I've Seen Enough

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BballJones said:
Fair. But this is what happens with loses like BC, NE and ILL. It makes this game so much more important and we failed in so many aspects.
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Agreed, those losses are fair to be upset about. Those are ones that cost guys jobs.
 

scools12 said:
Not sure how many times this has to be said but this one game is not what is the breaking point.

There are 6 years on which to judge. Yet we always have one of these it’s only one game posts.


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The thread is titled "I've seen enough" which in my head means this game was the tipping point for some. Many have their minds made up prior to this game and have plenty of data to support their stance. Im just saying I'll wait till the end of the season for judgement and this loss shouldn't be the tipping point.
 

cjbfbp said:
Pitino has contributed to IW's struggles. IW emerged as one of our better players in the latter portion of last season. He deteriorated this year but a number of players have played worse under Pitino over time (e.g., Andre Hollins, Elliot, Morris) and some like Bakery and Hurt never improved much at all. Even McBrayer had only one good year here. This is a lousy player development coach. Only his best players have improved significantly and they would have improved if they had a chimpanzee as a coach.

The team won't be very good next year even if IW stays and plays very well unless the next Bo Ryan or Brad Stevens comes here. Even with that kind coaching talent, this team would be middle of the pack at best.
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We should have built IW up after the strong finish and treated him like the key to the offense as he was. Instead we spent the entire season trying to jam a square peg into a round hole with Coffey.
 


manderson1984 said:
I love how losing to a top 10 team in the country is what is the breaking point... Let the rest play out, I'm slowly but surely ready to move on, but losing to a team as well coached as Michigan isn't a killer for me. Our offense looked bad against a top 10 defense in the country... wierd....Do I think we should be better, yes, do I think Richard is the answer? Moving towards probably not, but I will wait the rest of the season as I wanted to see who Jeter helped our team. Be pissed about Nebraska, Illinois, but Michigan is the best team in the conference.
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Okay, well we have 4 games left in the conference season, so not much season left to play out. At Rutgers, at Northwestern, at Maryland, and home against Purdue. I'm not optimistic about a 9-11 conference record making the tournament. I do not see 3 wins in that stretch, given the recent performances of this team. I would love for them to prove me wrong of course, but I don't see it. We have had so many opportunities for great wins this season that have been blown.

Yes, we lost to a very good team. But it was the quality of the Gophers performance, at home, with a HUGE game on the line, and they showed horrible effort for the first 35 minutes of the game. People have a right to be pretty rankled at this point.
 


manderson1984 said:
The thread is titled "I've seen enough" which in my head means this game was the tipping point for some. Many have their minds made up prior to this game and have plenty of data to support their stance. Im just saying I'll wait till the end of the season for judgement and this loss shouldn't be the tipping point.
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I don't think this was anyone's breaking point. But past losses meant we really needed this one. A well played game, even if we lost, might leave you feeling we can win 3 of the last 4. As it is, I think there is a about a 2% chance we can pull that off.
 

bga1 said:
I don't always love his offense but Michigan doesn't let your offense look good. If you have one good three point shooter and one only- he just is not going to get open looks against Michigan. They mess up what you want to do. From there you have to have players that are able to play through it, make good decisions and make shots. We don't have that. The fact that we found a little passion with five minutes to go ticks me off. Go get better players that can shoot and want to come out fighting from the opening bell. I expected a lot more effort tonight in a game this big, at home with a crowd that wanted to explode.
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The “passion” was simply because we finally hit a few shots. Other than one nice steal, that was really all it was. It’s all about the shooting, and we have a very poor bunch of shooters. WE ONLY LOST BY NINE. We shot 1-10 from three and 9-18 free throws. Only 8 turnovers. We out rebounded them by 45-38. We did NOT play poorly. We SHOT poorly. This happens over and over. Yes, we left too many of their shooters open for threes. That would be my main criticism. But it was really about our TERRIBLE outside shooting and free throws. Again. And again. And again.


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cjbfbp said:
Pitino has contributed to IW's struggles. IW emerged as one of our better players in the latter portion of last season. He deteriorated this year but a number of players have played worse under Pitino over time (e.g., Andre Hollins, Elliot, Morris) and some like Bakery and Hurt never improved much at all. Even McBrayer had only one good year here. This is a lousy player development coach. Only his best players have improved significantly and they would have improved if they had a chimpanzee as a coach.

The team won't be very good next year even if IW stays and plays very well unless the next Bo Ryan or Brad Stevens comes here. Even with that kind coaching talent, this team would be middle of the pack at best.
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All are fair points. I see both sides of the coin here, which is why I don't know if I think he should stay or go. The roster is HIS, and his alone. However, I do think things have happened that were out of his control that had a negative impact on his plans, causing him to reach and hope a bit. Then again, six years....I dunno.
 

cjbfbp said:
Well, good for you and your blessed serenity, but if you think your little lecture influenced anybody, then you're really full of yourself.
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1. I am overly confident, good catch
2. Discussion boards are for friendly banter and stating opinions. If I don't change one persons opinion, I'll be ok (see number 1)
 



GopherVotary said:
Beilein is so good. Must be fun to cheer for a well-coached team.
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The one thing I'll say after watching tonight's game is that his kids bust their ass on defense for him. Just bust their ass consistently without a lot of lapses. That's why they're one of the top scoring defense teams in the country. People don't talk about that enough. Some of it is scheme and fundamentals, but what I saw tonight was effort and intensity. I was impressed. They didn't give the Gophs a chance to get in a groove. Everything was contested.
 

mplarson7 said:
Okay, well we have 4 games left in the conference season, so not much season left to play out. At Rutgers, at Northwestern, at Maryland, and home against Purdue. I'm not optimistic about a 9-11 conference record making the tournament. I do not see 3 wins in that stretch, given the recent performances of this team. I would love for them to prove me wrong of course, but I don't see it. We have had so many opportunities for great wins this season that have been blown.

Yes, we lost to a very good team. But it was the quality of the Gophers performance, at home, with a HUGE game on the line, and they showed horrible effort for the first 35 minutes of the game. People have a right to be pretty rankled at this point.
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I'm not happy with the effort either, but I also give Michigan some credit for making us look terrible too. Again, I'm in leaning in the category of being ready to move on after this season. I do thin 9-11 in conference does get us in this year though. Helps having some other challenging conferences being terrible this year (PAC-12, AAC)
 


Bordergopher said:
The “passion” was simply because we finally hit a few shots. Other than one nice steal, that was really all it was. It’s all about the shooting, and we have a very poor bunch of shooters. WE ONLY LOST BY NINE. We shot 1-10 from three and 9-18 free throws. Only 8 turnovers. We out rebounded them by 45-38. We did NOT play poorly. We SHOT poorly. This happens over and over. Yes, we left too many of their shooters open for threes. That would be my main criticism. But it was really about our TERRIBLE outside shooting and free throws. Again. And again. And again.


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Yessir. As long as it's called basketball and the object is to put the ball in the basket, shooting is going to be fairly important. I love Dupree do death, but you know you're in trouble when your starting shooting guard is objectively only a fair to middling shooter.
 



Bordergopher said:
We had (and regularly get) open threes and miss them. Over and over. Not sure what games you watch.


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Nope. Most teams get way more wide open threes than we do.
 

scools12 said:
The game was not that close.


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No kidding. I hope nobody saw the game. The very best part of the game was that we only lost by 9. We got thrashed and the players didn't show an ounce of care until they put the press on. When the other team makes 13 of 27 threes, that's not exactly a sign that you are making them uncomfortable. They made one really tough corner three, but other than that they were able to just line 'em up and shoot. We were selfish on offense and while not terrible on defense...I just saw no passion to win. Where are the guys diving on the floor on this team for a loose ball? How often do our guys get beat to the long rebounds?
 

scools12 said:
The game was not that close.


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And we had a potential recruit from Hopkins at the game. Excellent recruiting tactic tonight.

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cjbfbp said:
Pitino has contributed to IW's struggles. IW emerged as one of our better players in the latter portion of last season. He deteriorated this year but a number of players have played worse under Pitino over time (e.g., Andre Hollins, Elliot, Morris) and some like Bakery and Hurt never improved much at all. Even McBrayer had only one good year here. This is a lousy player development coach. Only his best players have improved significantly and they would have improved if they had a chimpanzee as a coach.

The team won't be very good next year even if IW stays and plays very well unless the next Bo Ryan or Brad Stevens comes here. Even with that kind coaching talent, this team would be middle of the pack at best.
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All are fair points. I see both sides of the coin here, which is why I don't know if I think he should stay or go. The roster is HIS, and his alone. However, I do think things have happened that were out of his control that had a negative impact on his plans, causing him to reach and hope a bit. Then again, six years....I dunno.
 


Poor effort poor defense poor shooting. The barn used to be a place you just didn’t win. For almost 20 years now it’s been nothing close to that. Home or away good teams stomp us. This Michigan team is good but they aren’t unbeatable.
 

UncleSam'sMisguidedChild said:
I don't really have an opinion on whether Coach Pitino should stay or go, but how different would this team be if Dorsey could have behaved himself and if Jarvis Johnson was healthy enough to play? I'd bet the Gophers would be in a much better position in the standings and in future roster projections. Are those problems Coach Pitino should have been able to foresee?
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All the other teams have issues too. Injuries, suspensions, bad calls, and bad breaks.
 

my 2 cents.
1. nothing changed-- same offense that wasn't working, same defense. no adjustments. our on ball defender gets around the screen late, our big has to help, their big pops out for a 3. It happended to IW once and he never saw the floor again, it happened to Dupree 12 times and it must have been ok. Pre-game Jeter talked about having to change up the defenses- run some full court pressure or a half-court trap. Good thing the NET forced Pitino to want to lose by less than 10 or even the last 3 minutes he wouldn't have gone to any pressure defense.
2. Team chemistry is the hardest thing to coach. You can't force 18-22 year old kids to like each other, especially when they are competing for playing time. IW was subbing in for Coffey in the first half, IW sticks his hand out for a little hand slap on the way past and Coffey ignored it completely. To paraphrase- "Pouting and shooting poorly is no way to go through life, son". The 9 NBA scouts that Amir thought were there to see him, saw him alright. In reality, Jordan Poole and Brazdeikis have a better NBA skill set. If you aren't one of the top 50 NBA players, you had better have a specialty so you can fill a specific role on a specific team.
3. Be careful what you wish for. Wanting to get rid of Pitino may be change just for change's sake. We have lived through his mistakes that young coaches make on recruiting. Namely him thinking he could bring in 4 & 5 star kids and then having to fill a roster with Bakary and Gaston(no offense, nice guys, not gonna win alot of Big Ten games with them playing major roles though) and some questionable character guys. Roster management takes a couple of cycles to figure out-- we have made it to that point, let's let it play out. I am sick of waiting til spring to try add key pieces though. But realistically, overpaying the next up and coming coaching star may get us in the same boat 5 years from now.
 

Minnesconsin fan said:
my 2 cents.
1. nothing changed-- same offense that wasn't working, same defense. no adjustments. our on ball defender gets around the screen late, our big has to help, their big pops out for a 3. It happended to IW once and he never saw the floor again, it happened to Dupree 12 times and it must have been ok. Pre-game Jeter talked about having to change up the defenses- run some full court pressure or a half-court trap. Good thing the NET forced Pitino to want to lose by less than 10 or even the last 3 minutes he wouldn't have gone to any pressure defense.
2. Team chemistry is the hardest thing to coach. You can't force 18-22 year old kids to like each other, especially when they are competing for playing time. IW was subbing in for Coffey in the first half, IW sticks his hand out for a little hand slap on the way past and Coffey ignored it completely. To paraphrase- "Pouting and shooting poorly is no way to go through life, son". The 9 NBA scouts that Amir thought were there to see him, saw him alright. In reality, Jordan Poole and Brazdeikis have a better NBA skill set. If you aren't one of the top 50 NBA players, you had better have a specialty so you can fill a specific role on a specific team.
3. Be careful what you wish for. Wanting to get rid of Pitino may be change just for change's sake. We have lived through his mistakes that young coaches make on recruiting. Namely him thinking he could bring in 4 & 5 star kids and then having to fill a roster with Bakary and Gaston(no offense, nice guys, not gonna win alot of Big Ten games with them playing major roles though) and some questionable character guys. Roster management takes a couple of cycles to figure out-- we have made it to that point, let's let it play out. I am sick of waiting til spring to try add key pieces though. But realistically, overpaying the next up and coming coaching star may get us in the same boat 5 years from now.
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The Gophers put on a clinic of bad body language Thursday. After a while it was all I was noticing from my seat. Compared to Michigan, who were plucky and business-like, the Gophers seemed content to feel sorry for themselves instead of power through. Sometimes I wonder whether our crowd being so whiny about the officiating - even the obvious good calls - feeds into the players' sense of victimization. Our guys seem more focused in road games.
 

Minnesconsin fan said:
3. Be careful what you wish for. Wanting to get rid of Pitino may be change just for change's sake. We have lived through his mistakes that young coaches make on recruiting. Namely him thinking he could bring in 4 & 5 star kids and then having to fill a roster with Bakary and Gaston(no offense, nice guys, not gonna win alot of Big Ten games with them playing major roles though) and some questionable character guys. Roster management takes a couple of cycles to figure out-- we have made it to that point, let's let it play out. I am sick of waiting til spring to try add key pieces though. But realistically, overpaying the next up and coming coaching star may get us in the same boat 5 years from now.
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This paragraph seems to be built around the theme that Pitino had to work through growing pains and he should be much better going forward. That appears to me to be wishful thinking. I don't see evidence that he is improving.

Failure is the best teacher. Because of Pitino's privileges and connections, he has been insulated from failure in his life and spared the need for self-examination and dedicated improvement. He came to this job without significant experience as a coach or even as a player. What he should do is try to get assistant coaching jobs under proven coaches for about five or six years, learn humility, and watch and listen. His buyout should help subsidize the lower compensation. He should keep in perspective that if he is fired here, he already experienced the privilege of earning well above what he was worth for six years.

I would much rather take a chance on a new coach who "may" fail than continue with one who "is" a failed experiment. I follow Mae West's philosophy: "When given a choice between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before."
 

cjbfbp said:
This paragraph seems to be built around the theme that Pitino had to work through growing pains and he should be much better going forward. That appears to me to be wishful thinking. I don't see evidence that he is improving.

Failure is the best teacher. Because of Pitino's privileges and connections, he has been insulated from failure in his life and spared the need for self-examination and dedicated improvement. He came to this job without significant experience as a coach or even as a player. What he should do is try to get assistant coaching jobs under proven coaches for about five or six years, learn humility, and watch and listen. His buyout should help subsidize the lower compensation. He should keep in perspective that if he is fired here, he already experienced the privilege of earning well above what he was worth for six years.

I would much rather take a chance on a new coach who "may" fail than continue with one who "is" a failed experiment. I follow Mae West's philosophy: "When given a choice between two evils, I always pick the one I haven't tried before."
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I don't think we have any way to know that he has been insulated from self examination or any of the above. After the year where we had the sex scandal, he took a lot of abuse and he answered the bell quite well with an NCAA team the next year.

He came up under his dad and Billy Donovan- two great coaches but even more so- two great recruiters. Those guys played up tempo systems with great athletes and shooters. That's what Richard brought here. So he wanted his team identity to be athletic, up tempo, offensive freedom and lots of deflections and steals. He was able to do that at FIU and in his first year at Minnesota - we had a team that got a lot of steals and break aways. Now he is not getting that anymore. We are near the bottom on steals in the Big Ten. The big problem he has, in my view, is that his guards don't fit with the system. Coffey would fit great with his system as a small forward. Dorsey would have been great in the system. So would Jarvis Johnson. Lil Dre was terrific his first year. Mason was a great player but without that top end quickness but overall he fit the system and would have been amazing alongside Dorsey or Johnson. I thought McBrayer would be good, but his streaks of bad shooting just kills him. Both Springs and Smith from earlier teams had their flaws, but boy, could this team ever use either one of them now!

We just have a really weak group of guards. Gabe is going to be really good but he has to be accompanied by a point guard who can get him shots and that certainly isn't Coffey. I think that Pitino has chosen a system, stuck with it and has tried to recruit to it, but has not gotten the players he needed especially at the guard position. Both his dad and Donovan had shooters that also had speed. Richard doesn't have those guys and it shows. Maybe he should have given up on that system. Whatever he has done, it isn't good enough.
 

manderson1984 said:
I love how losing to a top 10 team in the country is what is the breaking point... Let the rest play out, I'm slowly but surely ready to move on, but losing to a team as well coached as Michigan isn't a killer for me. Our offense looked bad against a top 10 defense in the country... wierd....Do I think we should be better, yes, do I think Richard is the answer? Moving towards probably not, but I will wait the rest of the season as I wanted to see who Jeter helped our team. Be pissed about Nebraska, Illinois, but Michigan is the best team in the conference.
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Right on many levels.

Michigan wasn’t do or die for me. I honestly think they are final 4 good. Have all year.

I wonder how all these conversations would be going had we beat Nebraska and not lost at the buzzer to Michigan the first time?

We beat Rutgers and NW...win one in the conference tourney we’re probably in.

The guard play will dictate this.


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StCroix said:
Right on many levels.

Michigan wasn’t do or die for me. I honestly think they are final 4 good. Have all year.

I wonder how all these conversations would be going had we beat Nebraska and not lost at the buzzer to Michigan the first time?

We beat Rutgers and NW...win one in the conference tourney we’re probably in.

The guard play will dictate this.


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I like the optimism! However, shooting poorly has become our norm. Let's win out!!
 

StCroix said:
Right on many levels.

Michigan wasn’t do or die for me. I honestly think they are final 4 good. Have all year.

I wonder how all these conversations would be going had we beat Nebraska and not lost at the buzzer to Michigan the first time?

We beat Rutgers and NW...win one in the conference tourney we’re probably in.

The guard play will dictate this.


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How about if Gabe got called for his travels on the game winner against Washington and if Penn St had made their buzzer beater against us? It cuts both ways.
 

Whatever approach is being used with IW, it isn't working. Not sure if Pitino is using some kind of horse-breaking technique (is he holding out for some magical aha moment he is seeking?), but what ever has occurred so far has yielded the opposite affect.

To be fair, it is hard to know without knowing what is happening behind the scenes.

However, what I see is that IW's skills are needed to make this year's team work. He can actually break-down a defense. I almost feel like Pitino is trying to make him something he isn't rather than sharpening what he is as a player. Sometimes you need to take a little of the good with the bad. Not sure if Pitino is doing this, but you cannot treat every player the same. Everyone needs something different. I see IW as a player who needs a little more forgiveness in his style of play (ie celebrate what he is, just sharpen it a bit). If you don't accept some of his mistakes, I feel there is no point in rostering a player like him. Like I said, not sure what is going on in the locker room, but on the court it seems like IW is very confused with who he is supposed to be when he plays.
 

IW should be the PG...PERIOD. By no stretch is Coffey an EFFECTIVE PG. In fact, in many situations he kills the offense.

At this point, I don’t know what it would hurt to cut IW loose with the offense.

Amongst everything we can bitch about Pitino, this is my biggest problem with him.


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Pitino IW very simple wish list:

1 Play with some mental freedom. It's okay to make mistakes trying to do the right thing.
2 Use the dribble to get your teammates open looks
3 Get yourself some *open* looks
4 Know how to make 2 & 3 harmonious. Feel your team. Feel the game. Sometimes your team needs you to make something happen, but most of the time you need to makes something happen for your teammates (you always have 4 of them on the floor and there is 1 of you.)
 

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