Jim Delany: Still 'a little premature' to reduce Penn State sanctions

[MNGoldenGophers1]

I believe I was the one that brought the Catholic church into this thread. The bold is nowhere close the point I was trying to make.

It didn't help that I probably dropped the first bomb. While I believe KillJ and Go4Phil truly get it, I agree it is probably time to move on and keep the focus on the PSU situation.

Peace and Go Gophers!

 

[cncmin]

So you are offended? Ok, that is reasonable. But having read every post and made a few (and being Catholic myself), I don't see where you are getting your outrage. It happened, like PSU, the Church has acknowledged it happened and is in the process of compensating victims, etc, just like PSU. And just like PSU fans, many of my fellow Catholics would prefer to sweep it under the rug (which is kinda how we got here in the first place). And so I can accept you are offended, I won't accept the premise that your personal offense is reason enough to silence people who are making legitimate and reasonable arguments. Nobody is bashing the Church or PSU here...it happened, we are debating the punishment, whether their should be punishment and relating it to "out of sports" examples that closely mirror (although the Church was far worse in both it's offenses and cover ups for over a thousand years) each other.

It seems obvious that you're just grasping at some things here - PSU fans are not trying to sweep anything under a rug. What exactly could they possibly "hide" at this point?

What those of reasonable mind here would like is for authority to come down with level-headed penalties based on actual facts; and for that authority to be the appropriate one for the crimes committed: that being the LAW, instead of some tangential authority (NCAA) that piles on additional penalties solely predicated not on their own jurisdiction or following some historical context, but on appeasement of the masses.

PSU agreed to those sanctions because they had were given two choices: accept the sanctions or shut down the program. Who doesn't agree to the latter? If you take your own emotion out of the argument, can you honestly assess that as "fair"? It's not like they could have just refused the sanctions and then joined some other league.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

The point I was trying to make is institutions do not make these decisions. People representing or in charge of the institutions make these terrible decisions.

Sandusky is already in jail(most likely for life), and 'The Penn State Three' will be in court facing criminal charges soon.

Going to jail seems to me to be a bigger deterrent than having the university I formerly worked for lose scholarships and be bowl ineligible.

Agreed, I think I made an almost identical point when we had a thread after the sanctions first came down.

This almost seems like the opposite of an institutional problem. To me, there is an institutional problem if the channels do not exist for the relevant information to find its way uphill to the people in the right positions. In this case, the information did find its way up to those people, those people were just scumbags who are going to get exactly what they deserve in the prison showers.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

Agreed, I think I made an almost identical point when we had a thread after the sanctions first came down.

This almost seems like the opposite of an institutional problem. To me, there is an institutional problem if the channels do not exist for the relevant information to find its way uphill to the people in the right positions. In this case, the information did find its way up to those people, those people were just scumbags who are going to get exactly what they deserve in the prison showers.

Bleeds, you and 19 are at least rational in your arguments against institutional punishment (cncmin is out of his mind IMO). I would have agreed with you 20 years ago...but so much has happened in the last 20 years that has left me believing that institutional level punishment has to be part of it if you want to change long term corruption or lack of control. It isn't just the catholic church, or the many other religious groups that have been proved corrupt in recent history, it is also welfare, banking, real estate, stock markets, the world bank, universities, military (rape, racism & prejudice), corporations and political organizations that continue to do wrong beyond the removal of the persons shown to do wrong. Maybe PSU would have resolved itself without all the sanctions, IDK and neither do you.

What I do know is that I have many friends and colleagues that went to and/or work at a PSU campus (they have 20) and they are good people. PSU, as an institution, is one of the finest I have experienced. They do a lot of good. I also know that many people were involved in this cover up, and it went beyond the athletic department, which implies it is wide spread. To not make drastic corrective action, IMO, would have been far more dangerous, especially considering the nature of the crimes.

 

[cncmin]

Bleeds, you and 19 are at least rational in your arguments against institutional punishment (cncmin is out of his mind IMO). I would have agreed with you 20 years ago...but so much has happened in the last 20 years that has left me believing that institutional level punishment has to be part of it if you want to change long term corruption or lack of control. It isn't just the catholic church, or the many other religious groups that have been proved corrupt in recent history, it is also welfare, banking, real estate, stock markets, the world bank, universities, military (rape, racism & prejudice), corporations and political organizations that continue to do wrong beyond the removal of the persons shown to do wrong. Maybe PSU would have resolved itself without all the sanctions, IDK and neither do you.

What I do know is that I have many friends and colleagues that went to and/or work at a PSU campus (they have 20) and they are good people. PSU, as an institution, is one of the finest I have experienced. They do a lot of good. I also know that many people were involved in this cover up, and it went beyond the athletic department, which implies it is wide spread. To not make drastic corrective action, IMO, would have been far more dangerous, especially considering the nature of the crimes.

You seem very certain of yourself that you know all of the facts here. I will readily admit that I don't, mostly because the story as I've heard it through the media really doesn't much sense; so many broken and illogical stories and hypotheses. Honestly, I don't think anyone can make one consistent, factual story on this whole convoluted mess. But this isn't about me, I'm saying with a level head that overreaching and mob mentality does not solve problems.

This is about you and your certain self. How can you, like so many other members of the emotional mob, be so sure? This guy (see link below) says the whole story is media sensationalism (what, you mean the media sensationalizes? nahhh). It's an interesting read, whether you want to believe him or not. But certainly he brings up a vast number of credible reasons or hypotheses why the version of events residing in your head doesn't stack up well. Dismiss it if you want, but before preaching your personal sermons about the subject further and potentially damning the innocent, you should at least try to understand the situation in more detail, which as indicated by your posts here is akin to watching 5 minutes of SportsCenter on the subject. The narrative presented here, which usually attempts to take multiple viewpoints of each event based on large amounts of evidence (and perhaps too much conjecture) to piece together a somewhat coherent global hypothesis, is certainly as believable as anything else I've seen on the subject to this point.

http://www.framingpaterno.com/sites/default/files/The_Betrayal_of_Joe_Paterno_by_John_Ziegler_0.pdf

 

[station19]

http://www.framingpaterno.com/sites/default/files/The_Betrayal_of_Joe_Paterno_by_John_Ziegler_0.pdf[/QUOTE]

From the article..........it's loooooooooong.


"Finally, for some kicks and context, here are my current odds of some of the most important assertions in this case being
true:
Chances Joe Paterno knew Jerry Sandusky was a pedophile and proactively led a cover-up to protect him: 0%
Chances Joe Paterno thought Jerry Sandusky might have been a pedophile and purposely did nothing to stop him
because he feared bad publicity: 5%
Chances Joe Paterno thought that the Jerry Sandusky issue had been investigated and taken care of by others better
suited to do so and got extremely unlucky: 80%
Chances that Mike McQueary actually saw the “anal rape” of a child in the shower: 5%
Chances that Mike McQueary thought, in the years after the incident, that he had seen the “anal rape” of a child: 10%
Chances that Mike McQueary changed his mind about what he saw/heard nine years later when approached by
investigators: 70%
Chances that an overt sexual assault occurred the night of the McQueary incident: 15%
Chances that Jerry Sandusky ever “anally raped” a child: 20%
Chances that Jerry Sandusky ever forced boys into overt sex acts: 40%
Chances that Jerry Sandusky is a pedophile who acted in a criminal manner with boys: 99%"

 

[Deleted_User]

You seem very certain of yourself that you know all of the facts here. I will readily admit that I don't, mostly because the story as I've heard it through the media really doesn't much sense; so many broken and illogical stories and hypotheses. Honestly, I don't think anyone can make one consistent, factual story on this whole convoluted mess. But this isn't about me, I'm saying with a level head that overreaching and mob mentality does not solve problems.

This is about you and your certain self. How can you, like so many other members of the emotional mob, be so sure? This guy (see link below) says the whole story is media sensationalism (what, you mean the media sensationalizes? nahhh). It's an interesting read, whether you want to believe him or not. But certainly he brings up a vast number of credible reasons or hypotheses why the version of events residing in your head doesn't stack up well. Dismiss it if you want, but before preaching your personal sermons about the subject further and potentially damning the innocent, you should at least try to understand the situation in more detail, which as indicated by your posts here is akin to watching 5 minutes of SportsCenter on the subject. The narrative presented here, which usually attempts to take multiple viewpoints of each event based on large amounts of evidence (and perhaps too much conjecture) to piece together a somewhat coherent global hypothesis, is certainly as believable as anything else I've seen on the subject to this point.

http://www.framingpaterno.com/sites/default/files/The_Betrayal_of_Joe_Paterno_by_John_Ziegler_0.pdf

Cover ups usually distort what happened. The facts are clear.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

It is in ambiguity and half truths that evil thrives. When we stand up straight and fight for truth to be revealed, when we don't allow the ideal to be thwarted by fear or laziness, when we don't accept what is handed to us as truth, but instead demand truth be handed to us, we have a chance to eradicate evil in the moment. It will return, and the fight will continue, but as long as we keep fighting, truth will defeat evil. Good is a state of mind, truth, is the demonstrable rejection of evil. Truth is the light in the darkness.

That so many can be aware (admitted) to the possible rape of children and not do everything to investigate it, regardless of the reason, is where evil lived in this case. We may never get the truth because people have died, lied and time has passed. But what is not in doubt, to any that are involved, is that powerful men knew something wasn't right for a long time (ten plus years) and they did little to prevent it from happening again. This to me is what sickens me about this case and it is the men who did this that should be punished directly and are being punished directly.

That it occurred over such a long period of time, to so many children, with so many admittedly in the know, I find it almost impossible for more people to not have known, or heard, or overheard things and also didn't come forward. No way, in a work setting over a 10 year period, with several events and several different "witnesses" that the silence wasn't more than just the 3 on trial now, and Jerry & Joe Pa. Secrets aren't kept that well in any organization...and to me, this is why we have to punish the institution as well. Yes it punishes the innocent and guilty alike, but it also lays notice to everyone that secrets like this are far more damaging kept that letting the truth be revealed.

We see is too often where corporations pay the fine for wrong doing because the profit earned is 10 times the fine. The fine has to be a reason for soulless organizations to stop and think before acting, as a group, against what is right and honest. I have absolute faith that PSU will not only survive, but come back a better University because of this, much like the U being better after its own academic scandal.

 

[cncmin]

...
That so many can be aware (admitted) to the possible rape of children and not do everything to investigate it, regardless of the reason, is where evil lived in this case. We may never get the truth because people have died, lied and time has passed. But what is not in doubt, to any that are involved, is that powerful men knew something wasn't right for a long time (ten plus years) and they did little to prevent it from happening again. This to me is what sickens me about this case and it is the men who did this that should be punished directly and are being punished directly.

That it occurred over such a long period of time, to so many children, with so many admittedly in the know, I find it almost impossible for more people to not have known, or heard, or overheard things and also didn't come forward. No way, in a work setting over a 10 year period, with several events and several different "witnesses" that the silence wasn't more than just the 3 on trial now, and Jerry & Joe Pa. Secrets aren't kept that well in any organization...and to me, this is why we have to punish the institution as well. Yes it punishes the innocent and guilty alike, but it also lays notice to everyone that secrets like this are far more damaging kept that letting the truth be revealed.

We see is too often where corporations pay the fine for wrong doing because the profit earned is 10 times the fine. The fine has to be a reason for soulless organizations to stop and think before acting, as a group, against what is right and honest. I have absolute faith that PSU will not only survive, but come back a better University because of this, much like the U being better after its own academic scandal.

GopherinPhilly - I appreciate your post here, but by what you say in it I can tell that you didn't yet begin to read the online book that I linked above. Please do. It might make you less certain of your convictions here.

The actions that the "cover-up" actors are accused of taking at PSU simply are not rational actions of intelligent adults, all of which they were. No even slightly responsible person - repeat no one - and each of the "cover-up" actors were indeed very responsible people who cared very much for very many other people - would cover up child rape (well, at least other than the perpetrator). The actions by these people as portrayed in this book - whereby the author describes all of the "facts" and assertions laid out by the media that are simply proven to be false, and why those facts matter in relation to the general media narrative portrayed thereof (and even those in the infamous Freeh report), makes so much more logical sense than simply "they did it to win football games" or "they did it to protect the institution." I mean, that concept doesn't make hardly any sense at al - the first is almost laughable that anyone could actually believe that; the second largely because only by not acting could they have ever harmed the institution or their own happy careers.

And keep in mind that Paterno was in the midst of his only losing seasons at the time this was taking place, and the roar of the PSU fan-base that Paterno should be replaced (for being too old and losing football games) was growing quickly at that time; further, it is well known now that the administrators at Old Main wanted to replace Paterno around that very time - doesn't it seem odd to you then, that they wouldn't have utilized the opportunity to leverage at least the forced retirement of Paterno at that time? If anyone really believed that Paterno or anyone else was simply shrugging off something they all believed was serious, wouldn't that have been the perfect time to leverage the opportunity to get a new coaching staff in there? There have always been so many severe logical holes in the media-presented narrative of this story; but, that image of child rape (which apparently never actually occurred according to the testimony of "Victim #2" himself, as laid out in detail in the book) is so engrained in so many people's minds that it clouds their ability to judge this clearly and think it through. They think "anal rape of the helpless" and the only emotion left is anger and vindication, instead of logically reasoning out if the whole scenario makes any sense at all.

Well, that's my take on it anyway. It was nice debating with you. It is indeed a serious issue in both terms of the seriousness of child abuse and its unfortunate victims; but also in terms of what may here be the improper destroying of lives of either the innocent or at least the unintentionally ignorant. The image burned in people's minds about this will always be associated with PSU to a large portion of the American population, and it is most certainly not for the betterment of Penn State. I'm quite unsure that it should be that way. I do hope you read that book, acknowledging that it's a very long (but very interesting) read.

 

[cncmin]

Cover ups usually distort what happened. The facts are clear.

Eh, I'm just gonna delete this post.