Jelly Transferring

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GopherJake said:
We recently had a kid attempt to transfer and then return. Any shot of this happening again? JellyFam rejoin the Fam?
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Better him than giving it to a walk-on. We do need a back-up PG if Pitino can move past his issue with him.
 

For reasons not disclosed to the public, Pitino had him on the shortest leash on the team. That was unfortunate because, in spite of his obvious flaws, he had a set of skills that no one else on the team possessed. He was willing and able to pass the ball. He could drive and kick, drive and dish and the ball didn't stay in his hands forever on the perimeter. Pitino never gave him a chance to play through his mistakes. Brock Stull hit two big shots on the road in January against WI, did nothing the rest of the year, and got big minutes off of the bench. Based on what the fans could see, the playing time differential between Brock and Jelly didn't make sense.

Jelly is never going to play in the NBA and will struggle to make money overseas. However, he could have done more here based on his talent. Something was off. Hope he ends up in a decent situation.
 

Jelly! Where are you going to school next year?

Response: Well, you see, I've been keeping my options open and looking for the best fit, for me, and well, you know, the right kind of coach to, umm, play for, and where I can play my style of game...………..
 

jamiche said:
For reasons not disclosed to the public, Pitino had him on the shortest leash on the team. That was unfortunate because, in spite of his obvious flaws, he had a set of skills that no one else on the team possessed. He was willing and able to pass the ball. He could drive and kick, drive and dish and the ball didn't stay in his hands forever on the perimeter. Pitino never gave him a chance to play through his mistakes. Brock Stull hit two big shots on the road in January against WI, did nothing the rest of the year, and got big minutes off of the bench. Based on what the fans could see, the playing time differential between Brock and Jelly didn't make sense.

Jelly is never going to play in the NBA and will struggle to make money overseas. However, he could have done more here based on his talent. Something was off. Hope he ends up in a decent situation.
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Are you open to the possibility that Pitino may have had IW on a short leash for good reason? Doesn't the fact that nobody else seems to be clamoring for his services tell you something?

In the B1G last year, his A/TO was 26/16, hardly stellar (and pretty much the same ratio as his entire freshman season). He was 25-for-61 from the floor (41%). Seven steals in 216 minutes.

I have nothing against the guy. Hope he finds a good fit and finishes well. But my guess is that he's held himself back, rather than suffered under Pitino.

JTG
 

jamiche said:
For reasons not disclosed to the public, Pitino had him on the shortest leash on the team. That was unfortunate because, in spite of his obvious flaws, he had a set of skills that no one else on the team possessed. He was willing and able to pass the ball. He could drive and kick, drive and dish and the ball didn't stay in his hands forever on the perimeter. Pitino never gave him a chance to play through his mistakes. Brock Stull hit two big shots on the road in January against WI, did nothing the rest of the year, and got big minutes off of the bench. Based on what the fans could see, the playing time differential between Brock and Jelly didn't make sense.

Jelly is never going to play in the NBA and will struggle to make money overseas. However, he could have done more here based on his talent. Something was off. Hope he ends up in a decent situation.
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And you could phrase it like, "What did Jelly do or fail to do that caused Pitino to not play him?" We needed a guard in the worse way. Pitino, despite what some want to think, does know basketball and, I'm guessing, wanted to use him. You make it sound like the mystery is mainly on Pitino. I think the mystery is on IW.
 


I highly doubt Pitino or any coach would cut off their nose to spite their face. These guys get paid to win. The opportunity couldn't have been any more open for Jelly after Mason graduated, Carr didn't get his waiver and Geno went elsewhere. We were begging for a PG and Pitino recruited him to be the guy, he just wasn't. Couldn't get out of his own way, we were all rooting for him though.

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Mulligan said:
And you could phrase it like, "What did Jelly do or fail to do that caused Pitino to not play him?" We needed a guard in the worse way. Pitino, despite what some want to think, does know basketball and, I'm guessing, wanted to use him. You make it sound like the mystery is mainly on Pitino. I think the mystery is on IW.
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I think the mystery is on both of them. Brock Stull added nothing. He was the Michael Hurt of the back court. Jelly could at least move the ball and make some passes that nobody else on the team could make. The weaknesses of Jelly's game were obvious. So were his strengths. Given that his strengths were part of what the team lacked and that he was only a sophomore, it seemed strange that he was given less opportunity than anyone on the team to play through his mistakes and bad judgement.

I don't think it was a recruiting failure because I think Jelly is talented enough to contribute decently to a B1G team (10-20 min/game). I do think it was a coaching failure because Pitino couldn't get the best out of him once he got here.
 

jamiche said:
For reasons not disclosed to the public, Pitino had him on the shortest leash on the team. That was unfortunate because, in spite of his obvious flaws, he had a set of skills that no one else on the team possessed. He was willing and able to pass the ball. He could drive and kick, drive and dish and the ball didn't stay in his hands forever on the perimeter. Pitino never gave him a chance to play through his mistakes. Brock Stull hit two big shots on the road in January against WI, did nothing the rest of the year, and got big minutes off of the bench. Based on what the fans could see, the playing time differential between Brock and Jelly didn't make sense.

Jelly is never going to play in the NBA and will struggle to make money overseas. However, he could have done more here based on his talent. Something was off. Hope he ends up in a decent situation.
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Your post makes sense to me. It really did seem that there must have been something “behind the scenes” that drove coach’s decisions regarding IW’s minutes. I trust that coach made the right moves for the team.


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howeda7 said:
Better him than giving it to a walk-on. We do need a back-up PG if Pitino can move past his issue with him.
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He has one in Willis, and if Coffey is back has two.


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jamiche said:
I think the mystery is on both of them. Brock Stull added nothing. He was the Michael Hurt of the back court. Jelly could at least move the ball and make some passes that nobody else on the team could make. The weaknesses of Jelly's game were obvious. So were his strengths. Given that his strengths were part of what the team lacked and that he was only a sophomore, it seemed strange that he was given less opportunity than anyone on the team to play through his mistakes and bad judgement.

I don't think it was a recruiting failure because I think Jelly is talented enough to contribute decently to a B1G team (10-20 min/game). I do think it was a coaching failure because Pitino couldn't get the best out of him once he got here.
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Wow, you have never coached I guess. There are some you can never get anything out of, no matter what you do. The player has to perform, and IW mad some bonehead plays when he would get in the game. Yes,, had his moments, but for the most part just made dumb plays on both ends of the court.


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rockford said:
Big difference between having Coffey as the third point guard, rather than the point guard.

JTG
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But I think that's why you don't do it. Let him focus on playing the 3 without worrying about playing PG 5 minutes/game.
 



howeda7 said:
I'd rather not do that again.
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As a third option, better than almost any other team. Let’s be honest, Pitino has always said he wants multiple people handling the ball so likely not one anyway. Dupree handled ball more than Amir down the stretch of the year.


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howeda7 said:
But I think that's why you don't do it. Let him focus on playing the 3 without worrying about playing PG 5 minutes/game.
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He’s going to do that anyway. I don’t see Pitino taking him off the ball altogether,


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Ozzy&Ray said:
Wow, you have never coached I guess. There are some you can never get anything out of, no matter what you do. The player has to perform, and IW mad some bonehead plays when he would get in the game. Yes,, had his moments, but for the most part just made dumb plays on both ends of the court.


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Hallelujah that you were a coach, I guess.

Every player makes bonehead plays. If a player has upside, I would give him more playing time than the player who does nothing for the team, in spite of that player's bonehead plays. Nobody is claiming Jelly is a great player. However, he had skills and some potential in areas of need. Basically, the options off of the bench were Jelly and Brock Stull. Stull hit two big shots in a road win in early January and not much after that. He got consistent playing time for the rest of the year. Jelly was yo-yo'ed all year. Based on player skills, potential and necessity, I think Pitino made a mistake. That's why my assumption is that something must have been going on between coach and player that was so aggravating that Pitino ignored the good things that Jelly did for the team.
 

jamiche said:
Hallelujah that you were a coach, I guess.

Every player makes bonehead plays. If a player has upside, I would give him more playing time than the player who does nothing for the team, in spite of that player's bonehead plays. Nobody is claiming Jelly is a great player. However, he had skills and some potential in areas of need. Basically, the options off of the bench were Jelly and Brock Stull. Stull hit two big shots in a road win in early January and not much after that. He got consistent playing time for the rest of the year. Jelly was yo-yo'ed all year. Based on player skills, potential and necessity, I think Pitino made a mistake. That's why my assumption is that something must have been going on between coach and player that was so aggravating that Pitino ignored the good things that Jelly did for the team.
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Yep, coach couldn’t count on him to do what he needed him to do.


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Ozzy&Ray said:
Yep, coach couldn’t count on him to do what he needed him to do.


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Pitino knew that you have to eliminate dump mistakes that lose games. You must stop beating yourself first.
 


builtbadgers said:
Pitino knew that you have to eliminate dump mistakes that lose games. You must stop beating yourself first.
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That depends how you define a "mistake." Is the inability to make a play a mistake? Is getting beat a mistake? Is not forcing the defense to guard you a mistake? Is the inability to get to the basket a mistake? Is the inability to put any pressure on the defense a mistake?

Some mistakes are more subtle than other mistakes.
 

So...here's the story.
Coaching staff recruited a ranked kid who has skills and then couldn't find any way to support him in being successful in entering a game. The person who has the power to control the story has made sure it reflects well on him. City ball kids are now much more suspect as they just got issues. The End?
 

jamiche said:
That depends how you define a "mistake." Is the inability to make a play a mistake? Is getting beat a mistake? Is not forcing the defense to guard you a mistake? Is the inability to get to the basket a mistake? Is the inability to put any pressure on the defense a mistake?

Some mistakes are more subtle than other mistakes.
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Some mistakes can be game planned or schemed to hide or account for.
 


jamiche said:
That depends how you define a "mistake." Is the inability to make a play a mistake? Is getting beat a mistake? Is not forcing the defense to guard you a mistake? Is the inability to get to the basket a mistake? Is the inability to put any pressure on the defense a mistake?

Some mistakes are more subtle than other mistakes.
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Not all bench guys can give you something, but they need to not lose something. Still didn’t do much, but he also didn’t turn it over and played better positional defense than Jelly. Jelly took bad shots and was a negative in the d column every time he played. So Stull might have counted as a 0, but Jelly was a negative 8/10 times he played. It’s simple math. Also he was highly recruited in high school and you don’t see many programs going after him hard. He seems like a wonderful kid and I wish him the best, but he just was not a B10 player. Still has a chance, but it’s telling considering he has that skill set, but teams are not clamoring after him.
 

jamiche said:
Hallelujah that you were a coach, I guess.

Every player makes bonehead plays. If a player has upside, I would give him more playing time than the player who does nothing for the team, in spite of that player's bonehead plays. Nobody is claiming Jelly is a great player. However, he had skills and some potential in areas of need. Basically, the options off of the bench were Jelly and Brock Stull. Stull hit two big shots in a road win in early January and not much after that. He got consistent playing time for the rest of the year. Jelly was yo-yo'ed all year. Based on player skills, potential and necessity, I think Pitino made a mistake. That's why my assumption is that something must have been going on between coach and player that was so aggravating that Pitino ignored the good things that Jelly did for the team.
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We all hope IW the best and wish it would have worked out here. I don’t want to get into speculations or start criticizing a former player, but we all know that you earn game time in practices. We will see how much other teams value his skills by who offers him a scholarship. It is really very simple. If he is as good as you suspect, and only held back by Pitino, then it will show up in his play in the next few years.


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jamiche said:
That depends how you define a "mistake." Is the inability to make a play a mistake? Is getting beat a mistake? Is not forcing the defense to guard you a mistake? Is the inability to get to the basket a mistake? Is the inability to put any pressure on the defense a mistake?

Some mistakes are more subtle than other mistakes.
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+1. Providing zero offense and being unable to guard your guy because you're two steps slow might not be a "mistake" but it sure doesn't help win games. You will never convince me that playing Stull over IW to the extent that we did was justified.
 

alchemy2u said:
We all hope IW the best and wish it would have worked out here. I don’t want to get into speculations or start criticizing a former player, but we all know that you earn game time in practices. We will see how much other teams value his skills by who offers him a scholarship. It is really very simple. If he is as good as you suspect, and only held back by Pitino, then it will show up in his play in the next few years.
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Is it really very simple for IW? What exactly do you think these other coaches will base their assessment on? Some of us are less obsessed with the business end of winning and more aware fo the developmental aspects of this level of the program - a university - and concerned about what this says about the ruthlessness of the leadership. After all, Rick Pitino predicted the whole unfolding of this season for IW in October of 2018. So how much room was there for him to prove himself?

Frankly, having been underestimated in the past by a 'superior' in an influential position, I can say that overcoming a negative overlay and excelling at a critical age was no slam dunk. And I wasn't a kid from Harlem with all my dreams on the line.
 

jamiche said:
For reasons not disclosed to the public, Pitino had him on the shortest leash on the team. That was unfortunate because, in spite of his obvious flaws, he had a set of skills that no one else on the team possessed. He was willing and able to pass the ball. He could drive and kick, drive and dish and the ball didn't stay in his hands forever on the perimeter. Pitino never gave him a chance to play through his mistakes. Brock Stull hit two big shots on the road in January against WI, did nothing the rest of the year, and got big minutes off of the bench. Based on what the fans could see, the playing time differential between Brock and Jelly didn't make sense.

Jelly is never going to play in the NBA and will struggle to make money overseas. However, he could have done more here based on his talent. Something was off. Hope he ends up in a decent situation.
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Do you not have BTN?
 

howeda7 said:
But I think that's why you don't do it. Let him focus on playing the 3 without worrying about playing PG 5 minutes/game.
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Huh?

Playing PG hurt Coffey, it didn't hurt the team (considering our other options). IW was brutal.

We are a better team without IW picking up those 5 minutes per game.
 

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