sure fire NBA player, even likely at the starter level. To go undrafted with that kind of ranking is an underachievement. He certainly was a very good player but, in reality, he likely was more of a top 30 or 40 player rather than a top 10 player.
 

cjbfbp said:
I didn't say he was "a bust" and Truth Seeker didn't say he was "terrible." Those are your words, not ours. Truth Seeker said he was overrated and I agreed given his national ranking. Someone who is rated as highly as he was is considered to be almost a sure fire NBA player, even likely at the starter level. To go undrafted with that kind of ranking is an underachievement. He certainly was a very good player but, in reality, he likely was more of a top 30 or 40 player rather than a top 10 player.
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I think you're splitting hairs a bit. Saying he was overrated means that you think he didn't live up to expectations, which is kinda the definition of a bust, right?

If you're thinking from the perspective of an NBA fan, then it's likely that he was overrated (his NBA career hasn't even started though, so can't definitively say one way or the other yet). From the perspective of a college basketball fan, I think he lived up to expectations, or at least came close enough where calling him overrated comes off as a little petty to me. 18 and 6 with his efficiency is extremely good and seems like 5-star level stats to me. Sure, he didn't play for a great team (wasn't THAT bad though), but that didn't magically make him crazy efficient like he was. He shot 55% even though almost half of his shots were threes and was First Team All-ACC. He was also in consideration for ACC player of the year.

Seems like a handful on this board think he sucks, which I think is just rooted in bitterness from him not playing here.
 

Keyser Söze said:
I think you're splitting hairs a bit. Saying he was overrated means that you think he didn't live up to expectations, which is kinda the definition of a bust, right?

If you're thinking from the perspective of an NBA fan, then it's likely that he was overrated (his NBA career hasn't even started though, so can't definitively say one way or the other yet). From the perspective of a college basketball fan, I think he lived up to expectations, or at least came close enough where calling him overrated comes off as a little petty to me. 18 and 6 with his efficiency is extremely good and seems like 5-star level stats to me. Sure, he didn't play for a great team (wasn't THAT bad though), but that didn't magically make him crazy efficient like he was. He shot 55% even though almost half of his shots were threes and was First Team All-ACC. He was also in consideration for ACC player of the year.

Seems like a handful on this board think he sucks, which I think is just rooted in bitterness from him not playing here.
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He was a decent college player but he was absolutely disappointing (from a college fan's standpoint) considering his rank.

He was ranked between 10-12 in the entire country. Most years, that range of recruit is full of guys with solid NBA careers who were the best players in college basketball.

Michael Hurt was a good shooter and he could have been a nice piece to a good team. However, he wasn't one of the top players in college basketball. He was an awful rebounder and terrible defender. This isn't sour grapes for me, I had absolutely zero delusions that he would ever play here and Matthew Hurt ending up being a pretty good college basketball is a disappointment for someone ranked that high.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
He was a decent college player but he was absolutely disappointing (from a college fan's standpoint) considering his rank.

He was ranked between 10-12 in the entire country. Most years, that range of recruit is full of guys with solid NBA careers who were the best players in college basketball.

Michael Hurt was a good shooter and he could have been a nice piece to a good team. However, he wasn't one of the top players in college basketball. He was an awful rebounder and terrible defender. This isn't sour grapes for me, I had absolutely zero delusions that he would ever play here and Matthew Hurt ending up being a pretty good college basketball is a disappointment for someone ranked that high.
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Exactly right. Verbal Kint isn't thinking clearly.
 


Keyser Söze said:
I think you're splitting hairs a bit. Saying he was overrated means that you think he didn't live up to expectations, which is kinda the definition of a bust, right?

If you're thinking from the perspective of an NBA fan, then it's likely that he was overrated (his NBA career hasn't even started though, so can't definitively say one way or the other yet). From the perspective of a college basketball fan, I think he lived up to expectations, or at least came close enough where calling him overrated comes off as a little petty to me. 18 and 6 with his efficiency is extremely good and seems like 5-star level stats to me. Sure, he didn't play for a great team (wasn't THAT bad though), but that didn't magically make him crazy efficient like he was. He shot 55% even though almost half of his shots were threes and was First Team All-ACC. He was also in consideration for ACC player of the year.

Seems like a handful on this board think he sucks, which I think is just rooted in bitterness from him not playing here.
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Problem is Duke WAS a bad team this year though.

I am sure you are correct, some are salty he didn't come here. I'm just salty we still talk about him lol, he signed a two-way deal who cares? One could argue he could have increased his draft stock by staying, hard to imagine it being any worse considering his HS expectations.
 

Keyser Söze said:
I think you're splitting hairs a bit. Saying he was overrated means that you think he didn't live up to expectations, which is kinda the definition of a bust, right?
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Now I understand one of your problems: you don't understand the meaning of words. Either that or 1) you just insist on twisting them to your own meaning when your in an argument (a dishonest and weasely practice I would say) OR 2) you simply lack any sense of nuance.

"Bust" signifies a total (or almost total) fail given expectations. Not living up to expectations simply means performing below expectations. If those expectations are extremely high, a person could still perform pretty well and still not live up to expectations. Here are a couple of examples of each term using NBA draft picks:

Busts:

Anthony Bennett: #1 pick but played in only 151 games over 4 years (wouldn't have played that long had he not been a #1 draft choice). Had a career PER of 10.2, Win Shares per 40 of .013, and a True Shooting Percentage of 45.7%.

Adam Morrison: First Team All American, College Co-Player of the Year in 2006 (with JJ Redick) and #3 draft choice. Played in only 161 games over 3 years and had a career PER of 7.4, Win Shares per 40 of negative .021, and a True Shooting Percentage of 44.8%.

Failed to live up to expectations:

Joe Smith: #1 draft choice. Failed to live up to expectations but had a fairly solid workmanlike career over 1,030 games in 16 years.

Evan Turner: A first team All American, Consensus National Player of the Year, and #2 draft choice. Turner is a bit closer to a bust than Joe Smith. He was a chronically inefficient shooter and scorer but he did do some things well and managed to play 705 games over a 10 year career.
 

cjbfbp said:
Now I understand one of your problems: you don't understand the meaning of words. Either that or 1) you just insist on twisting them to your own meaning when your in an argument (a dishonest and weasely practice I would say) OR 2) you simply lack any sense of nuance.

"Bust" signifies a total (or almost total) fail given expectations. Not living up to expectations simply means performing below expectations. If those expectations are extremely high, a person could still perform pretty well and still not live up to expectations. Here are a couple of examples of each term using NBA draft picks:

Busts:

Anthony Bennett: #1 pick but played in only 151 games over 4 years (wouldn't have played that long had he not been a #1 draft choice). Had a career PER of 10.2, Win Shares per 40 of .013, and a True Shooting Percentage of 45.7%.

Adam Morrison: First Team All American, College Co-Player of the Year in 2006 (with JJ Redick) and #3 draft choice. Played in only 161 games over 3 years and had a career PER of 7.4, Win Shares per 40 of negative .021, and a True Shooting Percentage of 44.8%.

Failed to live up to expectations:

Joe Smith: #1 draft choice. Failed to live up to expectations but had a fairly solid workmanlike career over 1,030 games in 16 years.

Evan Turner: A first team All American, Consensus National Player of the Year, and #2 draft choice. Turner is a bit closer to a bust than Joe Smith. He was a chronically inefficient shooter and scorer but he did do some things well and managed to play 705 games over a 10 year career.
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Can you repeat this with fewer words? It was hard for me to follow.

Lol relax. I assumed you guys thought he was overrated to the point of being a bust. Probably because I've heard other people say that. Apparently I was wrong.

I don't know the average college production for a #12 rated player, but I assumed First Team All-ACC (in consideration for ACC player of the year) while averaging 18 points and shooting 55% from the field and 44% from three was pretty much on par. I don't care enough to look it up though. I'll just assume I'm wrong.
 





5 years ago, Matthew would have been an early first round pick. Everyone in the NBA wanted a PF who can stretch the floor

They still do to an extent, but teams now are prioritizing PFs who are rim protectors or truly small-ball 4s that can cover wing players.

Matthew unfortunately doesn’t check any of those boxes. Look at Lauri Markannen. Looks like no team wants him despite being a top 10 pick not that long ago and was considered the prototype big teams were looking for.

Hurt was just in the wrong timeline
 

Lakers612 said:
5 years ago, Matthew would have been an early first round pick. Everyone in the NBA wanted a PF who can stretch the floor

They still do to an extent, but teams now are prioritizing PFs who are rim protectors or truly small-ball 4s that can cover wing players.

Matthew unfortunately doesn’t check any of those boxes. Look at Lauri Markannen. Looks like no team wants him despite being a top 10 pick not that long ago and was considered the prototype big teams were looking for.

Hurt was just in the wrong timeline
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I'm not arguing against your general points but I'm not sure one can say that no one wants Lauri Markannen. Supposedly the Wolves are interested in him. From what I understand his asking price was just too much for the Spurs.
 

cjbfbp said:
I'm not arguing against your general points but I'm not sure one can say that no one wants Lauri Markannen. Supposedly the Wolves are interested in him. From what I understand his asking price was just too much for the Spurs.
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So nobody!
 



Lakers612 said:
5 years ago, Matthew would have been an early first round pick. Everyone in the NBA wanted a PF who can stretch the floor

They still do to an extent, but teams now are prioritizing PFs who are rim protectors or truly small-ball 4s that can cover wing players.

Matthew unfortunately doesn’t check any of those boxes. Look at Lauri Markannen. Looks like no team wants him despite being a top 10 pick not that long ago and was considered the prototype big teams were looking for.

Hurt was just in the wrong timeline
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Hurt and Markannen are not in the wrong timeline.

Doug McDermott just signed a 3 year $42 million deal. Duncan Robinson just signed a 5 year $90 million dollar deal. Stretch 4's are still highly coveted.

Lauri Markannen doesn't have a market right now because he is an RFA. They are really hard to deal with. If you offer a contract, you're essentially can't make a move for a week while the team that holds his rights. Sign and Trades are complicated because a team really doesn't want to give an asset to pay Lauri Markannen a ton of money (he is asking for a ton). Then again, if you're Chicago, you don't want to just take garbage to make salaries match. The RFA's typically get figured out after the UFA market is picked over. Many years, there aren't a ton of suitors remaining for RFAs. It's one of the main reasons the players hate being an RFA so much.

As far as Hurt, his stock is what it is because he was atrocious on defense in the ACC and he cannot rebound. He was uniquely bad, even compared to other all offense stretch 4 types.
 

Keyser Söze said:
Can you repeat this with fewer words? It was hard for me to follow.

Lol relax. I assumed you guys thought he was overrated to the point of being a bust. Probably because I've heard other people say that. Apparently I was wrong.

I don't know the average college production for a #12 rated player, but I assumed First Team All-ACC (in consideration for ACC player of the year) while averaging 18 points and shooting 55% from the field and 44% from three was pretty much on par. I don't care enough to look it up though. I'll just assume I'm wrong.
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I don't have a dog in this particular kerfuffle, but Hurt got three votes in a 5-3-1 voting system for ACC Player of the Year.

I have no idea what the NBA teams look for with players now. I'm old and the game is markedly different from when I used to pay much closer attention. From the bits and pieces I saw of Hurt, he doesn't appear to be particularly athletic (which is the premium these days), which makes him a tweener of sorts. I wouldn't be surprised to see him contribute as a pro, but he has to really get a lot stronger.
 

50PoundHead said:
I don't have a dog in this particular kerfuffle, but Hurt got three votes in a 5-3-1 voting system for ACC Player of the Year.

I have no idea what the NBA teams look for with players now. I'm old and the game is markedly different from when I used to pay much closer attention. From the bits and pieces I saw of Hurt, he doesn't appear to be particularly athletic (which is the premium these days), which makes him a tweener of sorts. I wouldn't be surprised to see him contribute as a pro, but he has to really get a lot stronger.
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I remember thinking he would have a tough time some where down the road as when I saw him play in the McDonald's game as a Senior, he was by far and away the least athletic player on the floor with zero foot speed.

Reality can really really sux.
 

Lakers612 said:
5 years ago, Matthew would have been an early first round pick. Everyone in the NBA wanted a PF who can stretch the floor

They still do to an extent, but teams now are prioritizing PFs who are rim protectors or truly small-ball 4s that can cover wing players.

Matthew unfortunately doesn’t check any of those boxes. Look at Lauri Markannen. Looks like no team wants him despite being a top 10 pick not that long ago and was considered the prototype big teams were looking for.

Hurt was just in the wrong timeline
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Your second paragraph basically says if you can’t defend at least one position you can’t play in the nba. Which has always been true.
 


Did he even get drafted
 


Give him a coupla years in the G-league or whatever the minor NBA league is called nowadays
 


That worked out very well fro Rick Richert, mostly in Australia I think......
 





Gopher Teeth said:
That article is hilarious, it basically says he sucks at everything but shooting; he can’t dribble, no post moves, he can’t guard anyone, oh but he can shoot. Pretty passive aggressive. 😂
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Well, the author did say that he was the most improved player in the ACC at least.
 



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