Leevon Perry...

[50PoundHead]

There are a lot of reasons why a prospective student may or may not get into a given school. "Core course" issues often crop up as much as test scores.

Who knows what would have been the case with Perry if Mason had still be here?

 

[BisonGopher]

The Big Ten doesn't have a set conference baseline for admissions, but each school in the Big Ten has it's own set of criteria. They absolutely have tougher admission requirements than the NCAA standards.

Take a look at this article talking about Nebraska's potential change in recruiting. http://www.omaha.com/article/20100620/BIGRED/706209859

I already said that each school has it's own criteria and I do acknowledged that Big Ten schools have higher admission standards for most undergraduate students than other public schools with bachelor degree or teaching focus.


But you're telling me that there have been cases in the past where the head football coach wanted to offer a player that met the NCAA minimum standards for DI athletes, but then the University of Minnesota admissions office said "coach, we reviewed the application for your player and we're sorry, but even though he'd be just 1 of 5000 new undergrads this fall and his lower than the student body average scores wouldn't make a lick of difference in the academic experience of the other students, we have decided to deny his admission"?

I flat out don't believe you're telling me the truth. Sorry.

 

[50PoundHead]

Well, Robert McField got in to the U and he had pending armed robbery charges. It's an imperfect process and I'm certain that there are a number of deviations from the expected norm for a variety of reasons. And it likely happens at every school.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

I already said that each school has it's own criteria and I do acknowledged that Big Ten schools have higher admission standards for most undergraduate students than other public schools with bachelor degree or teaching focus.


But you're telling me that there have been cases in the past where the head football coach wanted to offer a player that met the NCAA minimum standards for DI athletes, but then the University of Minnesota admissions office said "coach, we reviewed the application for your player and we're sorry, but even though he'd be just 1 of 5000 new undergrads this fall and his lower than the student body average scores wouldn't make a lick of difference in the academic experience of the other students, we have decided to deny his admission"?

I flat out don't believe you're telling me the truth. Sorry.

He's not saying that. He is saying that the minimum for playing football in the Big 10 is higher than at NDSU and at several other institutions.

From the article:

"The NCAA has its own set of Division I eligibility requirements for incoming freshmen — namely 16 core course credits and a passing grade on a sliding scale that compares GPA and SAT/ACT scores.

Most schools, including Nebraska and its soon-to-be conference partners to the east, are a little more picky"

The Big 10 schools are "a little more picky" than the NCAA minimum eligibility requirements for incoming freshman.

You have a bad habit of making bold statements with nothing to back them up and then of not being able to process information when someone supplies you with it. From now on, when you demand evidence for something, please be able to process that evidence.

It's simple....the standards to be eligible in the Big 10 are higher than at other institutions. It's actually a pretty well established fact.

 

[BisonGopher]

He's not saying that. He is saying that the minimum for playing football in the Big 10 is higher than at NDSU and at several other institutions.

From the article:

"The NCAA has its own set of Division I eligibility requirements for incoming freshmen — namely 16 core course credits and a passing grade on a sliding scale that compares GPA and SAT/ACT scores.

Most schools, including Nebraska and its soon-to-be conference partners to the east, are a little more picky"

The Big 10 schools are "a little more picky" than the NCAA minimum eligibility requirements for incoming freshman.

You have a bad habit of making bold statements with nothing to back them up and then of not being able to process information when someone supplies you with it. From now on, when you demand evidence for something, please be able to process that evidence.

It's simple....the standards to be eligible in the Big 10 are higher than at other institutions. It's actually a pretty well established fact.

I already admitted, twice now, that the U of Minnesota, like other Big Ten schools, has higher standards for undergrad freshman. And as the very article you refer to mentions, the Big Ten conference itself has no defined standard for minimum academic requirements.


That's an irrelevant point - football players are not held to such standards. They get a free pass at the admissions office because, well, they play football!

Lets put it this way: if there's a young man out there who meets the NCAA minimum standard for DI athletes and Jerry Kill wants the young man on his team- he's admitted to the university. No questions.

That is my claim. Now my charge to you good people who have been denying that, please provide the evidence you claim exists showing that the U has in fact denied a football player admission, even though he met the NCAA DI standard.

Frankly, I just don't believe there has ever been such a case short of extraneous circumstances to academics (like criminal charges and so on).

 

[Gold Vision]

This was the most recent example I could find.

Former Gophers recruit and Arizona Western College safety Drayquan Crawford is now at Nevada-Las Vegas.
Crawford, a 6-foot-1, 205-pound junior and three-star recruit by Rivals.com, attended summer school at Minnesota. But Crawford left school because he wasn’t going to meet the admission standards for the university in the fall.

 

[tjgopher]

I already admitted, twice now, that the U of Minnesota, like other Big Ten schools, has higher standards for undergrad freshman. And as the very article you refer to mentions, the Big Ten conference itself has no defined standard for minimum academic requirements.


That's an irrelevant point - football players are not held to such standards. They get a free pass at the admissions office because, well, they play football!

Lets put it this way: if there's a young man out there who meets the NCAA minimum standard for DI athletes and Jerry Kill wants the young man on his team- he's admitted to the university. No questions.

That is my claim. Now my charge to you good people who have been denying that, please provide the evidence you claim exists showing that the U has in fact denied a football player admission, even though he met the NCAA DI standard.

Frankly, I just don't believe there has ever been such a case short of extraneous circumstances to academics (like criminal charges and so on).

No, you're flat out wrong. Many, many, many athletes have been denied admission at Big Ten universities and gone on to play at other other schools in other conferences. My god, the list would be nearly endless. You're best to simply bail out of this discussion.

Jacob Thomas is not a football player, but a basketball player. He could not get into the U. He is currently with Monson at Long Beach. Calvin Godfrey was a guy Tubby also wanted. The U said no. Iowa State said yes. Vincent Hill was a highly-ranked football player that was denied admission at the U and was accepted at Temple.

That's not to mention the countless players that both the football coach and basketball coach at the U would have pursued, but didn't because they knew the U would not let them in.

Brewster actually had some success getting a few more borderline guys into school than Mason did, but still could certainly not get everyone he wanted in.

And, to be honest, we aren't in that bad of shape. Other Big Ten schools are more picky than we are. Most Big Ten schools get a set number of "freebies" - which is to say guys eligible by NCAA standards, but not by school standards. Those "freebies" are NOT unlimited. Michigan doesn't let any partial qualifiers in. Northwestern doesn't give but one or two. Minnesota a few more. But, if Kill wanted to recruit 20 guys that are below U standards but above baseline NCAA standards, no chance ever he would get all 20. Probably more like five. Oklahoma??? They probably would get 10 in. Tennessee??? They might get 15. Boise State? Almost all 20.

To say that any athlete eligible by the NCAA would be admitted to Michigan or Northwestern or Purdue or Wisconsin or Minnesota is just wrong. Many athletes have been turned down by those schools and ended up at other schools, playing as freshmen. Boise State has made a living off of getting guys like this into school. High-end FCS schools have feasted on this, too. Simple as that.

 

[harrys ghost]

No, you're flat out wrong. Many, many, many athletes have been denied admission at Big Ten universities and gone on to play at other other schools in other conferences. My god, the list would be nearly endless. You're best to simply bail out of this discussion.

Jacob Thomas is not a football player, but a basketball player. He could not get into the U. He is currently with Monson at Long Beach. Vincent Hill was a highly-ranked football player that was denied admission at the U and was accepted at Temple.

That's not to mention the countless players that both the football coach and basketball coach at the U would have pursued, but didn't because they knew the U would not let them in.

Brewster actually had some success getting a few more borderline guys into school than Mason did, but still could certainly not get everyone he wanted in.

Other recent guys include Taikwon Paige and James Green who ended up at Toledo and Demond Washington who ended up at Auburn.

 

[zambam]

If you wanted to be an English major, I'd have to agree with your "councilor"...

Don't worry I'm not an English major.

Which is probably why they have some athletes retake the ACT test or have flags on some before allowing admission even though they may have "passed" the ACT...

I don't get what you are trying to say to me here.

 

[gopherbadgerman]

18 I think. The higher the GPA, the lower the allowed ACT score and vica versa

17 minimum to get in as an athlete...

 

[LongTimeGopher]

But you're telling me that there have been cases in the past where the head football coach wanted to offer a player that met the NCAA minimum standards for DI athletes, but then the University of Minnesota admissions office said "coach, we reviewed the application for your player and we're sorry, but even though he'd be just 1 of 5000 new undergrads this fall and his lower than the student body average scores wouldn't make a lick of difference in the academic experience of the other students, we have decided to deny his admission"?

I flat out don't believe you're telling me the truth. Sorry.

Alright BisonXGopher, now admit you're wrong and flat out STFU!!

 

[BisonGopher]

No, you're flat out wrong. Many, many, many athletes have been denied admission at Big Ten universities and gone on to play at other other schools in other conferences. My god, the list would be nearly endless. You're best to simply bail out of this discussion.

Jacob Thomas is not a football player, but a basketball player. He could not get into the U. He is currently with Monson at Long Beach. Calvin Godfrey was a guy Tubby also wanted. The U said no. Iowa State said yes. Vincent Hill was a highly-ranked football player that was denied admission at the U and was accepted at Temple.

That's not to mention the countless players that both the football coach and basketball coach at the U would have pursued, but didn't because they knew the U would not let them in.

Brewster actually had some success getting a few more borderline guys into school than Mason did, but still could certainly not get everyone he wanted in.

And, to be honest, we aren't in that bad of shape. Other Big Ten schools are more picky than we are. Most Big Ten schools get a set number of "freebies" - which is to say guys eligible by NCAA standards, but not by school standards. Those "freebies" are NOT unlimited. Michigan doesn't let any partial qualifiers in. Northwestern doesn't give but one or two. Minnesota a few more. But, if Kill wanted to recruit 20 guys that are below U standards but above baseline NCAA standards, no chance ever he would get all 20. Probably more like five. Oklahoma??? They probably would get 10 in. Tennessee??? They might get 15. Boise State? Almost all 20.

To say that any athlete eligible by the NCAA would be admitted to Michigan or Northwestern or Purdue or Wisconsin or Minnesota is just wrong. Many athletes have been turned down by those schools and ended up at other schools, playing as freshmen. Boise State has made a living off of getting guys like this into school. High-end FCS schools have feasted on this, too. Simple as that.

If you expect me to take you at your word, I won't do that. But if you can provide article link saying definitively that a recruit was offered a scholarship but then denied admission to the school, then I was wrong.

But think about it: Minnesota gets 5000 new undergrads a year. Why would they care 20 of them (football players) only meet the NCAA minimum? It does nothing negative to the university to admit those players and potentially makes the school a ton of money via success on the field. And it's not like Minnesota is leaps and bounds better academically than Florida, so what is the point of denying them?

It makes no sense to deny them. That's why I don't believe you.

 

[Gold Vision]

If you expect me to take you at your word, I won't do that. But if you can provide article link saying definitively that a recruit was offered a scholarship but then denied admission to the school, then I was wrong.

But think about it: Minnesota gets 5000 new undergrads a year. Why would they care 20 of them (football players) only meet the NCAA minimum? It does nothing negative to the university to admit those players and potentially makes the school a ton of money via success on the field. And it's not like Minnesota is leaps and bounds better academically than Florida, so what is the point of denying them?

It makes no sense to deny them. That's why I don't believe you.

This is common knowledge in the NCAA football world. Schools like Toledo and Boise State (even NDSU) have made a living on these recruits. Google any of the names people have mentioned. There are a ton of kids Minnesota won't even look at.

My example from this year:
http://blogs.twincities.com/gophers/2011/08/05/former-gophers-football-recruit-finds-another-home/

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Are you really this dense? You really can't process information. This is like the third time you haven't been able to grasp an idea on here, demanded proof, couldn't understand the proof, and refused to not acknowledge it as fact.

#1: Read that article. It is talking about ELIGIBILITY. That should be a clue to you that it is not referring to the average student. They are talking about being eligible to play sports. That's how that word is used. For instance, when Hageman was "ineligible" last year, he was still in school. He just wasn't ELIGIBLE to play football. Makes sense???? Probably not.

#2: Drawquan Crawford couldn't get eligible to play football at the U but was eligible to play football at UNLV. Why? How is that possible if they have the same minimum requirement for athletes?

#3: There is the case of DeAndre Brown (one of the better WRs in the country) choosing Southern Miss because he couldn't qualify for Alabama. Now, lets use some deductive reasoning. That means, he could qualify for Southern Miss but not Alabama, so that should make sense to you that they have different requirements to qualify for a scholarship, and since Alabama and Southern Miss are both in the NCAA...here it comes....some schools in the country CHOOSE to have more difficult standards than others. (Big 10 having the highest of the BCS conferences (as a conference)).

 

[BisonGopher]

It says Crawford went to a junior college -- your entire logic just fell apart. There are entirely different standards at some schools about who is eligible to transfer in from a junior college than there are for new undergrads coming in from high school and they have nothing to do with GPA/ACT scores.

We were always talking about kids from high school here, don't try to expand the domain of the discussion.

And another thing, I know some schools have certain class requirements that have nothing to do with GPA and test scores. IE, isn't it true that the U requires 2 semesters of foreign language in high school? So a kid has 4.0 with 30 ACT, but didn't take any foreign language. He's ineligible to apply at the U. Boom - roasted again.


This is just pointing more and more towards the fact that I am right on this: Minnesota will admit any football recruit that Kill wants so long as he meets the NCAA minimum for GPA/ACT and meets the other, extraneous requirements.

 

[harrys ghost]

It says Crawford went to a junior college -- your entire logic just fell apart. There are entirely different standards at some schools about who is eligible to transfer in from a junior college than there are for new undergrads coming in from high school and they have nothing to do with GPA/ACT scores.

We were always talking about kids from high school here, don't try to expand the domain of the discussion.

And another thing, I know some schools have certain class requirements that have nothing to do with GPA and test scores. IE, isn't it true that the U requires 2 semesters of foreign language in high school? So a kid has 4.0 with 30 ACT, but didn't take any foreign language. He's ineligible to apply at the U. Boom - roasted again.


This is just pointing more and more towards the fact that I am right on this: Minnesota will admit any football recruit that Kill wants so long as he meets the NCAA minimum for GPA/ACT and meets the other, extraneous requirements.

So, UNLV is a junior college. Gee, learn something new every day.

 

[scher215]

It says Crawford went to a junior college -- your entire logic just fell apart. There are entirely different standards at some schools about who is eligible to transfer in from a junior college than there are for new undergrads coming in from high school and they have nothing to do with GPA/ACT scores.

We were always talking about kids from high school here, don't try to expand the domain of the discussion.

And another thing, I know some schools have certain class requirements that have nothing to do with GPA and test scores. IE, isn't it true that the U requires 2 semesters of foreign language in high school? So a kid has 4.0 with 30 ACT, but didn't take any foreign language. He's ineligible to apply at the U. Boom - roasted again.

This is just pointing more and more towards the fact that I am right on this: Minnesota will admit any football recruit that Kill wants so long as he meets the NCAA minimum for GPA/ACT and meets the other, extraneous requirements.

You are also wrong about the U's language policy. Completely. In order to graduate from CLA you need 4 semesters of language IN COLLEGE. If you have had prior language classes in high school you can essentially skip one semester of it if you take the same language. However, no language classes are required for admittance into the U. Most colleges don't even require you take a language in college, such as Carlson for example.

But nice to know you are a U of M admissions expert too.

 

[zambam]

It says Crawford went to a junior college -- your entire logic just fell apart. There are entirely different standards at some schools about who is eligible to transfer in from a junior college than there are for new undergrads coming in from high school and they have nothing to do with GPA/ACT scores.

We were always talking about kids from high school here, don't try to expand the domain of the discussion.

And another thing, I know some schools have certain class requirements that have nothing to do with GPA and test scores. IE, isn't it true that the U requires 2 semesters of foreign language in high school? So a kid has 4.0 with 30 ACT, but didn't take any foreign language. He's ineligible to apply at the U. Boom - roasted again.


This is just pointing more and more towards the fact that I am right on this: Minnesota will admit any football recruit that Kill wants so long as he meets the NCAA minimum for GPA/ACT and meets the other, extraneous requirements.

You misunderstood the article. He was enrolled in the U summer school after his time at Arizona Western. I know this because it said Kill was excited to have him, not Brewster, therefore he would have had to been coming in to play this year after his time in Junior College.

 

[pharmacygopher]

It says Crawford went to a junior college -- your entire logic just fell apart. There are entirely different standards at some schools about who is eligible to transfer in from a junior college than there are for new undergrads coming in from high school and they have nothing to do with GPA/ACT scores.

We were always talking about kids from high school here, don't try to expand the domain of the discussion.

And another thing, I know some schools have certain class requirements that have nothing to do with GPA and test scores. IE, isn't it true that the U requires 2 semesters of foreign language in high school? So a kid has 4.0 with 30 ACT, but didn't take any foreign language. He's ineligible to apply at the U. Boom - roasted again.


This is just pointing more and more towards the fact that I am right on this: Minnesota will admit any football recruit that Kill wants so long as he meets the NCAA minimum for GPA/ACT and meets the other, extraneous requirements.

Are you trying to get a rise out of people or can you not read at all??? Read the sentence again...slowly...

But Crawford left school because he wasn’t going to meet the admission standards for the university in the fall.

You wanted a link, well you got one (which is probably difficult because I don't think the U puts out press releases saying someone can't get into school). Too bad you can't comprehend.

Recap....recruited to U....couldn't get past admissions...went to UNLV.....tough to understand.

 

[BisonGopher]

So, UNLV is a junior college. Gee, learn something new every day.

Arizona Western, but you knew that you twit. Just trying to twist my words

 

[BisonGopher]

You misunderstood the article. He was enrolled in the U summer school after his time at Arizona Western. I know this because it said Kill was excited to have him, not Brewster, therefore he would have had to been coming in to play this year after his time in Junior College.

Correction, he took class in the summer. It is possible take class without being an official student ('auditing' I believe it's called) and then be able to recover credit for that class when you are admitted.

 

[BisonGopher]

Are you trying to get a rise out of people or can you not read at all??? Read the sentence again...slowly...

But Crawford left school because he wasn’t going to meet the admission standards for the university in the fall.

You wanted a link, well you got one (which is probably difficult because I don't think the U puts out press releases saying someone can't get into school). Too bad you can't comprehend.

Recap....recruited to U....couldn't get past admissions...went to UNLV.....tough to understand.

We were discussing in regards to the NCAA minimum requirements, which have to do with GPA and ACT scores. That was the basis of the discussion.

Not people who were denied admission for other extraneous reasons to those (such as requirements for transferring from a junior college).

 

[Unregistered User]

Correction, he took class in the summer. It is possible take class without being an official student ('auditing' I believe it's called) and then be able to recover credit for that class when you are admitted.

Well done. The trolling, I mean. Because it can't be possible for anyone to be this dim. I applaud your effort in getting these member of GH to chase your tail.

Unless, of course, you really are that fvcking dense.

 

[zambam]

Correction, he took class in the summer. It is possible take class without being an official student ('auditing' I believe it's called) and then be able to recover credit for that class when you are admitted.

Ok, but do you understand that he didn't qualify for the U AFTER JuCo? That was my point...

 

[BisonGopher]

Well done. The trolling, I mean. Because it can't be possible for anyone to be this dim. I applaud your effort in getting these member of GH to chase your tail.

Unless, of course, you really are that fvcking dense.

It was actually a very good point that I bet he didn't consider.

If you're going to throw out a false accusation with the hopes that it will make the mods come running, at least quote a post where I'm not making a good point.

 

[BisonGopher]

Ok, but do you understand that he didn't qualify for the U AFTER JuCo? That was my point...

But it doesn't say *why* he didn't qualify. Your assumption is that he didn't have the GPA or test scores to meet the U of Minn's minimum for those, even though he meets the NCAA minimum for those.

Again, my basis in this discussion is only with regard to the NCAA minimum being a sufficient condition for gaining admission to the U. That assumes all other extraneous technicalities of the U of Minn's admissions policy have been met. Therefore, if those are satisfied then my claim is that the NCAA minimum for GPA/test scores is all that is needed to get the recruit in.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

We were discussing in regards to the NCAA minimum requirements, which have to do with GPA and ACT scores. That was the basis of the discussion.

Not people who were denied admission for other extraneous reasons to those (such as requirements for transferring from a junior college).

Well, I just used Crawford as a closer example. The "extraneous reasons" you are talking about are GPA/Credits/and test scores.

So now we got you to admit that the U doesn't take the NCAA minimum qualifying requirements for JuCo.

Since you are looking for some nonsense to keep up with your 100% unfounded opinion, here is a little bit more evidence.

Do you remember Trabis Ward? He was a highley rated RB out of FL who the U was interested in. This was about two years ago, and according to him, his HS coach, and the U he didn't get an offer because he couldn't qualify to the U. However, he did qualify to play college football (minimum eligibility requirements). He ended up at Tenn St., and played as a true freshman. Now, are you suggesting that Trabis Ward didn't know what he was talking about?

I am sick of doing the legwork for you on things that are common knowledge. So you can just google Trabis Ward and the Gophers.

If that doesn't do anything for you, explain to me how Deandre Brown openly talked about not qualifying to get into Alabama but played at Southern Miss?

Also please explain the Nebraska article where they are talking about the higher standard in the Big 10 to get players ELIGIBLE.

 

[50PoundHead]

There are a ton of reasons kids don't get past the clearinghouse. Obviously, schools are willing to try and get the kid who is 90% of the way there past admissions, but Bob_Loblaw has pointed out several examples of kids that schools simply couldn't push through the process.

It's not just about test scores and GPAs. There are "core course" requirements as well and with more kids throughout the country in alternative programs and charter schools, that can often be a considerable stumbling block. And it's my guess is a kid goes the JUCO route, he still could be missing some core courses.

 

[BisonGopher]

There are a ton of reasons kids don't get past the clearinghouse. Obviously, schools are willing to try and get the kid who is 90% of the way there past admissions, but Bob_Loblaw has pointed out several examples of kids that schools simply couldn't push through the process.

It's not just about test scores and GPAs. There are "core course" requirements as well and with more kids throughout the country in alternative programs and charter schools, that can often be a considerable stumbling block. And it's my guess is a kid goes the JUCO route, he still could be missing some core courses.

The clearinghouse **IS** the NCAA minimum requirement for DI. It's just another name for the same thing.


I've been arguing the entire time that if a recruit meets the NCAA minimum - ie, he meets the clearinghouse - he will not be denied admission to the U of Minn.

You're saying that if a recruit does not meet the NCAA minimum - ie, he doesn't meet the clearinghouse - he will be denied admission to the U of Minn.


These arguments are not in any way in contention with each other. And in fact I've been trying to tell people the exact thing you just said - that there are extraneous reasons to GPA/scores that are likely culprits, like you just pointed out about core classes.

 

[BisonGopher]

Well, I just used Crawford as a closer example. The "extraneous reasons" you are talking about are GPA/Credits/and test scores.

So now we got you to admit that the U doesn't take the NCAA minimum qualifying requirements for JuCo.

Since you are looking for some nonsense to keep up with your 100% unfounded opinion, here is a little bit more evidence.

Do you remember Trabis Ward? He was a highley rated RB out of FL who the U was interested in. This was about two years ago, and according to him, his HS coach, and the U he didn't get an offer because he couldn't qualify to the U. However, he did qualify to play college football (minimum eligibility requirements). He ended up at Tenn St., and played as a true freshman. Now, are you suggesting that Trabis Ward didn't know what he was talking about?

I am sick of doing the legwork for you on things that are common knowledge. So you can just google Trabis Ward and the Gophers.

If that doesn't do anything for you, explain to me how Deandre Brown openly talked about not qualifying to get into Alabama but played at Southern Miss?

Also please explain the Nebraska article where they are talking about the higher standard in the Big 10 to get players ELIGIBLE.

Nebraska article was just saying that Big Ten schools have higher admission standards for undergrads - which is true. Football recruits are allowed to have those requirements waived at the admissions office.

Why take Brown at his word? He probably meant one thing and just generically said he wouldn't qualify at Alabama. Or perhaps whoever wrote the article misinterpreted him. PS - the U of AL is not any kind of strict academic institution, as many here have pointed out about the SEC. So why assume the opposite?

Same with Ward. Maybe he assumed that was the reason he didn't get an offer, but actually that wasn't the reason.


For Crawford, there are tons of possibilities as to why he may not have been eligible at the U that have nothing to do with meeting the NCAA clearninghouse. My argument is that if a Juco player meets the minimum requirements, then the basis of GPA/test scores will not cause his admission to be denied. That has not changed.