Let's slow down on the Fire PJ Chatter

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MZBKA1 said:
If we were Wisconsin, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Iowa, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Michigan, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Penn State, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Nebraska, we'd fire Fleck.
But we're Minnesota. And we are just fine with a losing record in year 7 of Fleck's tenure. We're just fine with Fleck having the worst Big 10 recruiting class of 2022. We're just fine knowing that 2024 and 2025 will likely result in even worse records and continued bottom-tier recruiting under Fleck.
And that is why we will continue to lose. It's why we haven't had any type of championship since before most of us were born. Because other Big 10 teams expect more from their teams than we do.
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I'm not so sure if that's accurate.

Sometimes a coach has a down year. You mentioned Iowa and Wisconsin. Ferentz had a four win season in 2012, Barry Alvarez had a couple down years between his success. They were given the chance to keep coaching and bounce back, which they did.

Even recently, Brian Kelly had a down year with four wins in 2016 at Notre Dame. Mark Dantonio also had a down season that same year at Michigan State with three wins. Both bounced back the next year with 10 victories.

I'm not saying all this as a way to make it seem like Fleck is the long term answer. I think his seat should certainly be hot. But I think he's done enough to earn himself a down season. He does have to make some changes for sure, though. Hopefully this is a wake up call.
 

Spoofin said:
You should read Ryan Burns’ take on blaming the OC (again). He makes some great points.
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Yeah, I honestly can't say our problems are the OC's fault. I think there's just so much that breaks down when you can't complete a forward pass, it's hard to even know if it's a good offense.

Start with getting a capable QB. That said, if we can lure a proven OC, I'm all for it.
 

Sure people want him gone- however his strongest supporters use excuses like coordinators, system, NIL, recruiting and the portal. PJ has 100% control over all of these. If anyone is not expecting 8+ wins every year you are living in a world of mediocrity. Do any of you live your life being below average? Let’s set expectations and strive to actually succeed every season.
 

Fleck is annoyed and has to make some changes in his program. He’s allowed the media and paper clippings to affect him which is a sign the end is near if he can’t change quickly.

He’ll be out if next year is like this year.
 



Maroon1992 said:
Sure people want him gone- however his strongest supporters use excuses like coordinators, system, NIL, recruiting and the portal. PJ has 100% control over all of these. If anyone is not expecting 8+ wins every year you are living in a world of mediocrity. Do any of you live your life being below average? Let’s set expectations and strive to actually succeed every season.
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PJ doesn't have 100% control over NIL. We don't have a booster system worthy of respect. I think we are still trying to pay off the Athletes Village. I'm sure he has a little influence over the tiny amount of NIL money that's available.

NIL has made CFB a free-agency market. We are small potatoes in that landscape!
 

GridironGus said:
I think 2024 could be rough, maybe only 4 wins. But I would let 2025 play out before even thinking of making a change. That's my opinion.
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When we lower expectations we keep just adding on years that maybe will be better.

Conversely- if we assume next year or more will stink why wouldn’t Coyle just make the switch.

Personally I expect them to get back on track. Finishing worst in the division is unacceptable this year and I expect to be at minimum 5-4 in conference and have that be the lowest bar to cross over.
 

OddStack said:
PJ doesn't have 100% control over NIL. We don't have a booster system worthy of respect. I think we are still trying to pay off the Athletes Village. I'm sure he has a little influence over the tiny amount of NIL money that's available.

NIL has made CFB a free-agency market. We are small potatoes in that landscape!
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PJ has a lot of influence on boosters just by speaking to them and giving them hope and also educate why fundraising for NIL important. Also, PJ I am guessing makes more than 99% of anyone on GH- is there anywhere it says a coach can not donate to the DinkyTown Athletes fund?
 

Maroon1992 said:
PJ has a lot of influence on boosters just by speaking to them and giving them hope and also educate why fundraising for NIL important. Also, PJ I am guessing makes more than 99% of anyone on GH- is there anywhere it says a coach can not donate to the DinkyTown Athletes fund?
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I kind of wonder if he is the "anonymous" donor that we have had the last several years giving away $4,000 a game to students for scholarships
 



OddStack said:
PJ doesn't have 100% control over NIL. We don't have a booster system worthy of respect. I think we are still trying to pay off the Athletes Village. I'm sure he has a little influence over the tiny amount of NIL money that's available.

NIL has made CFB a free-agency market. We are small potatoes in that landscape!
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5 years ago everyone would have said PJ is the ideal coach and personality to lead a program into NIL.
 

Maroon1992 said:
PJ has a lot of influence on boosters just by speaking to them and giving them hope and also educate why fundraising for NIL important. Also, PJ I am guessing makes more than 99% of anyone on GH- is there anywhere it says a coach can not donate to the DinkyTown Athletes fund?
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"A lot of influence" is not 100%. Also, PJ makes $6M. Jordan Addison went from Pitt to USC for $3.5M....let PJ donate and we are still small potatoes!!!!!
 

Anyone know how many “firsts” the Gophers had this year?
 

Word said:
Yeah, I honestly can't say our problems are the OC's fault. I think there's just so much that breaks down when you can't complete a forward pass, it's hard to even know if it's a good offense.

Start with getting a capable QB. That said, if we can lure a proven OC, I'm all for it.
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Yep, it’s chicken/egg.

My one concern with solely blaming the players is whether the coaches are effective at, you know, coaching. Looking back over the decades I had good and bad coaches, good and bad teachers and professors. I’ve had several invaluable mentors that made me see, understand, change or act at critical moments.

More recently, my kid’s soccer coach this year is…less than great. All season the same mistakes are made in-game resulting in ranting and raving yet I don’t see things addressed in practice. They talk about it but they don’t scrimmage it. Not effective, and head-scratching. The team has effectively quit on the guy but he doesn’t recognize it.

All of this to say if talent isn’t being recognized, recruited, coached up effectively maybe it isn’t all on Athan or any of the others. Maybe churning coaches yearly is a problem. Maybe the frenetic practices are counterproductive. What are they doing with fixing issues on the practice field. Are his coaches any good??
 



MZBKA1 said:
If we were Wisconsin, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Iowa, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Michigan, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Penn State, we'd fire Fleck.
If we were Nebraska, we'd fire Fleck.
But we're Minnesota. And we are just fine with a losing record in year 7 of Fleck's tenure. We're just fine with Fleck having the worst Big 10 recruiting class of 2022. We're just fine knowing that 2024 and 2025 will likely result in even worse records and continued bottom-tier recruiting under Fleck.
And that is why we will continue to lose. It's why we haven't had any type of championship since before most of us were born. Because other Big 10 teams expect more from their teams than we do.
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What a load of bs. You don’t fire the most successful coach we have had here since the 60s after one 5 win season.

Anyone on the fire the coach bandwagon is being foolish.
 

MNVCGUY said:
What a load of bs. You don’t fire the most successful coach we have had here since the 60s after one 5 win season.

Anyone on the fire the coach bandwagon is being foolish.
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Agreed at this point, however if next year starts out say 2-6, with a gut wrenching loss or 2, I say nothing is off the table.
 

Texan Gopher said:
Firing PJ Fleck is ridiculous.

Expecting Fleck to actually change his "tressel ball" mindset should be the mantra he and his staff take on.

It's 2024 with NIL $, transfer portals, and a completely different playbook for what offenses do than in 2005, he HAS to change.

You can win a lot of games with tressel ball when you have top tier talent at all positions....Georgia, Michigan, etc. when you have 2 and 3 star kids, you can't simply line up and out athlete the other team, which Is Tressel ball.

We need 3 things to be a good team...

A QB that can actually read progressions and knows when to run and when to throw. AK sucks. I mean he really really sucks. He play nervous and robotic. He is a major problem.

WRs that have some speed. We need speed. Yes, the offensive system we run is offensive to modern day offenses, but if we are going to keep the system, we need speed to make it work.

Our OL and DL got outmuscled the entire year. Honestly reminded me.of when we would play FCS schools back in the day. It was 2 completely different levels of players in the field. We looked like the FCS school in almost all the games this year. Fucking embarrassing.

Do we make those changes ? No clue.

But, if we go 5-7 again next year, the HC seat will be 🔥🔥🔥
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The beginning of 3-9 seasons start next season.
 

to me - this is the most important aspect of the Coaching conversation:

the world of college Football has undergone significant change in recent years. The Portal - NIL - major conference realignment.

So the situation Fleck is in today is NOT the situation that he was hired into 7 years ago.

the approach that may have been fine 7 years ago may not be fine today after all of the changes.

SO - Can Fleck Adapt? Can he adjust his approach and his philosophy to the new reality of college Football in 2023?

and I see concerning signs. Fleck this season more than ever has talked - or some might say complained - about the changes in college FB. A fair assumption could be made that he does not like how things have changed.

But if you run a business, it's your job to adapt and adjust to changing conditions. as the CEO of Gopher Football, it is Fleck's job to adapt and adjust to the changing conditions in college Football.

can he adapt? that is the question that Fleck has to answer.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
to me - this is the most important aspect of the Coaching conversation:

the world of college Football has undergone significant change in recent years. The Portal - NIL - major conference realignment.

So the situation Fleck is in today is NOT the situation that he was hired into 7 years ago.

the approach that may have been fine 7 years ago may not be fine today after all of the changes.

SO - Can Fleck Adapt? Can he adjust his approach and his philosophy to the new reality of college Football in 2023?

and I see concerning signs. Fleck this season more than ever has talked - or some might say complained - about the changes in college FB. A fair assumption could be made that he does not like how things have changed.

But if you run a business, it's your job to adapt and adjust to changing conditions. as the CEO of Gopher Football, it is Fleck's job to adapt and adjust to the changing conditions in college Football.

can he adapt? that is the question that Fleck has to answer.
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Spot on. I agree 100%
 

Word said:
Yeah, I honestly can't say our problems are the OC's fault. I think there's just so much that breaks down when you can't complete a forward pass, it's hard to even know if it's a good offense.

Start with getting a capable QB. That said, if we can lure a proven OC, I'm all for it.
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The offensive gameplan this year was, well, offensive. Horrifyingly simple, predictable and super easy to defend.
 

One ongoing concern for me has been the tone of his interviews this year. I would expect someone in a head coaching role to have the attitude after a season like this of "we got kicked in the teeth this year, and I do not intend to let that happen again next year." Instead it sounds like a lot of "woe is me" and laying the groundwork for excuses next year.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Based on PJ'S results to date, firing him would be ridiculous. We are coming off a stretch that produced an 11 win season that was the best in recent history using even a very broad definition of "recent." We followed that up with a disappointing but not catastrophic 3-4 B1G only season, then recovered with back to back 9 win seasons. That made for the best 4 year stretch that most living gopher fans have ever seen. This was a pretty awful year, but not so bad as to justify pulling the trigger on that basis alone. If next year is as bad as this, I think it becomes a much more fair argument for firing.

The above being said, coming into this year, most would just roll their eye and ignore the rare (but loud) calls for firing PJ. Now it feels like it people feel the need to respond. That the fire Fleck calls seem to require rebuttal doesn't bode well for the direction he's heading.
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I think a big part is the instant gratification world we now live in. Patience, understanding, and reason have been replaced with a belief that if something is broken and it can't be fixed immediately, you throw it away and buy a new toy. Throw in other factors like the portal and NIL, and were basically doomed to this new reality. I think it's a small snapshot of our society and culture at large and a harbinger of the end of the American experiment. Everything is disposable, including people, and fewer and fewer people are calling for reason and instead demanding change when a reasonable person looking at the big picture would see that change is likely more chaotic and damaging than trying to stay the course.🤷
 

Dakota2 said:
Simply points out there was a guy who was unknown to most of us six months ago who, when given a chance, proved to be a better football coach than Fleck. It further points out there are a lot of coaches in the ranks who might well be better than Fleck if given the opportunity.

Fleck is well known now. He is limited by cultish belief in shortening the game and avoiding risk. He has yet to give any indication he is open to personal change.
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Lol how did he prove to be a better football coach?
 

Maroon1992 said:
Sure people want him gone- however his strongest supporters use excuses like coordinators, system, NIL, recruiting and the portal. PJ has 100% control over all of these. If anyone is not expecting 8+ wins every year you are living in a world of mediocrity. Do any of you live your life being below average? Let’s set expectations and strive to actually succeed every season.
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You can expect 8+ wins a year, you’ll never achieve that if you fire a coach every time he fails to for a year.
 


Based on Fleck's results, keeping him is ridiculous.
 

Tech Machine said:
Agreed at this point, however if next year starts out say 2-6, with a gut wrenching loss or 2, I say nothing is off the table.
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Yep.....if 2024 is similar to 2023 you start to have some conversations about Fleck's future with the program. But it would be crazy not to give him the opportunity to fix the issues from this year and get the team back on track.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
can he adapt? that is the question that Fleck has to answer.
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That is the million doallar question. But he has to be given the chance to adjust and show he can compete in this new landscape. No way to hide or sugarcoat a season like the one we just had. It will be on Fleck to make sure it doesn't happen again in 2024.
 


Is he still eating difficult conversations for breakfast? Hard to tell nowadays… might need a bib in the morning..
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
Based on PJ'S results to date, firing him would be ridiculous. We are coming off a stretch that produced an 11 win season that was the best in recent history using even a very broad definition of "recent." We followed that up with a disappointing but not catastrophic 3-4 B1G only season, then recovered with back to back 9 win seasons. That made for the best 4 year stretch that most living gopher fans have ever seen. This was a pretty awful year, but not so bad as to justify pulling the trigger on that basis alone. If next year is as bad as this, I think it becomes a much more fair argument for firing.

The above being said, coming into this year, most would just roll their eye and ignore the rare (but loud) calls for firing PJ. Now it feels like it people feel the need to respond. That the fire Fleck calls seem to require rebuttal doesn't bode well for the direction he's heading.
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No need to rebutt something that is not remotely happening. Fleck will be HC next year unless he leaves at his own choosing.

I’m seeing legitimate complaints about Fleck on GH, not people seriously saying he should or will be fired.
 

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