Joe Coleman

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Good points. I get the idea scher thinks we're born as blank slates and that if you just put your mind to it...

gopherMD said:
"Oto.. can't shoot", "Elliot... can't shoot." Your words contradict your point that a shooter is created and not born. Oto, EE and Coleman practice their shot 7 days a week. My guess is that they shoot hundreds of shots per day. A published story discussed how Coleman had worked all summer on his shot/game with his brother Dan. Yet he is at best a streaky shooter and when he starts off bad forget it. Tubby has sat him for long stretches when he starts bad and explained the situation in the press. Is he a better shooter than he was when his game at Hopkins was to explode to the hole against Mn HS opposition? Yes. But it is a stretch to say he is "a very good shooter". Furthermore if what you claim about nurture vs nature is true, every crazy for basketball, practice endlessly high school player would be raining 3s all night long. Practice can make most players better but great shooters have talent they are born with. I would wager a huge sum that Reggie Miller could get on the court with no practice for a month a drain a high percentage of 3s and bury the well-practiced pick-up game player.
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WILLBGOPHER said:
This is the Big 10, NOBODY is going to get 10 layups or dunks no matter how much you press. Illinois played an aweful game and never got back on defense that game. How many did Joe have the second time they played Illinois?

Lets face it, Joe plays the 3rd guard spot, and what does he do well? He can't shoot, dribble, turns the ball over a lot, and gets rejected at the rim several times per game. Joe is a poor mans Rodney Williams, and is a lane clogger.
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I have to rescind on my original comment. I thought I remembered us creating a ton of turnovers in that game. But, we didn't. Illinois only turned the ball over 7 times. What was the difference in both games? Tubby used to let his boys push the ball up the court. Now he has them walking the ball up the court on every possession.

Rodney Williams Jr is arguably the best athlete in college basketball. And Joe Coleman beat him in a dunk contest during Tubby's tipoff. Mbakwe and Austin can also get up. Heck, Dre even has some good hops. I think we have the most athletic starting 5 in college basketball. That's what got us off to our 15-1 start.

Tubby was telling the guys to push the ball on every possession. And we were getting tons of dunks because of that. Why he decided it was a good idea to go away from that, walk the ball up the court, and let teams get set up into their zone defense is the single biggest reason this team is failing miserably.

Why would you go away from what was working for you, when you know how bad your team is in a half court offense. It's driving me bananas that Tubby has stopped letting his squad get out and run. We are a great team when we run. We are lousy when we walk the ball up the court. Figure it out Tubby! Watch some old video of games during our 15-1 stretch!
 


What frustrates me about Joe and Rodney's shooting is not that they miss contested jump shots (something an elite shooter like Reggie may make), but that they often can't seem to make open jumpers. If a player is athletic enough to earn a division one scholarship at a B1G school as a 2 or 3 guard, I think it is reasonable to expect that player to be able to make open jumpers inside the 3 point line with consistency. Especially as a senior (Rodney). Yet I have very little confidence in either of them taking mid-ranged jumpers.
 

WILLBGOPHER said:
Orr was another gopher that was a brutal shooter his first couple of years, and by the time he was a senior was very good.
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Burton couldn't shoot a lick from outside when he came here and became a great three point shooter. Even Miles Tarver who was perhaps the worst shooter coming in here I have ever seen, got to be an okay shooter by the time he left. I'm sure the current guys are working on their shooting a lot. I'm not sure they are getting effective training on proper shooting form and if they are, they aren't using it.
 


Jibrahnike said:
Rodney Williams Jr is arguably the best athlete in college basketball. And Joe Coleman beat him in a dunk contest during Tubby's tipoff. Mbakwe and Austin can also get up. Heck, Dre even has some good hops. I think we have the most athletic starting 5 in college basketball. That's what got us off to our 15-1 start.

Tubby was telling the guys to push the ball on every possession. And we were getting tons of dunks because of that. Why he decided it was a good idea to go away from that, walk the ball up the court, and let teams get set up into their zone defense is the single biggest reason this team is failing miserably.

Why would you go away from what was working for you, when you know how bad your team is in a half court offense. It's driving me bananas that Tubby has stopped letting his squad get out and run. We are a great team when we run. We are lousy when we walk the ball up the court. Figure it out Tubby! Watch some old video of games during our 15-1 stretch!
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You have to create turnovers, defensive rebound, make shots to press. The difference is really its the big ten. Teams get back. The game is physical. We are built like non-big ten teams. Should we run more, of course, can we.. we will see.
 

Half the battle is confidence in my opinion. Did Austin Hollins just become that much of a better shooter over the past two years? He looked terrible as a freshman. He probably improved his fundamentals but I've got to believe a part of it was his confidence.

I don't think Oto is as bad of a shooter as we've seen. He just scared out of his mind every time he takes an outside shot.
 

WILLBGOPHER said:
Orr was another gopher that was a brutal shooter his first couple of years, and by the time he was a senior was very good.
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+1 I'm glad we went back to Chicago for recruiting, it reminded me of Orr. Bobby Knight said we got a sleeper with Orr on a late spring signing. Let's hope we get the 3rd Chicago kid.
 

march madness said:
You have to create turnovers, defensive rebound, make shots to press. The difference is really its the big ten. Teams get back. The game is physical. We are built like non-big ten teams. Should we run more, of course, can we.. we will see.
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I agree. The bottom line is that the Gophers are trying to play an SEC style in the Big Ten. Unless you have overwhelming talent (which the Gophers do not) it's simply not going to work. Any team with three decent ball handlers can slow a game down.
 



GophersInIowa said:
Rodney Williams has been a good player for us. He just hasn't developed nearly as much as we'd thought he would. If he had been an average recruit and had the same career, most would call it productive.
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Rodney has been the kind of player that helps create losses not wins. The total inconsistancy, and dissapearing acts during strectches of games against top opponents equal a gaping hole in the starting lineup much of the time. We all get that he's athletic, and the ooh and ahh dunks are fun but the inconsistancy has killed the squad. Remember Quincy? That was the most all around consistent contributer that I can remember as a starter.
 

BTen said:
Rodney has been the kind of player that helps create losses not wins. The total inconsistancy, and dissapearing acts during strectches of games against top opponents equal a gaping hole in the starting lineup much of the time. We all get that he's athletic, and the ooh and ahh dunks are fun but the inconsistancy has killed the squad. Remember Quincy? That was the most all around consistent contributer that I can remember as a starter.
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First of all, you're comparing him to one of the best scorers in Gophers history. Quincy probably would be the all-time leading scorer if the 96-97 team wouldn't have been so loaded with talent and his minutes were limited.

Then, to say he doesn't ever help this team win is ridiculous. He still averaging over 11 points, 5 rebounds, and 1.4 blocks a game while shooting over 50%. How about this as well:
- By the end of the year, Williams should be in the top 26 of scoring in Gopher history.
- He's already in the top 10 for career blocks
- If the season ended today, he'd finish 7th in career field goal percentage
- He's just four points away from becoming the 14th Gopher to score at least 1,100 points and grab 500 rebounds.
- He's just four points away from becoming the 5th Gopher to score at least 1,100 points, grab 500 rebounds, and block 150 shots.
- He's 21 assists away from becoming just the 3rd Gopher to score at least 1,000 points, grab 500 rebounds and have 200 assists.

Some may think his dunks are just for show, but in reality it is an advantage to have someone who can finish strong at the hoop and can offensive rebound like he does.

No doubt he's inconsistent and in many ways has been disappointing this year especially. That still doesn't mean he hasn't been productive in my opinion. Like I said, if he would have just been an average rated recruit, most people would be pretty happy with his productivity over his career.
 

march madness said:
You have to create turnovers, defensive rebound, make shots to press. The difference is really its the big ten. Teams get back. The game is physical. We are built like non-big ten teams. Should we run more, of course, can we.. we will see.
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Well, we only created 7 TO's against Illinois, yet Coleman had like 10 fast break dunks in that game. Why? Tubby used to have his guys push the ball up the court. He has told them to walk it up and run the shot clock down to 35 seconds now. The single biggest reason for our demise presently.
 

RS III scored 1000 points. It is a bit overrated like a 1000 yard rusher in the NFL...

How many career games has Rodney Williams played? Or will play? Where does he rank on that list?
 





Roland Brooks said:
RS III scored 1000 points. It is a bit overrated like a 1000 yard rusher in the NFL...

How many career games has Rodney Williams played? Or will play? Where does he rank on that list?
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So you would say that some 1,000 yard rushers are unproductive?

Not trying to claim Rodney Williams is a great player, but to say he is unproductive is ridiculous. Really not trying to say anything more than that. Yes, he will have played a few more games than most did, but you still have to be at least above average to put up those kind of numbers.
 

GophersInIowa said:
First of all, you're comparing him to one of the best scorers in Gophers history. Quincy probably would be the all-time leading scorer if the 96-97 team wouldn't have been so loaded with talent and his minutes were limited.

Then, to say he doesn't ever help this team win is ridiculous. He still averaging over 11 points, 5 rebounds, and 1.4 blocks a game while shooting over 50%. How about this as well:
- By the end of the year, Williams should be in the top 26 of scoring in Gopher history.
- He's already in the top 10 for career blocks
- If the season ended today, he'd finish 7th in career field goal percentage
- He's just four points away from becoming the 14th Gopher to score at least 1,100 points and grab 500 rebounds.
- He's just four points away from becoming the 5th Gopher to score at least 1,100 points, grab 500 rebounds, and block 150 shots.
- He's 21 assists away from becoming just the 3rd Gopher to score at least 1,000 points, grab 500 rebounds and have 200 assists.

Some may think his dunks are just for show, but in reality it is an advantage to have someone who can finish strong at the hoop and can offensive rebound like he does.

No doubt he's inconsistent and in many ways has been disappointing this year especially. That still doesn't mean he hasn't been productive in my opinion. Like I said, if he would have just been an average rated recruit, most people would be pretty happy with his productivity over his career.
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First off, you are waaaaay overthinking my statement. I was commenting on the value of consistency when it comes to wins and losses. So yes, I absolutely stand by my statement that you responded to. Though maybe I should have been more clear. The mention of Quincy Lewis was in regards to the consistency that he brought game in and game out, not statistics. But, if you want to play the numbers game ( which I do not ), It would be interesting to see how many of Rodney's numbers that you've referenced have come against sub-par competition (however you'd like to qualify that) and how much has come against the top half of the BIG ( Where most of us thought the Gophs would be this year). The bottom line is, the guy disappears for large chunks of games and large chunks of the schedule which creates a hole in the starting lineup that his chunks of unbelievable play cannot make up for. There are lots of names throughout the years that can be thrown out as examples of consistently bringing their best effort game in and game out..........Damien Johnson, Dusty Rychard, Mile Tarver for God's sake........
 

Illinois did a bad job getting back. It was probably their worst game of the year. When we run against a top 5 big ten team we are turning it over a lot. We have some talented players but most have their weaknesses. It is getting exploited by the better teams. It is hard to run in the big ten. Let's hope they make the dance and are able to run in the tourney.

Jibrahnike said:
Well, we only created 7 TO's against Illinois, yet Coleman had like 10 fast break dunks in that game. Why? Tubby used to have his guys push the ball up the court. He has told them to walk it up and run the shot clock down to 35 seconds now. The single biggest reason for our demise presently.
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BTen said:
First off, you are waaaaay overthinking my statement. I was commenting on the value of consistency when it comes to wins and losses. So yes, I absolutely stand by my statement that you responded to. Though maybe I should have been more clear. The mention of Quincy Lewis was in regards to the consistency that he brought game in and game out, not statistics. But, if you want to play the numbers game ( which I do not ), It would be interesting to see how many of Rodney's numbers that you've referenced have come against sub-par competition (however you'd like to qualify that) and how much has come against the top half of the BIG ( Where most of us thought the Gophs would be this year). The bottom line is, the guy disappears for large chunks of games and large chunks of the schedule which creates a hole in the starting lineup that his chunks of unbelievable play cannot make up for. There are lots of names throughout the years that can be thrown out as examples of consistently bringing their best effort game in and game out..........Damien Johnson, Dusty Rychard, Mile Tarver for God's sake........
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I just think we're arguing two different things. I don't disagree with anything in the bolded part. He's very inconsistent. I just think saying he's not a contributor or doesn't help this team win ever is ridiculous. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the part about competition, I compared this year's games against Duke, Memphis, and the top 5 in the BT vs. every one else.
vs. Top teams: 10.9 PTS, 5.1 REB, 1.1 AST, 1.4 BLK, 0.9 STL, 1.4 TO, 43.7% FG, 67.7% FT
vs. Everyone else: 11.6 PTS, 5.4 REB, 1.7 AST, 1.4 BLK, 0.9 STL, 1.8 TO, 53.5% FG, 65% FT

Last year against NCAA tourney teams vs. non-tourney teams.
vs. Top teams: 13.1 PTS, 6.5 REB, 1.7 AST, 1.3 BLK, 1.0 STL, 1.8 TO, 53.3% FG, 57.8% FT
vs. Everyone else: 11.9 PTS, 5.2 REB, 1.7 AST, 1.5 BLK, 1.4 STL, 1.4 TO, 57.9% FG, 59.8% FT
 

GophersInIowa said:
I just think we're arguing two different things. I don't disagree with anything in the bolded part. He's very inconsistent. I just think saying he's not a contributor or doesn't help this team win ever is ridiculous. I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

As for the part about competition, I compared this year's games against Duke, Memphis, and the top 5 in the BT vs. every one else.
vs. Top teams: 10.9 PTS, 5.1 REB, 1.1 AST, 1.4 BLK, 0.9 STL, 1.4 TO, 43.7% FG, 67.7% FT
vs. Everyone else: 11.6 PTS, 5.4 REB, 1.7 AST, 1.4 BLK, 0.9 STL, 1.8 TO, 53.5% FG, 65% FT

Last year against NCAA tourney teams vs. non-tourney teams.
vs. Top teams: 13.1 PTS, 6.5 REB, 1.7 AST, 1.3 BLK, 1.0 STL, 1.8 TO, 53.3% FG, 57.8% FT
vs. Everyone else: 11.9 PTS, 5.2 REB, 1.7 AST, 1.5 BLK, 1.4 STL, 1.4 TO, 57.9% FG, 59.8% FT
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Yeah, we are going to have to agree to dissagree. I think we are just looking at it from different perspectives. Very nice job on the stats though. There's no denying the positives in black and white when it comes to stats, but it's impossible to quantify the negatives as far as what is given up to an opponent when the drive and desire is almost never there for an entire game. Again, we'll just agree to dissagree..................I will say he's as entertaining a player as I've seen in person at the Barn ( and I've seen him play at least half his career home games live ), I just wouldn't put any money on the team he's a starter for in a big game.
 

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