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WilliamsArenaGuy

WilliamsArenaGuy

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From reading this board, I have learned two things:

1. No white player on our team can help us if he isn't making shots. There is nothign else they can contribute. I learned this a while ago, but it is continually reinforced.

2. The new one I am picking up on is that we just CANNOT have two white players on the court at the same time. That is a recipe for disaster.

I am not sure what Westbrook, Johnson, are Bostick are really contributing right now, but they are rarely described in the same context as Hoff, Shamala, Busch et al. And in the case of Bostick, many pine for him to get more time based on...I don't know what.

Just an interesting observation I've made from several comments over time. I know I am simplifying this somewhat, so you don't need to jump on me, but tell you haven't seen these comments over and over if you read the board as much as I do.
 

What? Are you drinking tonight? Are you one of the guys that subscribed to a similar theory in regards to the Vikings during the Green years, or are you talking about the people posting not giving the white man his proper respect?

Here is something for you-Iverson could patrol the paint and become more of a physical presence without the ball.
 


I have to agree with WAG. Busch and Hoffarber get too much flack on this board. From what I've seen, Blake has a better all-around game than Westbrook, yet he's considered by many to be worthless unless he's hitting the threes. And I think Busch brings a lot to the table despite being undersized. He's one of our best rebounders and always plays hard.

I think that America has developed an almost reverse discrimination in basketball towards white players. We want to give African-Americans their due, and honestly, they are better basketball players overall. However, we then stereotype all white players as bangers or shooters who have no real athletic talent. It's not like I'm complaining. Black athletes have had to suffer through similar types of stereotyping but much worse and for a lot longer - it's just that in basketball currently, the tides have turned and it is the white player that must prove himself or be labeled via the stereotypes.
 

Silly Post...

From what I've read, LW and DJ are taking most of the criticism. Last time I looked they are black.
 




When I see the race card being played, especially on an athletic board, the first thing I do is look for signs of sarcasm. Sadly, I don't see any here. Hosea, where are you when we need you?
 

Yipes

Where did this thread come from? Seems like all the players have taken their lumps over this season on this board and from what I can recall, only due to the activities on the court. The only colors I see on this team are maroon and gold. I do hate the white uniforms, I admit it.
 



Gopher4Life said:
When I see the race card being played, especially on an athletic board, the first thing I do is look for signs of sarcasm. Sadly, I don't see any here. Hosea, where are you when we need you?
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I'm not playing any race card. I've made an interesting observation. These comments are made quite often. That is all. Tell me one time you've seen a post say Player A and Player B just can't be on the floor together and they weren't two of the white players. And don't tell me you've never seen anyone say Hoffarber can only shoot or he's worthless, even though he probably has the highest BB IQ on the team.

I'm not calling racism here. But some people's perceptions of players is greatly clouded for seemingly one reason.
 

white_flour.jpg
 

WAG,

>>I'm not playing any race card.<<

I think you did, and others followed you on that path.

>>I've made an interesting observation.<<

I think your observation is not only uninteresting, but also wrong.

>>These comments are made quite often.<<

Comments about racial composition of our roster or starting lineup are almost never made on this board.
 

And don't tell me you've never seen anyone say Hoffarber can only shoot or he's worthless, even though he probably has the highest BB IQ on the team.
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What has Hoffarber done to support that observation?

I'd suggest Joseph for that title being that he's stepped in and logged minutes at the point as a freshman in conference play despite it not being his natural position.
 



It also isn't our fault that Blake and Jamal play the same position and have the same skill set.

I've read more about Colton and Ralph not being on the floor together, and that also has to do with skill set.

Just admit it was a dumb racist post and we will all move on.
 

Do not forget that this team has two freshman post players that are still developing. Without the big man in the middle I tend think that it is difficult to get good perimeter shots and is probably responsible for some of the bad shooting.

As the big men develop I think the overall effectiveness of the offense will improve. We are probably where we should be with the experience level we have.
 

WilliamsArenaGuy said:
From reading this board, I have learned two things:

1. No white player on our team can help us if he isn't making shots. There is nothign else they can contribute. I learned this a while ago, but it is continually reinforced.

2. The new one I am picking up on is that we just CANNOT have two white players on the court at the same time. That is a recipe for disaster.

I am not sure what Westbrook, Johnson, are Bostick are really contributing right now, but they are rarely described in the same context as Hoff, Shamala, Busch et al. And in the case of Bostick, many pine for him to get more time based on...I don't know what.

Just an interesting observation I've made from several comments over time. I know I am simplifying this somewhat, so you don't need to jump on me, but tell you haven't seen these comments over and over if you read the board as much as I do.
Click to expand...


I can't tell if you put up this stupid thread because you really wanted to start a race debate, or if you just don't know anything about basketball.


-Abu Shamala and Busch are former walk-ons that are getting a lot of minutes because frankly, nobody is playing well enough to suggest that they shouldn't. These guys still aren't as skilled as any of the starters, Carter, Joesph, Hoff, and probably Bostick and that is pretty obvious whenever either of them plays for an extended period of time.

-Blake is struggling, but is he really taking more heat from people than Westbrook or Nolen? He is struggling the most w/the best part of his game (shooting 3's), so that is why people rip him when he is missing shots. Nolen is highly regarded because of his assist to turnover ratio, but when he turns it over people go nuts, and everybody wants Joesph to start. Westbrook isn't scoring and he is taking plenty of heat for it because he is undersized and when the best part of his came isn't clicking, it puts the focus on the other parts of his game which are not as good. These guys have other skills, but when they can't do the things they are supposed to do, they look bad. You can say the same thing for DJ and creating turnovers.

-People want to see Bostick play more because he was the national juco player of the year and was known as a scorer. This team is having trouble scoring and since everybody else seems to be getting a lot of minutes, we all wonder why this guy isn't getting his shot.

As far as the black/white thing goes, 95% of the fans just want somebody to step up. I'm sure every gopher fan would be pretty psyched if Abu Shamala was playing like Nick Calathes, Iverson was playing like Harangody, Blake was playing like last year's version of himself, Nolen was playing like Kalin Lucas, and Westbrook was playing like Steph Currey. Instead everybody is struggling, and everybody is getting ripped for it. These guys are still young and talented and I hope they go on a roll and shut the doom and gloom crowd up.
 

it's true that everybody on the team is struggling, but to suggest that there is some kind of racist divide going on here in terms of criticism is mind boggling.

Facts are facts and if players aren't getting the job done, they aren't getting the job done. Period. The color of their skin has nothing to do with the kind of criticisms that are showing up on here, at least from what I can see.

Every single guy on our team is regressing right now (except maybe Sampson), whether it be Nolen for refusing to shoot and not being able to finish a driving layup, to DJ not being able to hit anything but a floater in the paint, to Westbrook being out of control most of the time, to Hoff throwing the ball away, to Iverson getting into foul trouble all the time, and so on and so forth.

There is plenty of criticism to go around. And for some to believe its unwarranted because someone is either black or white is one of the most short-sighted arguments I have ever seen on this board. All people want is for someone on the team to pick it up and get the job done, which isn't happening right now. Doesn't matter if the player is white, black, polka-dotted, stripped or plaid, we just want someone to start playing better and to suggest otherwise is both offensive and utterly ridiculous...
 


OK everyone

This is not what I was intending for this thread, but honestly I knew this is what would happen.

Anyway, my point was about two specific types of criticisms. I wasn't saying the white players are better than the black players or anything like that. It was an observation based over time. I wasn't making it up. If you haven't seen these comments made multiple times, you are either a) blind, or b) someone who doesn't read the board that closely.

Yes, there are many other criticisms against the team posted here against all the players and the coach too. However, I see these two a lot and felt like pointing it out because it is interesting to me. And I know I am not alone in noticing it. It doesn't have to be a big deal. It is what it is. After all, there was movie titled White Men Can't Jump. There, it was played to humorous effect. Here, sometimes it can be funny, and sometimes it can be dumb.
 

They're letting white guys play BB again?!! WTF. Next thing you know we'll have a black president.
 


It annoys me when people stereotype white players (and most people do), but I certainly have said that Abu Shamala and Hoffarber should not be on the court together. Neither guy is a good defender, neither is a great ball handler (though Hoffarber has improved) and neither is likely to take it to the basket. I'd say (hypothetically) that Limar Wilson and Al Nolen shouldn't be on the court together either because neither has a jumper. To mix it up, it's very rare that I like Colton and Ralph on the floor together.

I disagree about Hoffarber having the highest BB IQ on the team. I know he made a huge blunder yesterday that certainly puts a hole in my claim, but I'd give that title to Travis Busch.

I said earlier in the year that Hoffarber was improved as a ballhandler and was becoming a more well rounded player. Since the team has hit this extended stretch of poor play, Blake has not been as confident with the ball in his hands and it appears that the rest of his game has suffered along with his shooting stroke (which is not unusual for anyone). I do think it's possible for Blake to help us when he's not hitting outside shots, but he's not helping recently.

I think Jamal and Blake both fit in to the white stereotype, but I also think both guys are solid players. Just because it's a stereotype that white guys are good shooters and are not athletes doesn't mean you can't be effective with that type of game. Shooting the basketball well is the most important skill in my mind. I'd much rather have a team full of guys who can hit the 3 and can't dunk (even though I think Jamal and probably Blake can dunk) than have a bunch of guys who can 360, but can't hit a jumper. I am already thinking about needing a pure shooter in the 2010 class because if we wait until 2011, we'd have a true freshman taking over Blake's role. I think Blake has the potential to be more than just a shooter, but the first thing he's got to do is learn to shoot the 3 off the bounce in addition to catch and shoot. The kid for tOSU was able to hit a number of 3's at the barn off the dribble.
 

EG9

Thank you for that response. It was well-written and more along the lines of what I was getting at. If I had more time, I'd respond to specific points, but I don't. Anyway, I agreed with almost all of it and enjoyed reading it.

Also, while I think Hoff has the highest BB IQ, I definitely agree he has been slipping, outside of OSU. Early in the shooting slump, he was still doing a lot of really good things. This is when the "he can only shoot" comments bothered me. Lately though, he has been looking a lot more flustered as you pointed out. I even posted that a week ago or so.
 

Hoff definitely has the highest BB IQ on the team. He is the only one on the team that knows how to properly make a low post entry pass (bounce pass from the free throw line extended after an up fake). If the rest of the guards on this team could learn that ONE skill, we would be able to generate more than one or two genuine post ups per game.
 

Wow,

Just caught this thread for the first time this morning. Ridiculous. Bush and Shamala are former walk ons and play hard...but are difinately not as talented of players as the starters.
 

Bottom line is that both guys' best attribute is their ability to shoot the ball. Neither is quick or athletic, neither is really hitting their shots right now and neither is particularly good defensively. So you have 2 players with pretty much the same strengths and neither is doing those particularly well. They also have the same weaknesses so that's why many feel they shouldn't be on the court together. Busch is also our least talented/athletic 'big'. Truth is that they are our 3 least athletic players (Big Jon never plays) so having 2 or more on the court at the same time gives us a very unathletic team on the court.
 

XMan said:
Wow,

Just caught this thread for the first time this morning. Ridiculous. Bush and Shamala are former walk ons and play hard...but are difinately not as talented of players as the starters.
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Who said that? Seriously.

I know I should have known something like this would happen, but my God, that wasn't the point of my post. I pointed out two consistent comments I have seen that are based for the most part on stereotypes. Sometimes they may be fair, but other times the people that are posting them are basing soling on the fact that they are white players.

I don't want Busch and Shamala starting. I don't think any of these players should necessarily be playing any more than they are. What I'd like to think is that I can judge their game based on more than just one attribute. Most people here can do that as well. But a few were starting to make the same comments over and over. Maybe they weren't seen that often because many of them appear in game threads. And maybe not everyone reads the game threads.

What's funny is that I started this thread based on the posts of others, yet I turn out to be the one called a racist by such brilliant minds as From the Barn and G4L. Am I a racist because I want Paul Carter to start over Iverson? Give me a break. Stereotypes exist all over the place in basketball and to pretend they don't is what is ridiculous.

EG9 got my post and I thank him for that. I thought this would lead to a better discussion and it didn't. I'm done now.
 

WAG,

A discussion of various combinations of players is legitimate. Your own insertion of color into that discussion is where you drifted and what caused the reaction you've experienced.
 

Gopher4Life said:
WAG,

A discussion of various combinations of players is legitimate. Your own insertion of color into that discussion is where you drifted and what caused the reaction you've experienced.
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I know I shold have expected these responses. However, are you saying the idea of color doesn't exist in this conversation? I find that to be naive.

The same types of stereotypes are made about black and white QB's in football everyday.

I hate the race card as well. I certainly wasn't implying one race was better than another or can't be criticized; I think I've posted here long enough for you to know that. But I was implying that there are posters on here who make their comments about players based on their color. You aren't one of them. But if you were to go back and read some of the comments I was talking about, I think you'd see what I mean.

That's why in my initial post I stated clearly that I knew I was oversimpifying. I know the majority of the board doesn't feel that way. But some were becoming more and more vocal and I disagreed with their takes. For one, his recent play notwithstanding, I feel Hoffarber is much more than just a guy that can shoot. He isn't the best player on the team either. But he has provided a hell of a lot more for us than say, Bostick, for example.
 

Please link to a post stating that the Gophers are losing because of their whiteness.
 

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