I've Seen Enough

[Go Gophs]

Why do some people think Saunders is the answer?

I don't get this either. He sucks. If you are bringing someone in here, get an up and comer with that passion for recruiting and hard working likeable guy that will bring energy. Basically, clone PJ Fleck and put a basketball in his hand.

 

[Ope3]

The glass is always half empty with you. Be a little positive. They made a nice run to get it in. That's a fact.

Overall I enjoyed how Gophers entire body of work played out, beating Purdue twice, Big 10 semis and getting an NCAA victory but it doesn't change the fact they finished 3-7 in the Big 10 Regular season. Glass half empty or not, that's also just a fact.

In 2019 they had road opportunities down the stretch and could not get it done (especially at Nebraska and Rutgers) which required the heroics vs Purdue and in Chicago.

They still have a chance to do something similar this year. Play like they did against Iowa for the middle 30 minutes it could happen. If they do not bring it, they could also lose at Northwestern.

 

[Go Gophs]

Exactly, we do not get players like top 10 programs so we have to go about it a different way. We have actually out recruited UVA several times since 2012 but they found and developed players to play as a team. Before people freak out about their highly ranked 2016 class that ranking occurred way after they were offered and committed so the internet scouts could look good. When offerred , Jerome was 252, Hunter 100 and Guy 50. It does not have to be slow. Their pace of play on offense was near the slowest but within the numbers, just two less dribbles per possession moves them up 35 spots, taking 2 poor shots in the shot clock moves them up 40 more. Committing twice as many turnovers galfway into a possession moves them up 75 more and finally , if they Would just give up easy baskets in transition they would move up 50 more. They could play fast and get destroyed. You can can slow down a high end talented team but it is very difficult to speed up any team. Limiting possessions with high efficiency is a great way to compete. It takes enormous discipline, mental toughness and super high level skills. Sure, that class won a national title but they won a bunch of ACC titles, 30 win seasons with other classes. UW did the same thing minus the national title. If you prefer the game up and down, the Big 10 Is not the way. AAU has tons of careless basketball with no defense. If the object is to put the ball in the basket then it is a given that it would require you to invest at least as much time to stopping people from putting it in the basket. It takes tremendous skill and effort, communication and positioning to play great defense and you can control that easier than making shots. Plus you frustrate and wear out the other team. They are great models to follow. Tons of successful teams are now playing packline, tons are running sides offense. Show me another way that a consistent conference champion has been built at a not already elite program in a power 6 conference. Please show me, because in my world it is about joining the ranks of the elite without cheating ! It can be done here. It will take a once in a lifetime coach.

Yes.

I find it astonishing that people think we can win here without playing this style of basketball. Great defense, great rebounding, efficient offense, take care of the basketball, good shooting helps too.

That is the only way to get it done here until you are able to start getting better recruits to sign the dotted line.

To me, this starts with recruiting basketball players instead of project athletes. A roster with 7-8 real basketball players and then you can fill the rest in with athletes. Those 7-8 might not be able to run with the big boys, but they will play solid, smart, tough ball that competes and fits in nicely when in fact you do hit on a few of these high end athletes or "gas" athletes that can play the game(guys like Carr, Oturo) that can actually take you to the next level.

 

[tikited]

I don't get this either. He sucks. If you are bringing someone in here, get an up and comer with that passion for recruiting and hard working likeable guy that will bring energy. Basically, clone PJ Fleck and put a basketball in his hand.

Come again?

 

[Go Gophs]

Saunders. What has he done? Be Flip's son? Nice job being born.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Michigan state is the only one that has out performed uw IN THE LAST 15 YEARS. Check out the pace of others. who has won the conference and been to a final 4 that built themselves up from mediocre to knock off those at the top. If Iowa is the other end of the spectrum they have been mediocre compared to UW. No conference title, no final 4, no national title, pretty ho hum record.

Iowa is on the other end of the spectrum as in fast pace of play, high scoring, little defense, and that's their identity. I wasn't necessarily relating it to success. My whole argument is that most teams don't have this easily definable 'identity' that translates to success.

If you want to look strictly at B1G regular season titles over the last 15 years, either outright or a share, it breaks down as follows:

Michigan St: 5
Ohio St: 5
Purdue: 3
Indiana: 2
Michigan: 2
Wisconsin: 2
Illinois: 1

So yeah, Wisconsin is consistently in the top 4 of the conference, but they're not consistently winning B1G championships either. They will have won 1 over the last 12 seasons after this season is complete.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Iowa is on the other end of the spectrum as in fast pace of play, high scoring, little defense, and that's their identity. I wasn't necessarily relating it to success. My whole argument is that most teams don't have this easily definable 'identity' that translates to success.

If you want to look strictly at B1G regular season titles over the last 15 years, either outright or a share, it breaks down as follows:

Michigan St: 5
Ohio St: 5
Purdue: 3
Indiana: 2
Michigan: 2
Wisconsin: 2
Illinois: 1

So yeah, Wisconsin is consistently in the top 4 of the conference, but they're not consistently winning B1G championships either. They will have won 1 over the last 12 seasons after this season is complete.

I agree: there's more than one way to skin a cat. Dr. Davis played full-court defense his entire tenure there and won doing it, so anyone who says that's impossible is neglecting empirical evidence. The key is being good at what you do and executing. Care and craftsmanship will make you successful in any walk of life.

Michigan State has the reputation of being deliberate in pace of play, but they get out and run the court for easy baskets when there's an opportunity. It's common sense: strike fast if you can, but if you can't, be deliberate and precise.

 

[bga1]

I don't get this either. He sucks. If you are bringing someone in here, get an up and comer with that passion for recruiting and hard working likeable guy that will bring energy. Basically, clone PJ Fleck and put a basketball in his hand.

Is Tim Brewster a basketball guy?

 

[tikited]

Saunders. What has he done? Be Flip's son? Nice job being born.

Oh the irony. Just in case you feel Pitino should stay.

Because you clearly have no idea... Saunders got the job because of his dad, that is true. He is very respected in the league as a basketball guy though and will have no problem finding work after the Wolves move on from him. He will be working in the world of basketball for many, many years from now because he will deserve it (just might not be as a head coach).

 

[Go Gophs]

Oh the irony. Just in case you feel Pitino should stay.

Because you clearly have no idea... Saunders got the job because of his dad, that is true. He is very respected in the league as a basketball guy though and will have no problem finding work after the Wolves move on from him. He will be working in the world of basketball for many, many years from now because he will deserve it (just might not be as a head coach).

OK, he's doing a great job so far. A couple terrible seasons with half or more of his players quitting on him. Defense which is basically effort has been the worst in the league and possibly the history of the game.

I'm not saying don't can Pitino. He hasn't gotten it done either.

 

[builtbadgers]

Iowa is on the other end of the spectrum as in fast pace of play, high scoring, little defense, and that's their identity. I wasn't necessarily relating it to success. My whole argument is that most teams don't have this easily definable 'identity' that translates to success.

If you want to look strictly at B1G regular season titles over the last 15 years, either outright or a share, it breaks down as follows:

Michigan St: 5
Ohio St: 5
Purdue: 3
Indiana: 2
Michigan: 2
Wisconsin: 2
Illinois: 1

So yeah, Wisconsin is consistently in the top 4 of the conference, but they're not consistently winning B1G championships either. They will have won 1 over the last 12 seasons after this season is complete.

Two Final 4's, 4 30 win seasons. Check out how Purdue has paced.Check out Michigan, Check out OSU.

 

[builtbadgers]

I agree: there's more than one way to skin a cat. Dr. Davis played full-court defense his entire tenure there and won doing it, so anyone who says that's impossible is neglecting empirical evidence. The key is being good at what you do and executing. Care and craftsmanship will make you successful in any walk of life.

Michigan State has the reputation of being deliberate in pace of play, but they get out and run the court for easy baskets when there's an opportunity. It's common sense: strike fast if you can, but if you can't, be deliberate and precise.

MSU is elite, secondary break athletes, rebounders that can outlet, specific skill. Tom Davis never got Iowa elite, no conference title, won 126 lost 104. Bo ryan feasted on teams that played fast.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

On skor north today doogie said the buyout becomes 2 million in April so let’s see what happens. The 2020 instate recruiting losses are bad optics after 7 yrs.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

Two Final 4's, 4 30 win seasons. Check out how Purdue has paced.Check out Michigan, Check out OSU.

And none of those occurred under Gard. Michigan under Beilein was not far off of Wisconsin's pace, so I'll give you that. Purdue and OSU are typically much more up tempo in their good years according to KenPom.

The funny thing is this year's team has been Pitino's slowest tempo and one of the better defensive teams since he's been here. Maybe that's why you still like them? Yet they are still .500.

 

[builtbadgers]

And none of those occurred under Gard. Michigan under Beilein was not far off of Wisconsin's pace, so I'll give you that. Purdue and OSU are typically much more up tempo in their good years according to KenPom.

The funny thing is this year's team has been Pitino's slowest tempo and one of the better defensive teams since he's been here. Maybe that's why you still like them? Yet they are still .500.

48 th in defense is not very good, what is that 11th in the conference. If we had a top 20 defense we would be a top 20 team.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

48 th in defense is not very good, what is that 11th in the conference. If we had a top 20 defense we would be a top 20 team.

That's highly unlikely. There are a number of B1G teams ahead of us in both offense and defense that are not top 20 teams.

Pitino's best team was in 2017. It was his best defensive team, but it was also one of his fastest tempo teams. It was also the team with the best players. Players he was able to recruit without this so called 'identity'.

 

[builtbadgers]

That's highly unlikely. There are a number of B1G teams ahead of us in both offense and defense that are not top 20 teams.

Pitino's best team was in 2017. It was his best defensive team, but it was also one of his fastest tempo teams. It was also the team with the best players. Players he was able to recruit without this so called 'identity'.

They were not a very fast team, two less dribbles, two fewer turnovers and they end at 275. Plus, what is that overall record again, and the one when we give up more than 75 on nights shots do not fall. Still waiting for the mediocre program that got built in a power conference and moved amongst the elite in a sustainable way.

 

[GopherWeatherGuy]

They were not a very fast team, two less dribbles, two fewer turnovers and they end at 275. Plus, what is that overall record again, and the one when we give up more than 75 on nights shots do not fall. Still waiting for the mediocre program that got built in a power conference and moved amongst the elite in a sustainable way.

The Gophers were 98th in the country and 3rd in the B1G in adjusted tempo in 16-17, with a 22nd ranked defense.

So are you saying Wisconsin moved among the elite in a sustainable way? Maybe that was the case under Ryan, but they are trending downward under Gard, with the same style of play.

 

[Bad Gopher]

MSU is elite, secondary break athletes, rebounders that can outlet, specific skill. Tom Davis never got Iowa elite, no conference title, won 126 lost 104. Bo ryan feasted on teams that played fast.

The Gophers under Haskins ran, too, on an opportunity basis. They scouted the opponent, and if they were slow or lazy to get back, we made them pay. The 1997 team embarrassed opponents doing this.

Your point seems to be that the only way you can win in the Big Ten is EXACTLY like Bo Ryan did. I think as highly of him as anyone, but that's simply bull. There are a lot of ways to play the game.

 

[Ewert86PC]

On skor north today doogie said the buyout becomes 2 million in April so let’s see what happens. The 2020 instate recruiting losses are bad optics after 7 yrs.

Where are the BB alums and M men? They could raise $2 million easily.

 

[Ewert86PC]

Pitino has a young team and a shallow bench, and yes, I know that is partly his fault, but my question is, what will the team look like in 2 years if Pitino remains the coach? I know Oturu won't be here in 2 years, but most of the rest of the team will be, right?

You answered your own question. In two years, we will have a young team and a shallow bench.

 

[leib0039]

Another guy I would have interest in is Wes Miller from UNCG. Four straight huge seasons there. Not a lot of tourney success but its UNCG, not like they have a long history. Young guy who took a crap team and built them up.

 

[builtbadgers]

The Gophers under Haskins ran, too, on an opportunity basis. They scouted the opponent, and if they were slow or lazy to get back, we made them pay. The 1997 team embarrassed opponents doing this.

Your point seems to be that the only way you can win in the Big Ten is EXACTLY like Bo Ryan did. I think as highly of him as anyone, but that's simply bull. There are a lot of ways to play the game.

Never said exactly like Bo Ryan did but people should understand exactly what is happening when they see pace of play stats. What i asked for was a example where a previous mediocre program from a power conference was built into a sustainable elite that was fast and soft on defense. Very few programs that were mediocre like our have been transformed into nationally elite programs period. That makes studying them easy because there are so few.

 

[BarnBurner]

"Never said".

Badger has uttered those two words more than 40-70.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Never said exactly like Bo Ryan did but people should understand exactly what is happening when they see pace of play stats. What i asked for was a example where a previous mediocre program from a power conference was built into a sustainable elite that was fast and soft on defense. Very few programs that were mediocre like our have been transformed into nationally elite programs period. That makes studying them easy because there are so few.

Point taken. That was the book on Pitino when they hired him, although based on only one season at FIU: they scored well, but they also gave up a lot of points. Small sample size, though, and I can't say what their defensive efficiency was.

That said, nobody intentionally builds a team to be soft on defense. It comes down to methods, teaching and execution, as it is with any craft.

 

[Bordergopher]

I think you can look at this two ways. You’re looking at it like if Gabe were shooting better, this team would be better (which is obviously true). However, I would argue the other way to look at this is that Pitino himself has said that the philosophy this year was to be more perimeter oriented, which requires shooters. From what I’ve seen of Willis, Demir, Williams, etc. is that they are not “pure shooters” like Gabe. Pitino doesn’t have enough shooting talent to be perimeter oriented, and when your one pure shooter is in a season long slump, that has large implications. I would say this is indicative of his entire tenure- lack of depth and identity. Williams and Ihnen are long and could be competent slashers. But we haven’t seen enough of that. Williams isn’t a great 3 shooter. At least Ihnen’s stroke looks good. But pinning everything on the shooting abilities of Gabe just creates an unsustainable house of cards.

This x100. I have been frustrated for so long here with our lack of focus on shooting in our recruitment. I would sacrifice athletic ability for shooting ability with more of our recruits (Obviously not all of them), but that has been the opposite with Pitino.

Our typical recruit has a recruiting profile something like this: “He has good length and ability to get to the rack and score in transition. With his athletic ability he projects as a good defensive player given time to fill out his skinny frame and also to learn defense. If he can develop an outside shot, he will have all the tools to start on a Big 10 team.”

How about this profile instead for 1-2 recruits each cycle: “An excellent outside shooter who will make you pay dearly if left open beyond the arc. He can also create his open shot with good ball fakes, footwork and ball-handling. Not the most athletic guy on the floor, but he makes up for that with smart play and hard work.”.

The blue-bloods get guys with all the tools. We have to choose what to sacrifice. It’s not all about jumping out of the gym. From what I read, Mashburn is a step in the right direction. I hope it’s not too late.

 

[Gopherfan84]

This x100. I have been frustrated for so long here with our lack of focus on shooting in our recruitment. I would sacrifice athletic ability for shooting ability with more of our recruits (Obviously not all of them), but that has been the opposite with Pitino.

Our typical recruit has a recruiting profile something like this: “He has good length and ability to get to the rack and score in transition. With his athletic ability he projects as a good defensive player given time to fill out his skinny frame and also to learn defense. If he can develop an outside shot, he will have all the tools to start on a Big 10 team.”

How about this profile instead for 1-2 recruits each cycle: “An excellent outside shooter who will make you pay dearly if left open beyond the arc. He can also create his open shot with good ball fakes, footwork and ball-handling. Not the most athletic guy on the floor, but he makes up for that with smart play and hard work.”.

The blue-bloods get guys with all the tools. We have to choose what to sacrifice. It’s not all about jumping out of the gym. From what I read, Mashburn is a step in the right direction. I hope it’s not too late.

What are you talking about about?

Last couple classes:
2019: Ihnen and Willis (Transfer eligible this year, put him in any class you want)
2018: Gabe
2017: Jamir Harris
2016: Michael Hurt's profile listed him as a good shooter
2015: Amad Gilbert and Jarvis Johnson was a more than capable 3 pt shooter

 

[builtbadgers]

Point taken. That was the book on Pitino when they hired him, although based on only one season at FIU: they scored well, but they also gave up a lot of points. Small sample size, though, and I can't say what their defensive efficiency was.

That said, nobody intentionally builds a team to be soft on defense. It comes down to methods, teaching and execution, as it is with any craft.

Exactly, what you stress gives you the best chance to be great at it. With practice hour limits staffs have to prioritize and the best ones are very efficient and on point as teachers, a gift. Shooting is one aspect players must get up a ton of on their own. Finer points in a team setting, picks,screens,help, position, inbounds defending in bounds, technique,boxing out game prep etc.. all that eats a ton of time. Great coaches are a rare breed. They have a uncommon gift to teach, to connect, to lead. Super hard to find them. A program is fortunate to find one in the programs history.

 

[builtbadgers]

What are you talking about about?

Last couple classes:
2019: Ihnen and Willis (Transfer eligible this year, put him in any class you want)
2018: Gabe
2017: Jamir Harris
2016: Michael Hurt's profile listed him as a good shooter
2015: Amad Gilbert and Jarvis Johnson was a more than capable 3 pt shooter

Interesting, I did not have Jarvis graded as a plus distance shooter.

 

[Gopherfan84]

Interesting, I did not have Jarvis graded as a plus distance shooter.

He's a stretch. That's fair, I put him as capable for that reason.