lemons from lemonade- Kill/Claeys/Teague

[Winnipegopher]

Right now, Minnesota has a national spotlight. Everyone, minus Souhan, has handled this very well and really humanized the program. If (and this is a big if), Claeys/Kill can win 3 or so, this will be one of big stories nationally. In fact this could lead to a stronger program in the end.

If not, there is something to be said for losing with some humanity, especially in the cesspool of D-1 football.

PS Changing coaches every three-four years is not the answer. If Kill cannot coach, let's hand the keys to Claeys. These guys came as a group, let's let them finish as a group.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

That might be the worst reason ever to "hand the keys over" to a program. Claeys has never been a head coach at a collegiate program on ANY level and you want to have him take over a Big Ten team? You know, I've always been somewhat confounded about Kill supporter's undying support, but this goes beyond any sort of rational thinking.

 

[Dr.Don]

That might be the worst reason ever to "hand the keys over" to a program. Claeys has never been a head coach at a collegiate program on ANY level and you want to have him take over a Big Ten team? You know, I've always been somewhat confounded about Kill supporter's undying support, but this goes beyond any sort of rational thinking.

As does your comment.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

As does your comment.

Great reply...tell me how I'm wrong with my assessment, though.

 

[Winnipegopher]

That might be the worst reason ever to "hand the keys over" to a program. Claeys has never been a head coach at a collegiate program on ANY level and you want to have him take over a Big Ten team? You know, I've always been somewhat confounded about Kill supporter's undying support, but this goes beyond any sort of rational thinking.

I am not a huge Kill supporter. I am realistic though. Gophers have put three years into the Kill program. Let's see if it works before burning it down. I don't want to start a complete rebuild next year that, as experience shows us, is not likely to work.

 

[Rog]

Thats my point

Having Kill around in some fashion as he is a vital part of the group

.

PS Changing coaches every three-four years is not the answer. If Kill cannot coach, let's hand the keys to Claeys. These guys came as a group, let's let them finish as a group.[/QUOTE]

 

[ruppertflywheel]

Money never sleeps. If Kill leaves for whatever reason you brake the bank and hire a " name " coach.
A coach that doesn't need 5 years to start winning. We've tried going cheap and look where we were and where we are now. Maturi said he couldn't get a sniff from a top shelf coach. Well no kidding when your offer is 2 million a year.

 

[tato2001]

Money never sleeps. If Kill leaves for whatever reason you brake the bank and hire a " name " coach.
A coach that doesn't need 5 years to start winning. We've tried going cheap and look where we were and where we are now. Maturi said he couldn't get a sniff from a top shelf coach. Well no kidding when your offer is 2 million a year.

I used to be of the opinion that the folks who said Minnesota will have a hard time getting a 'name' coach because of negative perceptions of the program were off base. I've since concluded they are right. Take a look at history. NO coach at Minnesota has gone on to coach ANYWHERE as a head coach after their stint with the Gophers since LOU HOLTZ (Horton, Brewster, Mason, Wacker, Gutekunst, don't think I missed one). I am now pretty convinced that the word on the street is that Minnesota is where head coaching careers go to die.

The only way we get a 'name' coach is if they have baggage. Or we offer WAY above the market rate. Above the TOP market rate.

We got a guy like Kill (a roll of the dice on an up-and-comer) because that's our most realistic option of growing out of the mess that is the Gophers football program. Considering that, Kill was a pretty good hire. The health issues are the risk we have taken. If Kill is unable/unwilling to continue, expect another shot at an up and comer. Not saying Bohl, but someone like that. The b-ball hire of Pitino is the model to think of.

 

[Coolew01]

I used to be of the opinion that the folks who said Minnesota will have a hard time getting a 'name' coach because of negative perceptions of the program were off base. I've since concluded they are right. Take a look at history. NO coach at Minnesota has gone on to coach ANYWHERE as a head coach after their stint with the Gophers since LOU HOLTZ (Horton, Brewster, Mason, Wacker, Gutekunst, don't think I missed one). I am now pretty convinced that the word on the street is that Minnesota is where head coaching careers go to die.

The only way we get a 'name' coach is if they have baggage. Or we offer WAY above the market rate. Above the TOP market rate.

We got a guy like Kill (a roll of the dice on an up-and-comer) because that's our most realistic option of growing out of the mess that is the Gophers football program. Considering that, Kill was a pretty good hire. The health issues are the risk we have taken. If Kill is unable/unwilling to continue, expect another shot at an up and comer. Not saying Bohl, but someone like that. The b-ball hire of Pitino is the model to think of.

Well put

 

[Sports_Realist]

Even though Mason never got a gig after the Gophers, I think he had the chance to do so in the 2008-09 range had he wanted it. Despite the ill feeling when he left, and while he was still here in the later years, with the program plateauing, he got the Gophers into bowl games in seven of his final eight seasons here. Most Gopher fans as late as 1998 would have thought such a thing was impossible. Previously he went into bad situations at Kent State and Kansas and won. I believe that had Mason's ego allowed him to take a job at a Pitt, Iowa State or Mountain West level program, he'd have entered the mix. Since Mason had his sights set on bigger jobs that weren't coming his way, he effectively retired.

 

[GopherGod]

Money never sleeps. If Kill leaves for whatever reason you brake the bank and hire a " name " coach.
A coach that doesn't need 5 years to start winning. We've tried going cheap and look where we were and where we are now. Maturi said he couldn't get a sniff from a top shelf coach. Well no kidding when your offer is 2 million a year.

Minnesota cannot compete on salary with any of the top jobs, much less beat them.

 

[Iceland12]

I used to be of the opinion that the folks who said Minnesota will have a hard time getting a 'name' coach because of negative perceptions of the program were off base. I've since concluded they are right. Take a look at history. NO coach at Minnesota has gone on to coach ANYWHERE as a head coach after their stint with the Gophers since LOU HOLTZ (Horton, Brewster, Mason, Wacker, Gutekunst, don't think I missed one). I am now pretty convinced that the word on the street is that Minnesota is where head coaching careers go to die.

The only way we get a 'name' coach is if they have baggage. Or we offer WAY above the market rate. Above the TOP market rate.

We got a guy like Kill (a roll of the dice on an up-and-comer) because that's our most realistic option of growing out of the mess that is the Gophers football program. Considering that, Kill was a pretty good hire. The health issues are the risk we have taken. If Kill is unable/unwilling to continue, expect another shot at an up and comer. Not saying Bohl, but someone like that. The b-ball hire of Pitino is the model to think of.

That seems pretty reasonable.

Despite "the sky is falling/haters", find it doubtful that an available Head Coach in 2010 would have found a 4-5 year contract for 8-10 million as a non-competitive college offer. The guys on here always seem to find ways the U can spend tens of millions of dollars while complaining about an spending a extra couple of bucks themselves on...anything.

On Head Coaches here not moving on to another H.C. job you're right, with a caveat on Mason. He's indicated and some Media Guys have confirmed that he's had offers, just not at BCS type schools.

Another interesting note, while those Head Coaches haven't had offers, some of their Assistants have. Memory and a quick Google search finds Sumlin, Withers, DeBesse, Jim Zorn, Jim Strong and of course Cory Sauter, who was named Head Coach at SW Minnesota State in 2010!

You have back to the guy before Holtz to get the most successful former Assistant Coach of the last 35 years. Mike Shanahan was Salem's Offensive Coordinator in 1979.

 

[tato2001]

Even though Mason never got a gig after the Gophers, I think he had the chance to do so in the 2008-09 range had he wanted it. Despite the ill feeling when he left, and while he was still here in the later years, with the program plateauing, he got the Gophers into bowl games in seven of his final eight seasons here. Most Gopher fans as late as 1998 would have thought such a thing was impossible. Previously he went into bad situations at Kent State and Kansas and won. I believe that had Mason's ego allowed him to take a job at a Pitt, Iowa State or Mountain West level program, he'd have entered the mix. Since Mason had his sights set on bigger jobs that weren't coming his way, he effectively retired.

That's probably true. But what does it say to the 'next Mason'? Those moves wouldn't have been ones that Mason would have liked at that point in his career (effectively demotions). I.E., his stint with Minnesota didn't leave him well positioned to make another upward move, and no one else's experience has either since Lou Holtz. That's the problem. Our candidates are going to have to be people that effectively can't say 'no' to the job. Doesn't mean they are losers, just means that it's a clear promotion, and/or a big raise, because they certainly aren't coming here for the program. I.E. Jerry Kill and Richard Pitino. We're gonna have to take risks and find a diamond in the rough.

EDIT: WHEN we have another coaching search. Hopefully that won't be for a long time. I'm pessimistic about Coach Kill's long-term prospects due to the health issues, but I'm certainly hoping it works out. Starting over is NOT something I look forward to.

 

[50PoundHead]

That seems pretty reasonable.

Despite "the sky is falling/haters", find it doubtful that an available Head Coach in 2010 would have found a 4-5 year contract for 8-10 million as a non-competitive college offer. The guys on here always seem to find ways the U can spend tens of millions of dollars while complaining about an spending a extra couple of bucks themselves on...anything.

On Head Coaches here not moving on to another H.C. job you're right, with a caveat on Mason. He's indicated and some Media Guys have confirmed that he's had offers, just not at BCS type schools.

Another interesting note, while those Head Coaches haven't had offers, some of their Assistants have. Memory and a quick Google search finds Sumlin, Withers, DeBesse, Jim Zorn, Jim Strong and of course Cory Sauter, who was named Head Coach at SW Minnesota State in 2010!

You have back to the guy before Holtz to get the most successful former Assistant Coach of the last 35 years. Mike Shanahan was Salem's Offensive Coordinator in 1979.

Joker Phillips coached here under Mason as well.

 

[NateDawgUM]

That might be the worst reason ever to "hand the keys over" to a program. Claeys has never been a head coach at a collegiate program on ANY level and you want to have him take over a Big Ten team? You know, I've always been somewhat confounded about Kill supporter's undying support, but this goes beyond any sort of rational thinking.

Mark Helfrich at Oregon has never been a head coach at ANY level. His Ducks are #2 in the country. He was a coordinator last year, knows the system and fit right into Chip Kelly's place. Oregon hasn't skipped a beat.

Bret Bielema had never been a head coach before he started at Wisconsin, but he knew the system and the program. He won 3 conference titles.

Yet you're preaching "rational thinking."

This place gets dumber and dumber every time I log in.

 

[Great Plains Gopher]

Mark Helfrich at Oregon has never been a head coach at ANY level. His Ducks are #2 in the country. He was a coordinator last year, knows the system and fit right into Chip Kelly's place. Oregon hasn't skipped a beat.

Bret Bielema had never been a head coach before he started at Wisconsin, but he knew the system and the program. He won 3 conference titles.

Yet you're preaching "rational thinking."

This place gets dumber and dumber every time I log in.

Excellent points!

 

[OddStack]

That might be the worst reason ever to "hand the keys over" to a program. Claeys has never been a head coach at a collegiate program on ANY level and you want to have him take over a Big Ten team? You know, I've always been somewhat confounded about Kill supporter's undying support, but this goes beyond any sort of rational thinking.

Too bad Wisconsin never handed keys over to an inexperienced, never been a HC at any level coach! If they did, they'd be the B1G doormat forever! Oh wait, they did his name was Barry Alvarez.

 

[MNGoldenGophers1]

Great reply...tell me how I'm wrong with my assessment, though.

Most if not all coaches at one time or another were assistants. Unlike a number of assistants, namely coordinators, who went on to become successful head coaches never served as interim head coach like Claeys has and is now doing. I think many people would argue Claeys does have head coaching experience and this experience is being conducted under very difficult circumstances. If Claeys can keep the boat on course, I would not be surprised to hear that other programs make a run at him to be their head coach. I sincerely hope Kill returns and Claeys sticks around long enough to take the reigns from Kill many years from now.

Go Gophers!

 

[Iceland12]

Mark Helfrich at Oregon has never been a head coach at ANY level. His Ducks are #2 in the country. He was a coordinator last year, knows the system and fit right into Chip Kelly's place. Oregon hasn't skipped a beat.

Bret Bielema had never been a head coach before he started at Wisconsin, but he knew the system and the program. He won 3 conference titles.

Yet you're preaching "rational thinking."

This place gets dumber and dumber every time I log in.

I think that both those guys took over programs that were already successful didn't they? They've had to keep their programs in the same shape that they got them.

Keeping the present Gopher program in the same shape they are right now does NOT sound very rational.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

I think that both those guys took over programs that were already successful didn't they? They've had to keep their programs in the same shape that they got them.

Keeping the present Gopher program in the same shape they are right now does NOT sound very rational.

Thanks Iceland...you beat me to the reply!

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

Too bad Wisconsin never handed keys over to an inexperienced, never been a HC at any level coach! If they did, they'd be the B1G doormat forever! Oh wait, they did his name was Barry Alvarez.

I would also like to say that in my original comment, my main point is that handing Claeys the keys simply because, "These guys came as a group, let's let them finish as a group." is a terrible reason to give him the HC job. All the examples...Helfrich, Bielema, and Alvaraz....were given the jobs because they were determined to be the best man for the job, not simply because "hey, he was already here."

 

[OddStack]

Diehard,

Do you think someone takes a job without having the determination to be and do their best? That, my friend, is irrational thinking or simply scary; I'm not sure which is more accurate!

 

[NateDawgUM]

I think that both those guys took over programs that were already successful didn't they? They've had to keep their programs in the same shape that they got them.

Keeping the present Gopher program in the same shape they are right now does NOT sound very rational.

Neither of those programs got successful by switching coaches every three years.

No coaching staff in HISTORY has built a program in 2 years and 6 games. Had some early success? Perhaps. Built a program? No way.

I think the collective IQ of our fan is lower than our 40 year Big Ten winning percentage. Perhaps we get what we deserve.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

Diehard,

Do you think someone takes a job without having the determination to be and do their best? That, my friend, is irrational thinking or simply scary; I'm not sure which is more accurate!

I'm not really sure where you got the impression that I think Claeys wouldn't be determined to do his best? My point is that if Kill is to never coach the U again, let's make sure that we hire the best guy we can to replace him...and if Claeys only qualification is "I was already here"...that to me is not nearly good enough.

 

[Sports_Realist]

That's probably true. But what does it say to the 'next Mason'? Those moves wouldn't have been ones that Mason would have liked at that point in his career (effectively demotions). I.E., his stint with Minnesota didn't leave him well positioned to make another upward move, and no one else's experience has either since Lou Holtz. That's the problem. Our candidates are going to have to be people that effectively can't say 'no' to the job. Doesn't mean they are losers, just means that it's a clear promotion, and/or a big raise, because they certainly aren't coming here for the program. I.E. Jerry Kill and Richard Pitino. We're gonna have to take risks and find a diamond in the rough.

EDIT: WHEN we have another coaching search. Hopefully that won't be for a long time. I'm pessimistic about Coach Kill's long-term prospects due to the health issues, but I'm certainly hoping it works out. Starting over is NOT something I look forward to.

Mason missed his window. The time to go was after 1999 , 2000 or 2003. For a variety of reasons (which jobs were open, the Ohio State desires, a feeling he could take Minnesota higher to either become the local coaching legend or parlay this job an even better one if he stood pat, etc...), he didn't go and by the time he was ousted, Mason was looking only at lateral moves. Instead of coaching a legacy program, he was seen as a work out specialist who was looking at lateral moves. That's not a bad fate. I just don't think that's what he wanted.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

Neither of those programs got successful by switching coaches every three years.

No coaching staff in HISTORY has built a program in 2 years and 6 games. Had some early success? Perhaps. Built a program? No way.

I think the collective IQ of our fan is lower than our 40 year Big Ten winning percentage. Perhaps we get what we deserve.

So by your logic, USC should automatically hire Ed Orgeron permanently to replace Lane Kiffin because the staff hasn't had enough time to build their program?

 

[Winnipegopher]

So by your logic, USC should automatically hire Ed Orgeron permanently to replace Lane Kiffin because the staff hasn't had enough time to build their program?

Kiffin was fired- even you should be able to see the difference between Kill and Kiffin.

 

[scools12]

Neither of those programs got successful by switching coaches every three years.

No coaching staff in HISTORY has built a program in 2 years and 6 games. Had some early success? Perhaps. Built a program? No way.

I think the collective IQ of our fan is lower than our 40 year Big Ten winning percentage. Perhaps we get what we deserve.

According to the biggest of Kill and staff supporters that is exactly what happened at Northern Illinois.

 

[Iceland12]

Neither of those programs got successful by switching coaches every three years.

No coaching staff in HISTORY has built a program in 2 years and 6 games. Had some early success? Perhaps. Built a program? No way.

I think the collective IQ of our fan is lower than our 40 year Big Ten winning percentage. Perhaps we get what we deserve.

But you didn't say that did you? You picked those two programs and compared them to this one. You picked programs that had won Conference Championships, went to Rose Bowls etc. and compared them to the present Gopher situation. You were counting on people not being smart enough to figure that out? Now instead of just admitting the mistake you're lashing out and trying to re-write your recent post.

Kill needs to get healthy and get back to the sidelines so we don't have to look at unpleasant alternatives. If you want to make the argument that Claeys would be at the top of your list for hire if Kill can't be back, than make it. Don't get pissed that people didn't buy your first $*W$%&W comparison.

AS a self-proclaimed Gopher Fan, you should get some sleep. Don't want you ruining that 40 I.Q. of yours.

 

[GopherDieHardDyingHard]

Kiffin was fired- even you should be able to see the difference between Kill and Kiffin.

I know...but I was just trying to make a point that continuity isn't always the best answer. (By the way, Kiffin was fired despite having a better record, more difficult schedule, and had to deal with scholarship reductions and postseason bans from a previous regime. Imagine that, having high expectations and standards for a head coach...)