Jim Delany: Still 'a little premature' to reduce Penn State sanctions

[station19]

Exactly - the punishments doled out were nothing more than to appease the mob that is the torch and pitchfork crowd looking for someone - something - tangible to burn aflame. And anytime one makes a reasonable statement about the situation and the overreach that has occurred by the emotional mob, the mob simply says "look at you, ignoring the victims!" As if these sanctions are going to somehow help the victims, who now have become infamous (and not that they necessarily wanted that), and who for the most part are Penn State football fans (which played a part in the whole ugly problem to begin with).

The guy who did the crimes is paying for them, people. No one associated with this mess remains at Penn State, and so who are those sanctions really punishing? An innocent student base? An innocent fan base? This doesn't make sense.

So true. They act as if the NCAA is the only one to punish PSU. One poster even said the NCAA must act because our legal system is not equipped to handle these matters.

Here's an update.
http://deadspin.com/tag/penn-state-scandal

 

[maxwellsmart]

While a tragic case altogether, the only people other than Sandusky - who was not employed by PSU at the time of the worst transgressions, but given access to PSU property as an emeritus - who have been accused of wrong-doing here are either dead or have claimed innocence. As far as I'm familiar, no one other than Sandusky has been convicted in a court of law. Yet, the NCAA (and Big Ten Conference, to some degree) laid out massive sanctions regardless while damning the name of the University. In this light, PSU fans and the student body indeed have reasons to be upset. Who's being more emotional here - the PSU fans and student body or you, as part of the torch and pitchfork crowd?

Giant helping of raspberries tuo this load of lionflop.

 

[maxwellsmart]

What is the purpose of the punishment given to penn state?

The only purpose punishment serves is to appease the mob

Believing this makes you part of the problem.

 

[husker70]

Was I on Mars? When this all came down, I was beamed a story that had the NCAA reviewing penalties and consulting with PSU Board of Regents. At the time the Dead Penalty was an option. The Board agreed to accept the 5 year plan. An accepting to penalties admitted there was a lack of institutional control. They saved the program from three people who covered up the crimes. They new about the Civil liabilities, accepted the recruiting restrictions, and the Conference stuff. They got off pretty light for failing. Failing to report what is mandatory. And when it was reported, did nothing. At this point there is nothing we can do for you either.

 

[ChicagoGopher]

A brief response to you . . . with all due "charity".

Understanding that this is a Gophers sports forum and not a place for dialogue about religion, I will be brief. I suggest you research what you apparently believe you are an expert on before you criticize someone's faith. Based upon your decision to attack the Catholic Church, I will assume you know a fair amount about the issue but I suggest you look a little deeper. Are there sinners in the church? Of course, the Catholic Church is made up of human beings and we all sin. However your post suggests that the Catholic Church has "gotten away with something" without paying a price. Below is an admittedly biased release from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops but I think it shows the efforts the church is going to to address the issue. Additionally, the church has paid in excess $2.5 billion to confront this issue.

The Catholic Church has done more to protect children than almost any other organization in the United States. Consider:
 Safe Environment training is taking place in 194 dioceses/eparchies of the country. Over 2 million adults have been trained to recognize the behavior of offenders and what to do about it.
 Over 5 million children are being equipped with the skills to help them protect themselves from abuse.
 Background checks are conducted on Church personnel who have contact with children. That is over 2.3 million volunteers, employees, candidates for ordination and clerics.
 All dioceses/eparchies have Codes of Conduct spelling out what is acceptable behavior. This serves to let people know what can and cannot be done as well as letting others know what behavior can be expected. It encourages the reporting of suspicious behavior.
 All dioceses/eparchies have Victim Assistance Coordinators, assuring victims that they will be heard. In 2012, $8,015,842 was spent on therapy for the victims of clergy sexual abuse.
 All dioceses/eparchies have Safe Environment Coordinators who assure the ongoing compliance to the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People.
 Bishops are meeting with victims.
 Dioceses/eparchies have Healing Masses, retreats for victim/survivors and other
reconciliation events.
 There is a Zero Tolerance policy on abusers since 2002. When even a single act of sexual abuse by a priest or deacon is admitted or is established after an appropriate process in accord with canon law, the offending priest or deacon will be removed permanently from ecclesiastical ministry, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, if the case so warrants (CIC, c. 1395 §2; CCEO, c. 1453 §1).4
 Dioceses/eparchies require intensive background screening as well as psychological testing for those wishing to enter the seminary.

The Catholic Church has worked hard to protect children. Much has been done but more needs to be done. Until child sexual abuse is no longer a part of society, the Church will continue its efforts to stop it.

And here is another article that specifically mentions Sandusky which, at least in part, acknowledges that this issue (a) is not unique to the Catholic Church and (b) also points out that Catholic Churches are among the absolutely safest places for children today. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-06-06/national/35460366_1_bishop-robert-finn-first-bishop-sexual-abuse

 

[Killjoy]

Understanding that this is a Gophers sports forum and not a place for dialogue about religion, I will be brief. I suggest you research what you apparently believe you are an expert on before you criticize someone's faith. Based upon your decision to attack the Catholic Church, I will assume you know a fair amount about the issue but I suggest you look a little deeper. Are there sinners in the church? Of course, the Catholic Church is made up of human beings and we all sin. However your post suggests that the Catholic Church has "gotten away with something" without paying a price. Below is an admittedly biased release from the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops but I think it shows the efforts the church is going to to address the issue. Additionally, the church has paid in excess $2.5 billion to confront this issue.

The Catholic Church has done more to protect children than almost any other organization in the United States. Consider:
 Safe Environment training is taking place in 194 dioceses/eparchies of the country. Over 2 million adults have been trained to recognize the behavior of offenders and what to do about it.
 Over 5 million children are being equipped with the skills to help them protect themselves from abuse.
 Background checks are conducted on Church personnel who have contact with children. That is over 2.3 million volunteers, employees, candidates for ordination and clerics.
 All dioceses/eparchies have Codes of Conduct spelling out what is acceptable behavior. This serves to let people know what can and cannot be done as well as letting others know what behavior can be expected. It encourages the reporting of suspicious behavior.
 All dioceses/eparchies have Victim Assistance Coordinators, assuring victims that they will be heard. In 2012, $8,015,842 was spent on therapy for the victims of clergy sexual abuse.
 All dioceses/eparchies have Safe Environment Coordinators who assure the ongoing compliance to the Charter for the Protection of Children and Young People.
 Bishops are meeting with victims.
 Dioceses/eparchies have Healing Masses, retreats for victim/survivors and other
reconciliation events.
 There is a Zero Tolerance policy on abusers since 2002. When even a single act of sexual abuse by a priest or deacon is admitted or is established after an appropriate process in accord with canon law, the offending priest or deacon will be removed permanently from ecclesiastical ministry, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, if the case so warrants (CIC, c. 1395 §2; CCEO, c. 1453 §1).4
 Dioceses/eparchies require intensive background screening as well as psychological testing for those wishing to enter the seminary.

The Catholic Church has worked hard to protect children. Much has been done but more needs to be done. Until child sexual abuse is no longer a part of society, the Church will continue its efforts to stop it.

And here is another article that specifically mentions Sandusky which, at least in part, acknowledges that this issue (a) is not unique to the Catholic Church and (b) also points out that Catholic Churches are among the absolutely safest places for children today. http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2012-06-06/national/35460366_1_bishop-robert-finn-first-bishop-sexual-abuse

I am sorry about this but I can't let propaganda like this go unchallenged. First point is that this does not belong here but since you have tried to paint a false picture of the Catholic church I must point out that the Catholic church has a long history of abuse of power. To keep this short I will name just three of many examples that immediately come to mind. 1. The Catholic church called and punished Galileo as a heretic for saying that the earth went around the sun. With their usual speed they finally admitted in the 20th century that Galileo was right. 2. The Catholic church signed a secret pack with Hitler and only disowned him after he was dead. 3. The Magdalene Sisters laundry operated by nuns in Ireland was a an unbelievable cruel and oppressive organization to girls. The true story about what happened there was hidden from the public until people finally began talking about it.

This is just the tip of the ice berg. So please don't bring your revisionist history to this blog anymore.

 

[ChicagoGopher]

My only response to this is that you've spent far too much time reading Dan Brown novels. Revisionist history - seriously? Did I ever say that the Catholic Church is without any fault through 2000+ years of history? I actually said just the opposite if you re-read my original post. That said, I can see that there is a lot of anger in your post. I can only assume it the Galileo thing that set you over the edge. May God bless you (and I mean that sincerely and not sarcastically).

 

[GopherinPhilly]

So true. They act as if the NCAA is the only one to punish PSU. One poster even said the NCAA must act because our legal system is not equipped to handle these matters.

Here's an update.
http://deadspin.com/tag/penn-state-scandal

So by this logic, no sanctions should ever be doled out as long as the coach/players/admin are gone from the school? Even if the infraction was systemic such as was the case with the cheating scandal at the U?

Personally, I would struggle to see how this would stop systemic abuse by institutions when they could merely fire all involved and move on with new people...who could do the same crime until caught and then repeat again (see what is happening in the banking industry for how this type of punishment works).

I don't cry "but the victims!" I do cry punish institutions or you won't change the culture. The U was punished for allowing the cheating and now, I have full confidence that we are running clean programs. I can all but guarantee that PSU will have written rules in place and training and follow up so that this doesn't happen again precisely because the punishment to the institution was so severe.

The legal system is there to protect the victims and punish the criminals...sanctions by the NCAA & B1G are there to ensure that this never happens again...and I, for one, and glad that they did this, just as I was glad they did what they did to the U. I felt bad personally for my team and my school...but they were allowing systemic cheating (and in PSU's case, raping children) and they got caught and should be punished.

You all talk about how the current players, students & fans didn't do these crimes and are being punished unfairly and that is why the institution shouldn't be punished. False Premise. They are not being punished unfairly...these groups chose to stick with PSU, they could have chosen another school. None are forced to be there.

 

[station19]

So by this logic, no sanctions should ever be doled out as long as the coach/players/admin are gone from the school? Even if the infraction was systemic such as was the case with the cheating scandal at the U?

Personally, I would struggle to see how this would stop systemic abuse by institutions when they could merely fire all involved and move on with new people...who could do the same crime until caught and then repeat again (see what is happening in the banking industry for how this type of punishment works).

I don't cry "but the victims!" I do cry punish institutions or you won't change the culture. The U was punished for allowing the cheating and now, I have full confidence that we are running clean programs. I can all but guarantee that PSU will have written rules in place and training and follow up so that this doesn't happen again precisely because the punishment to the institution was so severe.

The legal system is there to protect the victims and punish the criminals...sanctions by the NCAA & B1G are there to ensure that this never happens again...and I, for one, and glad that they did this, just as I was glad they did what they did to the U. I felt bad personally for my team and my school...but they were allowing systemic cheating (and in PSU's case, raping children) and they got caught and should be punished.

You all talk about how the current players, students & fans didn't do these crimes and are being punished unfairly and that is why the institution shouldn't be punished. False Premise. They are not being punished unfairly...these groups chose to stick with PSU, they could have chosen another school. None are forced to be there.

Who is the they and which would be more of a deterrent?

A. Loss of scholarships for the team
Team ineligible to play in bowl games
Wins turned to losses in team record
Wins turned to losses in coaches record.
School being fined $60 million by ncaa


B. Loss of job and any future in same field, if not all fields
Face Criminal charges and spend time in jail(possibly life)
Face civil charges
School losing $60+ million in civil suits.

"I can all but guarantee that PSU will have written rules in place and training and follow up so that this doesn't happen again precisely because the punishment to the institution was so severe."

And only the ncaa sanctions would be responsible for that?

 

[Killjoy]

My only response to this is that you've spent far too much time reading Dan Brown novels. Revisionist history - seriously? Did I ever say that the Catholic Church is without any fault through 2000+ years of history? I actually said just the opposite if you re-read my original post. That said, I can see that there is a lot of anger in your post. I can only assume it the Galileo thing that set you over the edge. May God bless you (and I mean that sincerely and not sarcastically).

LOL - So you think that I get my opinions on the Catholic church from reading Dan Brown's novels? If you believe that you probably believe that the pope is also infallible. The good news is that more and more Catholics, especially in Europe and United States are realizing that their church is out of touch with reality on so many issues such as birth control, celibacy, divorce, women's role in the church, etc. etc. But I am going to end my comments now because this is not place for this kind of discussion. I do request you do likewise and refrain from posting any more of your beliefs about the Catholic church.

 

[wohnypony]

Who is the they and which would be more of a deterrent?

A. Loss of scholarships for the team
Team ineligible to play in bowl games
Wins turned to losses in team record
Wins turned to losses in coaches record.
School being fined $60 million by ncaa


B. Loss of job and any future in same field, if not all fields
Face Criminal charges and spend time in jail(possibly life)
Face civil charges
School losing $60+ million in civil suits.

Both because you are dealing with deterring two different entities. A. deters organizations from losing institutional control, and B. deters the individual.

 

[station19]

Both because you are dealing with deterring two different entities. A. deters organizations from losing institutional control, and B. deters the individual.

All decisions are made by individuals. Buildings and bank accounts don't make decisions.

 

[husker70]

All decisions are made by individuals. Buildings and bank accounts don't make decisions.

This has nothing to do with buildings nor bank accounts. It is about a culture of cover up. The three stooges, Spanier, Shultz, and Curly choose support the program at any cost. It could be said they all had jobs beholding to the success of Joe Paterno. They failed in two areas, first failure to report. They were mandatory reporters and did not report this to the police. Second, they covered the issue up. That is not only lack of institutional control, but criminal on many levels.

The Penn State Three Criminal trial is just getting started.

The sanctions from NCAA and Big 10 were measured at the time, but in many minds not nearly enough.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

My only response to this is that you've spent far too much time reading Dan Brown novels. Revisionist history - seriously? Did I ever say that the Catholic Church is without any fault through 2000+ years of history? I actually said just the opposite if you re-read my original post. That said, I can see that there is a lot of anger in your post. I can only assume it the Galileo thing that set you over the edge. May God bless you (and I mean that sincerely and not sarcastically).

Wow, you are out of your mind and allowing your faith to be swayed by false profits. The Catholic Church, of which I am a former member, has a 1700 year history of atrocities against members of other religions, women & non-believers. From the crusades & witch hunts to their involvement in politics & money laundering, the inhumane treatment of children workers, railing against women's rights and covering up homosexual and child molestation among it's Priests for 1,000 years. You should maybe read some books written by real historians and former Priest's and members of the Church. This ample evidence of the Church's history of abuse.

 

[Killjoy]

Wow, you are out of your mind and allowing your faith to be swayed by false profits. The Catholic Church, of which I am a former member, has a 1700 year history of atrocities against members of other religions, women & non-believers. From the crusades & witch hunts to their involvement in politics & money laundering, the inhumane treatment of children workers, railing against women's rights and covering up homosexual and child molestation among it's Priests for 1,000 years. You should maybe read some books written by real historians and former Priest's and members of the Church. This ample evidence of the Church's history of abuse.

Thank you GopherinPhilly for stating more direct and succinctly the point that I was trying to make.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

Oh good, for a second I was concerned that this thread couldn't get any more stupid. For anyone who says "just don't click on it", I clicked on a thread expecting to find discussion of PSU sanctions. If the thread were titled "Holy War", I understand that I would have no one but myself to blame.

 

[mplsbadger]

Enough already. Can we lock this thread before we alienate a third of all the people who visit Gopherhole? The Gophers need all the fans they can get.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

Oh good, for a second I was concerned that this thread couldn't get any more stupid. For anyone who says "just don't click on it", I clicked on a thread expecting to find discussion of PSU sanctions. If the thread were titled "Holy War", I understand that I would have no one but myself to blame.

While I didn't initially bring it up, there is a correlation between the PSU issue and the Catholic Church. Yes this is a football forum, but it is also current and relevant.

It would be no different than if someone compared Head Coach's salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation. It is current and relevant.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

While I didn't initially bring it up, there is a correlation between the PSU issue and the Catholic Church. Yes this is a football forum, but it is also current and relevant.

It would be no different than if someone compared Head Coach's salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation. It is current and relevant.

The comparison has been pushed way beyond its useful point and has turned into an argument of people attacking/defending a particular religious organization. It is not like someone just compared head coach salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation. Instead, it is like someone compared head coach salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation, and then we followed it up with multiple angry posts arguing about whether or not Target's CEO makes too much money.

 

[Deleted_User]

The comparison has been pushed way beyond its useful point and has turned into an argument of people attacking/defending a particular religious organization. It is not like someone just compared head coach salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation. Instead, it is like someone compared head coach salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation, and then we followed it up with multiple angry posts arguing about whether or not Target's CEO makes too much money.

^ This is why the off topic board was created, imho. So, I agree with your general premise. Although, I flat out disagree with your above analogy. Weak.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

The comparison has been pushed way beyond its useful point and has turned into an argument of people attacking/defending a particular religious organization. It is not like someone just compared head coach salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation. Instead, it is like someone compared head coach salaries and player comps to CEO salaries and worker compensation, and then we followed it up with multiple angry posts arguing about whether or not Target's CEO makes too much money.

So you are offended? Ok, that is reasonable. But having read every post and made a few (and being Catholic myself), I don't see where you are getting your outrage. It happened, like PSU, the Church has acknowledged it happened and is in the process of compensating victims, etc, just like PSU. And just like PSU fans, many of my fellow Catholics would prefer to sweep it under the rug (which is kinda how we got here in the first place). And so I can accept you are offended, I won't accept the premise that your personal offense is reason enough to silence people who are making legitimate and reasonable arguments. Nobody is bashing the Church or PSU here...it happened, we are debating the punishment, whether their should be punishment and relating it to "out of sports" examples that closely mirror (although the Church was far worse in both it's offenses and cover ups for over a thousand years) each other.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

^ This is why the off topic board was created, imho. So, I agree with your general premise. Although, I flat out disagree with your above analogy. Weak.

While the thread meandered, it is still about punishment of the institution, just pulling in other examples. Funny, I said worse things about the banks but nobody came to their defense.

 

[Deleted_User]

While the thread meandered, it is still about punishment of the institution, just pulling in other examples. Funny, I said worse things about the banks but nobody came to their defense.

Point taken.

 

[GopherinPhilly]

Point taken.
Last edited by Dean S; Today at 04:12 PM. Reason: eliminating the vulgar.

I saw your edit reason and have been playing adlibs on all the different swear words I could use with your basic statement and got up to 9 solid choices and enjoyed every one of them.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

So you are offended? Ok, that is reasonable. But having read every post and made a few (and being Catholic myself), I don't see where you are getting your outrage. It happened, like PSU, the Church has acknowledged it happened and is in the process of compensating victims, etc, just like PSU. And just like PSU fans, many of my fellow Catholics would prefer to sweep it under the rug (which is kinda how we got here in the first place). And so I can accept you are offended, I won't accept the premise that your personal offense is reason enough to silence people who are making legitimate and reasonable arguments. Nobody is bashing the Church or PSU here...it happened, we are debating the punishment, whether their should be punishment and relating it to "out of sports" examples that closely mirror (although the Church was far worse in both it's offenses and cover ups for over a thousand years) each other.

I am neither offended nor outraged. And I wholeheartedly agree with you that if I were offended, that would be no reason to silence legitimate and reasonable arguments. My initial comment was just me venting with two sentences at how offtrack the thread had gotten. I don't have any problem with someone saying "the NCAA should take X course of action because it had some success with similar problems in the Catholic church" or "the NCAA should not do Y because it did nothing to stem the problems in the Catholic church", or with somebody responding "I understand where you are coming from, but we cannot assume that course of action X or Y will have the same effect, because a college sports environment is materially different from an organized religion for the following reasons." What was bothering me was an argument about religion where several of the posts where making no connection to the PSU situation, people were just arguing about religion. I don't care that people want to argue about religion, and none of the posts on either side bothered me because of their content, it should just take place on a different forum. I just thought that, while the Catholic church analogy is relevant to the discussion, the pissing match involved in some of the individual posts about Catholicism was not. The fact that we can draw relevant comparisons to the institutional issues of the Catholic church does not necessarily mean that anything that involves Catholicism is on topic.

To sum it up, all that I was saying was that we had gotten off topic. I am also not blind to the irony/hypocrisy in the fact that I took a thread that I thought had gotten off topic, and then I steered it into a new off topic discussion about whether the original tangent was really off topic.

 

[station19]

I am neither offended nor outraged. And I wholeheartedly agree with you that if I were offended, that would be no reason to silence legitimate and reasonable arguments. My initial comment was just me venting with two sentences at how offtrack the thread had gotten. I don't have any problem with someone saying "the NCAA should take X course of action because it had some success with similar problems in the Catholic church" or "the NCAA should not do Y because it did nothing to stem the problems in the Catholic church", or with somebody responding "I understand where you are coming from, but we cannot assume that course of action X or Y will have the same effect, because a college sports environment is materially different from an organized religion for the following reasons." What was bothering me was an argument about religion where several of the posts where making no connection to the PSU situation, people were just arguing about religion. I don't care that people want to argue about religion, and none of the posts on either side bothered me because of their content, it should just take place on a different forum. I just thought that, while the Catholic church analogy is relevant to the discussion, the pissing match involved in some of the individual posts about Catholicism was not. The fact that we can draw relevant comparisons to the institutional issues of the Catholic church does not necessarily mean that anything that involves Catholicism is on topic.

To sum it up, all that I was saying was that we had gotten off topic. I am also not blind to the irony/hypocrisy in the fact that I took a thread that I thought had gotten off topic, and then I steered it into a new off topic discussion about whether the original tangent was really off topic.

I believe I was the one that brought the Catholic church into this thread. The bold is nowhere close the point I was trying to make.

 

[bleedsmaroonandgold]

I believe I was the one that brought the Catholic church into this thread. The bold is nowhere close the point I was trying to make.

It wasn't, but you were still making an argument that was connected to the topic. I had no problem with your comment 19. I didn't have a big problem with anyone's comment, this all started with two smart ass sentences I wrote about my perception that the thread veering off topic and just snowballed. I was rude and sarcastic, I apologize. Either way, my initial post was not at all directed to you.

 

[station19]

It wasn't, but you were still making an argument that was connected to the topic. I had no problem with your comment 19. I didn't have a big problem with anyone's comment, this all started with two smart ass sentences I wrote about my perception that the thread veering off topic and just snowballed. I was rude and sarcastic, I apologize. Either way, my initial post was not at all directed to you.

I was just trying to point out to everyone that that is not where I was going. No need to apologize.

 

[cncmin]

Both because you are dealing with deterring two different entities. A. deters organizations from losing institutional control, and B. deters the individual.

Your statement on A. makes little sense - in case you missed it, let's repeat: no one associated with this mess remains at the university. Individuals and their actions make up an organization. Individuals who mess up pay a personal price; they take down innocent (the organization itself and other associated) around them in the process. The organization (PSU) was hurt extremely badly in many ways without any NCAA sanctions, as laid out in Station's B. items, and including but not limited to massive payouts to civil suit claims and a permanent black stain on the name of the institution. The NCAA didn't have to do anything at all for the institution to feel pain; but they poured it on to appease the reactionaries; whose opinion was largely made up by the garbage the sensationalistic media was feeding them on a daily basis.

 

[station19]

]Both because you are dealing with deterring two different entities. A. deters organizations from losing institutional control, and B. deters the individual.[/B]

This has nothing to do with buildings nor bank accounts. It is about a culture of cover up. The three stooges, Spanier, Shultz, and Curly choose support the program at any cost. It could be said they all had jobs beholding to the success of Joe Paterno. They failed in two areas, first failure to report. They were mandatory reporters and did not report this to the police. Second, they covered the issue up. That is not only lack of institutional control, but criminal on many levels.

The Penn State Three Criminal trial is just getting started.

The sanctions from NCAA and Big 10 were measured at the time, but in many minds not nearly enough.

The point I was trying to make is institutions do not make these decisions. People representing or in charge of the institutions make these terrible decisions.

Sandusky is already in jail(most likely for life), and 'The Penn State Three' will be in court facing criminal charges soon.

Going to jail seems to me to be a bigger deterrent than having the university I formerly worked for lose scholarships and be bowl ineligible.