Mark Coyle in response to is Gophers Men's basketball HC Ben Johnson's job safe (Video)

[Gophers_4life]

That's a terrible response by Coyle- unless he plans on firing Ben. I think that would be a mistake at this moment. I think Ben and his younger players need another year. If he plans on keeping Ben, he should have said great things about Ben and that he is making progress despite a tough year. An ADs job should be to be all in with a coach until the moment he fires him.

Does anyone know what the "5 pillars" are at the U?

 

[Dakota2]

Yeah, not a ringing endorsement for Ben. That response sounds like something Coyle would have said about Claeys at the end of his season. Coyle's response edited below for Claeys:

"Obviously, [Tracy’s] in year 1 and it’s my job as the athletic director to evaluate all [22] programs. And again, when we look at those programs, we look at those 5 pillars if you will, and [Tracy] is aware of those 5 pillars and again, it’s my job, back to Chip’s question, how do we get our [football program] to compete at a high level."

Why in the world would he give Ben a "ringing endorsement"? It would not be warranted. He said what is reasonable at this time. Without a Fleck-level replacement in hand, he needs to give Ben a third year.

 

[Gophers_4life]

I agree with bga1, awful response by Coyle. Coyle had to know this question was coming. And he has to have already made up his mind, so he's either firing Johnson next week or he's letting him come back for Year 3. Assuming the latter, Coyle should have said "listen, the results aren't where I or Coach Johnson expect them. But I believe in Ben. I see how this freshman class is developing, I see how well he's recruiting, I know how much his players love playing for him and I know we will fill The Barn back up, the wins will come and the energy will return."

Instead, Coyle did what Coyle does.

Go Gophers!!

Agree, he should have said that.

Another possibility: maybe he was hoping (or thinking he would have) to avoid any follow up questions that would come from saying something like that, along the lines of "then how did you decide to fire Lindsey instead of giving her one more year?????"

 

[Dakota2]

I agree with bga1, awful response by Coyle. Coyle had to know this question was coming. And he has to have already made up his mind, so he's either firing Johnson next week or he's letting him come back for Year 3. Assuming the latter, Coyle should have said "listen, the results aren't where I or Coach Johnson expect them. But I believe in Ben. I see how this freshman class is developing, I see how well he's recruiting, I know how much his players love playing for him and I know we will fill The Barn back up, the wins will come and the energy will return."

Instead, Coyle did what Coyle does.

Go Gophers!!

Bad take. He hasn't decided what to do 100%. That will come after the season when we see if any young players bolt (exception TT). He is probably 90% sure he is keeping Ben, largely because there is no good option in hand. That could change with multiple departures.

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

How many wins would you guys need next year to feel good about Ben going into year 4?

How few of wins would it take for you to fire him after year 3?

I honestly don't know on the first question. I hate using Wins as the sole metric, there's a lot more that goes into it than that. But right now it looks like an unmitigated grease fire, they are both a poorly constructed roster and poorly coached. That's not a good look, at all.

It's really, Really HARD to lose at the level they are losing. Losing 16 out of 18 conference games is f'ng hard to do.

I really don't know what the answer is, I've never been a "fire the coach" guy. After it happens (Brew, Claeys, Pitino, et al), I'm okay with it and can accept it but for me it's not the immediate knee-jerk reaction it easily is for some.

The problem in this case, Ben just looks over his head in pretty much all aspects of what it is to run a B1G program. And the REAL problem is, what evidence do we have at this point that it will change with another 1, 2, 3 years?

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

How many wins would you guys need next year to feel good about Ben going into year 4?

How few of wins would it take for you to fire him after year 3?

You're talking about him being ok going 5-15 or 6-14 in the conference next season. That's another last place or near last place finish. That could put his overall record against B1G teams somewhere around 11-50 in 3 years. That's not going to work no matter how you slice it.

He needs to be at minimum a bubble team next year which means 9 or 10 wins in the B1G, with a lot of hope for that to improve in year 4.

It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but I have this feeling that Coyle might have something up his sleeve yet after this season completes.

 

[Dakota2]

Mixed results at best. His football hire has obviously been successful. His hockey hire has been as well, but they were good before he got here, and the results in Coyle's 7 years are not appreciably better than the results from the 7 years prior to him. In men's basketball he extended Pitino (which seems to have been a mistake because he had to fire him), and maybe the replacement will be good but early returns are awful. His women's basketball hire was on a downward trajectory for 5 years, then fired. His softball hires aren't working out great (that is just the other sport I have on top of my head as a sport where I know he made hires). Open to hearing any other successful hires he has had, but it seems like his basic track record is great football hire, didn't screw up hockey, and the other ones have us moving in the wrong direction. If the argument is football and hockey revenue are so important, that those two hires make him a solid AD, I can listen to that, but the entire body of his hiring and extension decisions certainly don't make me feel confident that he is making the next hire in any given sport where a vacancy occurs.

Don't bother to listen but an AD's value in hiring coaches goes like this in the Big Ten: football = 100; basketball = 30; hockey = 20; all other coaches combined = 5. If the women's' softball coach develops good character and doesn't win a game, it's a good hire.

 

[Dakota2]

I"ve been pretty adamant around here that Ben Johnson should be given a 3rd year but I would have a hard time saying he deserves a 4th season if he doesn't do better than 6-14 in the conference next year. Assuming a 9-2 non-conference record with that and you're looking at a 15-16 regular season.

It's quite possible to think that Ben's 3rd season should be better than his 4th if all of the critical pieces return next season. Assuming Battle and Cooper return next season, that will be their last year of eligibility and it's quite possible, even probable, that Garcia would not return for a 5th year. I would assume that this year's freshmen would take a jump between this year and next year but there may not be as much of a jump after that.

Too many assumptions (guesses). Nobody, including Coyle can look ahead a year and say X number of wins is required. Nobody knows who will be on the team.

Coyle will evaluate week-by-week this spring, summer, and throughout next year. It will give him plenty of time to also see what options are viable.

 

[kg21]

The barn is empty. It's a big revenue sport.

Doesn't this play a factor?

 

[skiumah1]

I honestly don't know on the first question. I hate using Wins as the sole metric, there's a lot more that goes into it than that. But right now it looks like an unmitigated grease fire, they are both a poorly constructed roster and poorly coached. That's not a good look, at all.

It's really, Really HARD to lose at the level they are losing. Losing 16 out of 18 conference games is f'ng hard to do.

I really don't know what the answer is, I've never been a "fire the coach" guy. After it happens (Brew, Claeys, Pitino, et al), I'm okay with it and can accept it but for me it's not the immediate knee-jerk reaction it easily is for some.

The problem in this case, Ben just looks over his head in pretty much all aspects of what it is to run a B1G program. And the REAL problem is, what evidence do we have at this point that it will change with another 1, 2, 3 years?

You're talking about him being ok going 5-15 or 6-14 in the conference next season. That's another last place or near last place finish. That could put his overall record against B1G teams somewhere around 11-50 in 3 years. That's not going to work no matter how you slice it.

He needs to be at minimum a bubble team next year which means 9 or 10 wins in the B1G, with a lot of hope for that to improve in year 4.

It's probably wishful thinking on my part, but I have this feeling that Coyle might have something up his sleeve yet after this season completes.

Pikiell and Hoibergs first 3 years. Both looked lost and terrible.

The clear counter-argument is that both of these guys had already built winning programs in the past. But Coyle is the one who hired Ben to be a BT coach, so why wouldn't he believe that Ben can do the same as what other Big 10 coaches can do? Regardless of their backgrounds.

To make it clear, I'm fine with a coaching change. But I just want to present what we've seen from others at a similar level to us. I wouldn't expect one. And I still think Ben could do well.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

View attachment 24379View attachment 24380

Pikiell and Hoibergs first 3 years. Both looked lost and terrible.

The clear counter-argument is that both of these guys had already built winning programs in the past. But Coyle is the one who hired Ben to be a BT coach, so why wouldn't he believe that Ben can do the same as what other Big 10 coaches can do? Regardless of their backgrounds.

To make it clear, I'm fine with a coaching change. But I just want to present what we've seen from others at a similar level to us. I wouldn't expect one. And I still think Ben could do well.

Pikiell's defensive improvement just in his first 2 years has been discussed ad nauseam on this board. There was plenty of reason for hope there beyond just W/L's. Ben's teams aren't good at anything.

I've said before that I would have moved on from Hoiberg after last season. His little run at the end of this season doesn't change my opinion much. He hates recruiting.

I remember not long ago when Minnesota was considered a much better program than Nebraska or Rutgers, and Northwestern and Penn St, and now we're trying to lower our standards to their level in the name of 'hope'. Another really bad sign.

 

[bmb5270]

That's a terrible response by Coyle- unless he plans on firing Ben. I think that would be a mistake at this moment. I think Ben and his younger players need another year. If he plans on keeping Ben, he should have said great things about Ben and that he is making progress despite a tough year. An ADs job should be to be all in with a coach until the moment he fires him.

Does anyone know what the "5 pillars" are at the U?

Beans, bacon, whiskey, and lard. Oh wait, no that’s my four pillars of my diet.

 

[Dakota2]

I don't think that's the proper use of the expression. Coyle is allowed to make mistakes, like we all do at work, but the expectation is that when the mistake is realized, corrective action follows.

Firing Johnson would be the corrective action.

For reference, the expression is bold would apply to something like wanting a home run hire but pay the same as Ben makes. You know, a situation where things are inversely related to each other, is how you use that expression.

The decision is not to fire or keep Johnson. The decision is who is the best coach I can get without creating a harmful lapse/no coach. Right now the best option is Ben because he is under contract.

 

[Dakota2]

Where is wingspan on that list?

If winning is 5th why is everyone complaining?

 

[skiumah1]

Pikiell's defensive improvement just in his first 2 years has been discussed ad nauseam on this board. There was plenty of reason for hope there beyond just W/L's. Ben's teams aren't good at anything.

I've said before that I would have moved on from Hoiberg after last season. His little run at the end of this season doesn't change my opinion much. He hates recruiting.

I remember not long ago when Minnesota was considered a much better program than Nebraska or Rutgers, and Northwestern and Penn St, and now we're trying to lower our standards to their level in the name of 'hope'. Another really bad sign.

I agree we've really lowered the bar. I notice this in myself as well. It was an underwhelming hire so I'm adjusting my expectations based on it.

But really what was Coyle expecting from Ben? I can't imagine it was much better than this after 2 years.

It seemed like a hire where he was willing to give Ben time to get the MN kids in here, and he's doing that. Of course that is going to take time. If I was Ben and Coyle let me go after this year, I'd say "what the hell"? "I'm putting the plan in place that we talked about." What does Coyle say? "Yeah I made a mistake and I'm going in a different direction"? That's a terrible way to operate professionally.

Does that mean Ben is going to have NCAA tournament type success once he's established his program? Absolutely not.

Would I much rather have Dutcher or Smith on the sideline starting the 23-24 season? Yes. But that doesn't seem like a reality so I'd like to support Ben for now. Hope is not all lost for me yet.

It was a massive stretch of a hire from the start, but here we are.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

I agree we've really lowered the bar. I notice this in myself as well. It was an underwhelming hire so I'm adjusting my expectations based on it.

But really what was Coyle expecting from Ben? I can't imagine it was much better than this after 2 years.

I disagree with this. There's no way Coyle thought the Gophers would be historically bad the first 2 years. I believe Ben was hired with the intention of giving him time, but that was under the thinking he'd show some sort of competent coaching ability, which he hasn't.

If Ben was just able to match the 6-14 record Pitino last had the first two years, while having recruiting success, then that would lengthen the leash. But none of that has happened and he has failed to clear that very low bar.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I agree we've really lowered the bar. I notice this in myself as well. It was an underwhelming hire so I'm adjusting my expectations based on it.

But really what was Coyle expecting from Ben? I can't imagine it was much better than this after 2 years.

It seemed like a hire where he was willing to give Ben time to get the MN kids in here, and he's doing that. Of course that is going to take time. If I was Ben and Coyle let me go after this year, I'd say "what the hell"? "I'm putting the plan in place that we talked about." What does Coyle say? "Yeah I made a mistake and I'm going in a different direction"? That's a terrible way to operate professionally.

Does that mean Ben is going to have NCAA tournament type success once he's established his program? Absolutely not.

Would I much rather have Dutcher or Smith on the sideline starting the 23-24 season? Yes. But that doesn't seem like a reality so I'd like to support Ben for now. Hope is not all lost for me yet.

It was a massive stretch of a hire from the start, but here we are.

Similar to Whalen, I think recruiting is going decently for Ben, especially when you consider how little substance he has to sell. That was the same for her. Kudos to both.

But it's about way more than recruiting, and I wonder if even Coyle knows this. If he does, why hire such an inexperienced guy? Recruiting aside, all the problems we've seen are exactly what one would expect from hiring an inexperienced person and loading him up with one of the most challenging jobs on the planet. All those things are what's killing us now. If Coyle or anyone here thinks that all you have to do is recruit and hire Dave Thorson and everything will take care of itself, they have another thing coming.

 

[Crappie]

I can get your point. But that was year 8 I believe for Pitino. If we hadn't already known he couldn't get it done, we sure as hell knew in year 8. There was no more building. And 5 of those years were with Coyle.

Ben we don't actually know the ceiling through 2 years. To me, he can still build and improve. The question then becomes how much time will Coyle give him to reach that ceiling? And how much progress needs to be made every year?

How many more years do you give him?

 

[skiumah1]

I disagree with this. There's no way Coyle thought the Gophers would be historically bad the first 2 years. I believe Ben was hired with the intention of giving him time, but that was under the thinking he'd show some sort of competent coaching ability, which he hasn't.

If Ben was just able to match the 6-14 record Pitino last had the first two years, while having recruiting success, then that would lengthen the leash. But none of that has happened and he has failed to clear that very low bar.

Why would he expect that though? Maybe we don't want to compare ourselves to Nebraska and Rutgers, but truthfully I don't think we're that much different at this point. Pikiell and Hoiberg each had 3 wins in their 2nd year. Why would Ben do much / any better than that?

My main point is that I don't think Ben has done anything that Coyle shoudn't have expected at this point. That is where we will disagree I guess. This also leads me to believe Ben will likely get at least 4 years if they show any type of progress next year.

Coyle also extended Ben a year after year 1 so I'd imagine he thought they were better than they should've been. Should also be noted this was foolish due to the vast majority being 1 and done.

 

[skiumah1]

How many more years do you give him?

Good question. I'm ready to pull the shoot if we're at 4 Big 10 wins or less next year.

If we're at 5-6, it's that "uncomfortable spot" that @Bad Gopher mentioned.

7-8+ and he's got a 4th for sure.

 

[Gopherfan84]

The barn is empty. It's a big revenue sport.

Doesn't this play a factor?

Not as much with TV money.

 

[Crappie]

Not as much with TV money.

No need for fans at the game eh jacks?

 

[Ogee Ogilthorpe]

Not as much with TV money.

An empty Barn is f'ng devastating for recruiting. It's an absolute disaster

 

[Crappie]

An empty Barn is f'ng devastating for recruiting. It's an absolute disaster

No need for fans in the stands. Tv money coming.

 

[MNVCGUY]

This could easily be true.

I'm just wondering why you think that's so obvious.

Is your answer along the lines of "Coyle was always going to get to pick his own coach", or some other reason?

Claeys only became the coach because Kill "retired". Coyle being new to the U of M was not going to saddle himself with a first year head coach who really wasn't qualified to be a head coach on many fronts.

And I don't say that to be mean to Claeys, he was a hell of a DC, but look at his career since he left here, the guy just isn't a head coach. Many guys aren't suited for that job.

So yeah, Coyle was going to make a change after the 2016 season pretty much regardless of how things went. I mean had the team won the Big Ten or something like that it might have changed things but I never thought for one second that Claeys was going to be anything more than a one year stop gap fill in.

Some fans will get hung up on things the AD or coach says in a press conference but you would think by now people would know you can't put much stock in anything said in those situations. It might be accurate or it might just be blowing smoke.

 

[WilliamsArenaGuy]

I'm so sick of the Pikiell comparisons like we should be patient with Johnson because Pikiell got better.

A. Rutgers is an OK program right now. They aren't that good. They play hard and have had a mediocre level of success (which is an improvement for them). I would hope our aspirations are higher than reaching current Rutgers levels. Pitino was already at or above their level anyway, and we fired him.

B. Even in what is a good year for Rutgers, with their season on the line, who did they just lose to? A 1-16 Minnesota team...


We can do a lot better than Pikiell and Rutgers.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

My main point is that I don't think Ben has done anything that Coyle shoudn't have expected at this point. That is where we will disagree I guess. This also leads me to believe Ben will likely get at least 4 years if they show any type of progress next year.

I think nearly everyone expected better than 6-33 against the B1G to date.

 

[skiumah1]

I think nearly everyone expected better than 6-33 against the B1G to date.

Fair enough. Trying find some way to get behind Ben here. But it's true, it's awful.

We'll see what happens.

 

[skiumah1]

We can do a lot better than Pikiell and Rutgers.

I would agree. Unfortunately with Ben at the helm it's unlikely we even get to that level.

We have lived at the bottom of the Big 10 lately. The brand isn't looking too great right now.

 

[Gophers_4life]

Claeys only became the coach because Kill "retired". Coyle being new to the U of M was not going to saddle himself with a first year head coach who really wasn't qualified to be a head coach on many fronts.

Hmm.

First year head coach, who wasn't really qualified to be a head coach on many fronts.

Boy that sure sounds like someone we all know, who Coyle did hire ...

And I don't say that to be mean to Claeys, he was a hell of a DC, but look at his career since he left here, the guy just isn't a head coach. Many guys aren't suited for that job.

So yeah, Coyle was going to make a change after the 2016 season pretty much regardless of how things went. I mean had the team won the Big Ten or something like that it might have changed things but I never thought for one second that Claeys was going to be anything more than a one year stop gap fill in.

Some fans will get hung up on things the AD or coach says in a press conference but you would think by now people would know you can't put much stock in anything said in those situations. It might be accurate or it might just be blowing smoke.

Fair enough, thanks