Jelly Transferring

[jamiche]

The crowd on this board who thinks Jelly was mistreated here always point to Stull.

So let's be really clear on this, Stull was not good at all either.
Let's also break down the argument:
(1) Washington played 40% MORE minutes than Brock Stull. He got more run, considerably more run;
(2) They both played positions of absolute need. We were a horrible shooting team and Brock Stull shot over 40% on 3's. We didn't have a PG and Isaiah Washington was a point guard;
(3) The fact that NEITHER of them earned more minutes, despite being positions/roles of need, tells you that they struggled a bit;
(4) Playing a PG, a person who has the ball in their hand on every play, who is struggling is considerably more dangerous than playing a wing who is struggling.

Point #4 also applies to Michael Hurt.

He didn't play 40% more than Stull the second half of the season (which was most of the B1G). Also, IIRC, Jelly started the B1G tourney game when a bunch of people were hurt and it didn't matter because they had clinched the NCAA's. (I could be wrong on that.) Pitino basically buried Jelly during the most important part of the schedule and gave the minutes to a player who couldn't move the needle.

I'm not arguing that Jelly was a great player or that he didn't make mistakes. I'm arguing that he had skills that Stull lacked, in a position of need, and Pitino blew them off.

 

[builtbadgers]

He didn't play 40% more than Stull the second half of the season (which was most of the B1G). Also, IIRC, Jelly started the B1G tourney game when a bunch of people were hurt and it didn't matter because they had clinched the NCAA's. (I could be wrong on that.) Pitino basically buried Jelly during the most important part of the schedule and gave the minutes to a player who couldn't move the needle.

I'm not arguing that Jelly was a great player or that he didn't make mistakes. I'm arguing that he had upside that Stull lacked, in a position of need, and Pitino blew it off.

Your right about the upside but day after day in practice it simply remained upside for IW and downside for the team. I believe this was handled very well by Pitino. My opinion.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

He didn't play 40% more than Stull the second half of the season (which was most of the B1G). Also, IIRC, Jelly started the B1G tourney game when a bunch of people were hurt and it didn't matter because they had clinched the NCAA's. (I could be wrong on that.) Pitino basically buried Jelly during the most important part of the schedule and gave the minutes to a player who couldn't move the needle.

I'm not arguing that Jelly was a great player or that he didn't make mistakes. I'm arguing that he had skills that Stull lacked, in a position of need, and Pitino blew them off.

(1) Why does it matter when Jelly got his minutes? He got way more minutes than Stull. He had every opportunity to really showcase his ability during the non-conference, which he failed.
(2) Jelly played 11 total minutes in the Big 10 Tournament. In that same game, Brock Still played 9 minutes.
(3) Of course Pitino buried Jelly during the Big 10 tourament, he played horrible.
(4) Jelly could dribble the basketball, Stull could shoot the ball. We lacked BOTH skills. Unfortunately for Jelly, his weaknesses caused a much bigger risk to the team than Stull's.
(5) Lastly, Jelly played WAY more than Stull. He got more of a chance than Stull and he was terrible and pouted.

 

[Some guy]

Washington and Pitino both handled things pretty well IMO


Clearly there was a disconnect.
They both were professional and classy.
Neither let it become a distraction to the team.
I applaud them both and hope Washington has a good experience at his next stop.

 

[MennoSota]

Washington and Pitino both handled things pretty well IMO


Clearly there was a disconnect.
They both were professional and classy.
Neither let it become a distraction to the team.
I applaud them both and hope Washington has a good experience at his next stop.

Yep, I think that's the general consensus. IW seems like a nice mid-major player. I wish him the best and hope he gets an outstanding education.

 

[Lakers612]

If Coffey indeed goes pro is there a chance that Washington comes back to Minnesota? We would need a backup ball-handler. Can't imagine Washington is worse than a potential JUCO transfer

 

[SelectionSunday]

If Coffey indeed goes pro is there a chance that Washington comes back to Minnesota? We would need a backup ball-handler. Can't imagine Washington is worse than a potential JUCO transfer

Not happening.

 

[jamiche]

(1) Why does it matter when Jelly got his minutes? He got way more minutes than Stull. He had every opportunity to really showcase his ability during the non-conference, which he failed.
(2) Jelly played 11 total minutes in the Big 10 Tournament. In that same game, Brock Still played 9 minutes.
(3) Of course Pitino buried Jelly during the Big 10 tourament, he played horrible.
(4) Jelly could dribble the basketball, Stull could shoot the ball. We lacked BOTH skills. Unfortunately for Jelly, his weaknesses caused a much bigger risk to the team than Stull's.
(5) Lastly, Jelly played WAY more than Stull. He got more of a chance than Stull and he was terrible and pouted.

Preseason is close to meaningless. How many years have the gophers gone 11-1, 12-0, 10-2, etc in the preseason and finished under .500 in the B1G. A lot. When the minutes counted Pitino buried Jelly and went with the player who was a non factor or negative factor outside of the two shots he hit against WI in Jan. If Pitino had benched Jelly in favor a player who did anything, I would have agreed with the move. He didn’t. Stull doing nothing to help the team contributed to as many defeats as Jelly’s erratic play.


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[stocker08]

I wish him luck wherever he goes and will certainly root for him to succeed. It couldn't have been easy riding the pine while your team competes. I'd still like to know what exactly went down.

 

[stocker08]

Preseason is close to meaningless. How many years have the gophers gone 11-1, 12-0, 10-2, etc in the preseason and finished under .500 in the B1G. A lot. When the minutes counted Pitino buried Jelly and went with the player who was a non factor or negative factor outside of the two shots he hit against WI in Jan. If Pitino had benched Jelly in favor a player who did anything, I would have agreed with the move. He didn’t. Stull doing nothing to help the team contributed to as many defeats as Jelly’s erratic play.


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+08

Sure....his play was erratic.....but him transferring is not only depleting our depth.....but we also don't know how he could have contributed in the upcoming years.

 

[Tucker32]

Preseason is close to meaningless. How many years have the gophers gone 11-1, 12-0, 10-2, etc in the preseason and finished under .500 in the B1G. A lot. When the minutes counted Pitino buried Jelly and went with the player who was a non factor or negative factor outside of the two shots he hit against WI in Jan. If Pitino had benched Jelly in favor a player who did anything, I would have agreed with the move. He didn’t. Stull doing nothing to help the team contributed to as many defeats as Jelly’s erratic play.


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What is so hard for you to figure out? He didn’t bury him as a personal gripe. He buried him because he couldn’t trust him to make the right pass, be in position on defense, etc. for every good play he made, he made two bad ones. You can’t afford to have a player like that on the floor. It’s really not that hard to see.


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[GFBfan]

Preseason is close to meaningless. How many years have the gophers gone 11-1, 12-0, 10-2, etc in the preseason and finished under .500 in the B1G. A lot. When the minutes counted Pitino buried Jelly and went with the player who was a non factor or negative factor outside of the two shots he hit against WI in Jan. If Pitino had benched Jelly in favor a player who did anything, I would have agreed with the move. He didn’t. Stull doing nothing to help the team contributed to as many defeats as Jelly’s erratic play.


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You’re making a great point here, but not in the way you intended.
Isaiah got minutes in the preseason when, as you say, games don’t really matter. In his time he showed the staff that although he could be good to brilliant in spurts, he also showed an alarming tendency to make really bad plays and couldn’t be counted on to do the right things on BOTH ends of the floor. Thus the staff didn’t have enough trust in him to play more minutes when the games really mattered in the BIG.
They were more comfortable giving the minutes to Amir, Gabe and Dupree with a few to Brock rather than Isaiah. They felt those players would be more consistent on BOTH ends of the floor in those tight games.


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[Bob_Loblaw]

Preseason is close to meaningless. How many years have the gophers gone 11-1, 12-0, 10-2, etc in the preseason and finished under .500 in the B1G. A lot. When the minutes counted Pitino buried Jelly and went with the player who was a non factor or negative factor outside of the two shots he hit against WI in Jan. If Pitino had benched Jelly in favor a player who did anything, I would have agreed with the move. He didn’t. Stull doing nothing to help the team contributed to as many defeats as Jelly’s erratic play.


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You think the games before the Big 10 are meaningless? Even for people trying to earn playing time (like Jelly)? I would bet Pitino didn't think they were meaningless with building his trust in Gabe and Oturu.

You're proving my point, Pitino GAVE him a chance in the "meaningless" preaseason games. He did nothing with that chance.

We did play some decent teams in the "preseason"( Boston College, Washington, Utah)
Jelly's numbers: 56 minutes - 15% FG shooting (4 of 26) - 7 assists/6 TOs

Additionally, if you wanted to ignore the preseason (for whatever reason), then we should also ignore the couple of games against Omaha and North Florida that really bumped up all of Jelly's stats.

Now to your main point, despite Pitino giving Washington every chance to showcase himself in the preaseason, he still played 19% more minutes in Big Ten/tournament games than Stull.

I'm not defending Stull. I thought he was awful all year. But I am dumbfounded by the narrative some people are pushing on this board about Washington. Why are you so dug in on this? You, clearly, have come to your conclusion without any logic or facts. It's why you've said things like "well, Jelly's minutes were in the preseason, and that was meaningless" and ""Jelly got a lot of minutes in a meaningless tournament game", blah blah blah.

Isaiah Washington had every chance in the "preseason" to showcase his abilities. He did not. He continued get some run in the Big 10 (more than Stull), and he was never impressive. He was a liability on the court and we were fighting to make the NCAA. Why would a coach, especially a coach fighting for his job, play Washington more? What nefarious part of Pitino are you alluding to?

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

You’re making a great point here, but not in the way you intended.
Isaiah got minutes in the preseason when, as you say, games don’t really matter. In his time he showed the staff that although he could be good to brilliant in spurts, he also showed an alarming tendency to make really bad plays and couldn’t be counted on to do the right things on BOTH ends of the floor. Thus the staff didn’t have enough trust in him to play more minutes when the games really mattered in the BIG.
They were more comfortable giving the minutes to Amir, Gabe and Dupree with a few to Brock rather than Isaiah. They felt those players would be more consistent on BOTH ends of the floor in those tight games.


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He played more minutes than Stull in the Big 10 too. He had opportunity to showcase himself. He was abysmal against decent competition and just "meh" against bad competition.

 

[BarnBurner]

You think the games before the Big 10 are meaningless? Even for people trying to earn playing time (like Jelly)? I would bet Pitino didn't think they were meaningless with building his trust in Gabe and Oturu.

You're proving my point, Pitino GAVE him a chance in the "meaningless" preaseason games. He did nothing with that chance.

We did play some decent teams in the "preseason"( Boston College, Washington, Utah)
Jelly's numbers: 56 minutes - 15% FG shooting (4 of 26) - 7 assists/6 TOs

Additionally, if you wanted to ignore the preseason (for whatever reason), then we should also ignore the couple of games against Omaha and North Florida that really bumped up all of Jelly's stats.

Now to your main point, despite Pitino giving Washington every chance to showcase himself in the preaseason, he still played 19% more minutes in Big Ten/tournament games than Stull.

I'm not defending Stull. I thought he was awful all year. But I am dumbfounded by the narrative some people are pushing on this board about Washington. Why are you so dug in on this? You, clearly, have come to your conclusion without any logic or facts. It's why you've said things like "well, Jelly's minutes were in the preseason, and that was meaningless" and ""Jelly got a lot of minutes in a meaningless tournament game", blah blah blah.

Isaiah Washington had every chance in the "preseason" to showcase his abilities. He did not. He continued get some run in the Big 10 (more than Stull), and he was never impressive. He was a liability on the court and we were fighting to make the NCAA. Why would a coach, especially a coach fighting for his job, play Washington more? What nefarious part of Pitino are you alluding to?

Nailed it.

Jamm jamm has the blinders on very tight. Typical.

 

[jamiche]

You think the games before the Big 10 are meaningless? Even for people trying to earn playing time (like Jelly)? I would bet Pitino didn't think they were meaningless with building his trust in Gabe and Oturu.

You're proving my point, Pitino GAVE him a chance in the "meaningless" preaseason games. He did nothing with that chance.

We did play some decent teams in the "preseason"( Boston College, Washington, Utah)
Jelly's numbers: 56 minutes - 15% FG shooting (4 of 26) - 7 assists/6 TOs

Additionally, if you wanted to ignore the preseason (for whatever reason), then we should also ignore the couple of games against Omaha and North Florida that really bumped up all of Jelly's stats.

Now to your main point, despite Pitino giving Washington every chance to showcase himself in the preaseason, he still played 19% more minutes in Big Ten/tournament games than Stull.

I'm not defending Stull. I thought he was awful all year. But I am dumbfounded by the narrative some people are pushing on this board about Washington. Why are you so dug in on this? You, clearly, have come to your conclusion without any logic or facts. It's why you've said things like "well, Jelly's minutes were in the preseason, and that was meaningless" and ""Jelly got a lot of minutes in a meaningless tournament game", blah blah blah.

Isaiah Washington had every chance in the "preseason" to showcase his abilities. He did not. He continued get some run in the Big 10 (more than Stull), and he was never impressive. He was a liability on the court and we were fighting to make the NCAA. Why would a coach, especially a coach fighting for his job, play Washington more? What nefarious part of Pitino are you alluding to?

Given the lack of depth, Pitino didn't have good options. Stull didn't impact the game in any positive way, but Jelly did in one important way. In the N/C games Stull played 97 minutes and shot 9/19 from the field with six assists and five TO's. Jelly played 202 minutes and was 22 for 88 from the field with 50 assists and 18 turnovers. In the B1G Jelly had 29 assists and 16 TO's. Stull had 13 assists and 11 TO's. In the B1G Jelly was 24/64 from the field and Stull was 6/27.

Jelly's passing was what made him valuable and differentiated him from Stull and the other players. That was the head scratcher for me. For all of his deficits, he was the only player on the team who could loosen things up for other players and Pitino didn't use him enough off of the bench. Even if his absolute minutes were more than Stull's, the differentiation wasn't great enough, to the detriment of the team. Jelly could make passes that no one else on the team could.

I think it's too easy to say that Pitino was justified in not trusting Jelly, especially if the option was Stull. Even with all of his mistakes, he contributed much more to the team and he was a good passer, which made him a unique asset.

 

[GFBfan]

Given the lack of depth, Pitino didn't have good options. Stull didn't impact the game in any positive way, but Jelly did in one important way. In the N/C games Stull played 97 minutes and shot 9/19 from the field with six assists and five TO's. Jelly played 202 minutes and was 22 for 88 from the field with 50 assists and 18 turnovers. In the B1G Jelly had 29 assists and 16 TO's. Stull had 13 assists and 11 TO's. In the B1G Jelly was 24/64 from the field and Stull was 6/27.

Jelly's passing was what made him valuable and differentiated him from Stull and the other players. That was the head scratcher for me. For all of his deficits, he was the only player on the team who could loosen things up for other players and Pitino didn't use him enough off of the bench. Even if his absolute minutes were more than Stull's, the differentiation wasn't great enough, to the detriment of the team. Jelly could make passes that no one else on the team could.

I think it's too easy to say that Pitino was justified in not trusting Jelly, especially if the option was Stull. Even with all of his mistakes, he contributed much more to the team and he was a good passer, which made him a unique asset.

That’s only half of it. All you talk about is his offense. This isn’t 1970 Iowa HS girls BB. His defense is what kept him off the floor. You have to play on both ends of the floor and he didn’t do that well enough


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[jamiche]

That’s only half of it. All you talk about is his offense. This isn’t 1970 Iowa HS girls BB. His defense is what kept him off the floor. You have to play on both ends of the floor and he didn’t do that well enough


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He wasn't worse than Stull. They were both below average.

Defense is obviously harder to measure. IW had slightly fewer def rebounds/minute and more steals/minute than Stull. In terms of the eye test, Stull was slower.

Neither player looked happy to be out there but Jelly's body language was noticeably worse when he wasn't playing well.

 

[Former Goofer]

I find it fairly hilarious that people here refuse to cheer for and vilify MN kids that choose to go elsewhere and yet wish "Jelly" the best for abandoning this program.

 

[Otis]

I find it fairly hilarious that people here refuse to cheer for and vilify MN kids that choose to go elsewhere and yet wish "Jelly" the best for abandoning this program.

I think people view Jelly as more of an addition by subtraction, considering how much Pitino used him.

 

[cjbfbp]

What is so hard for you to figure out? He didn’t bury him as a personal gripe.

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I could believe this if I hadn't seen the same behavior previously with other players. And "gripe" probably is the wrong word; I think this a deliberate leadership/management technique and I believe that because the behavior has been repeated. I think this choice is misguided and that's probably the primary reason I can't say honestly that I "like" Pitino. But, I don't have to "like" a coach to believe that he has earned the right to retain his position and no one should care whether or not I like him anyway.

 

[jamiche]

I find it fairly hilarious that people here refuse to cheer for and vilify MN kids that choose to go elsewhere and yet wish "Jelly" the best for abandoning this program.

I'm not sure Jelly "abandoned" the program. Pitino opted not to play him.

 

[goldenboy]

Foolishly, I keep returning to this thread, certain that the only worthwhile contributions to it would be news of Isaiah's transfer destination.

 

[Tucker32]

I could believe this if I hadn't seen the same behavior previously with other players. And "gripe" probably is the wrong word; I think this a deliberate leadership/management technique and I believe that because the behavior has been repeated. I think this choice is misguided and that's probably the primary reason I can't say honestly that I "like" Pitino. But, I don't have to "like" a coach to believe that he has earned the right to retain his position and no one should care whether or not I like him anyway.

He does not “bench” guys because he doesn’t like them. He may bench guys because they don’t do what he needs them to do - that’s coaching. A coach is going to play the guys who give him the best chance to win.


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[Gopherfan84]

I could believe this if I hadn't seen the same behavior previously with other players. And "gripe" probably is the wrong word; I think this a deliberate leadership/management technique and I believe that because the behavior has been repeated. I think this choice is misguided and that's probably the primary reason I can't say honestly that I "like" Pitino. But, I don't have to "like" a coach to believe that he has earned the right to retain his position and no one should care whether or not I like him anyway.

What coach in D1 do you believe doesn't have guys that end up in the doghouse? Pitino is one of the nicest I've seen honestly. Not many I can think of that are "nicer" or wouldn't have buried Jelly or whoever else doesn't defend or pouts.

 

[Gopherfan84]

He wasn't worse than Stull. They were both below average.

Defense is obviously harder to measure. IW had slightly fewer def rebounds/minute and more steals/minute than Stull. In terms of the eye test, Stull was slower.

Neither player looked happy to be out there but Jelly's body language was noticeably worse when he wasn't playing well.

Both were below average on the ball. Stull was average on D off the ball. IW was one of the worst I've ever seen play D1 off the ball defensively. The coaches in place have plenty of measurements and rankings for D as they breakdown film.

 

[Former Goofer]

I'm not sure Jelly "abandoned" the program. Pitino opted not to play him.

Maybe Jelly shouldn't have pouted all the time? "Jelly" never did himself any favors whatsoever.

 

[rockford]

Foolishly, I keep returning to this thread, certain that the only worthwhile contributions to it would be news of Isaiah's transfer destination.

Lack of such news speaks for itself, I think.

JTG

 

[cjbfbp]

What coach in D1 do you believe doesn't have guys that end up in the doghouse? Pitino is one of the nicest I've seen honestly. Not many I can think of that are "nicer" or wouldn't have buried Jelly or whoever else doesn't defend or pouts.

I'll repeat the advice of my prior post and ask that you make special note of it this time:


"...no one should care whether or not I like him anyway"

 

[Gopherfan84]

I'll repeat the advice of my prior post and ask that you make special note of it this time:


"...no one should care whether or not I like him anyway"

Appreciate the clarification, although I could care less if you like him or not. I do enjoy good conversation and am curious of fans logic behind their thoughts. Especially if I respect their opinion because they have noticed something I have missed. I do apologize for responding to you on a message board, it was totally out of line on my part.