It is Time for an honest evaluation of the Gopher Athletic Program.

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MRJ said:
Actually, your the one who is overlooking things. Your sticking with your "well, they've won this many titles and you've won this many, therefore they must be better" despite the head-to-head dominance Minnesota has had over Wisconsin over the years. Only since Alvarez came on board have they even started closing the gap in head-to-head matchups.

You can cling to those "they have more titles than you" theory if you like. All and all, it sounds like the Bucky fans who claim superiority in hockey because of having one more national title despite the decades-long butt-kickings the Gophers have delivered to them.
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Please list the Gopher tradition or link it or whatever.

My view is that there is little or no basketball tradition and not much more in football.
 

MRJ said:
Actually, your the one who is overlooking things. Your sticking with your "well, they've won this many titles and you've won this many, therefore they must be better" despite the head-to-head dominance Minnesota has had over Wisconsin over the years. Only since Alvarez came on board have they even started closing the gap in head-to-head matchups.

You can cling to those "they have more titles than you" theory if you like. All and all, it sounds like the Bucky fans who claim superiority in hockey because of having one more national title despite the decades-long butt-kickings the Gophers have delivered to them.
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I agree MN has more LONG-TERM tradition than Wisconsin does. 6 National football titles, head to head etc.

BUT ... to recruits TODAY, they don't look at tradition MN used to have. They care about the last 10, or maybe even 5 years. Better recruits often means better results. Also, when recruits want to play somewhere. Would they not go somewhere because they always lose to one team, always, but still win the nat'l title every year? If I am that one team that always wins head-to-head, but never anything more. I am frustrated (as many are right now)
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Please list the Gopher tradition or link it or whatever.

My view is that there is little or no basketball tradition and not much more in football.
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6 National championships in football, although long ago and holds little relevance with recruits, media, etc. today.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Again the Gophers have 4 B10 basketball titles since The Barn opened in 1920's and 2 B10 football titles since WW2.

Wisconsin > Gophers.
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At least you didn't bring up Kentucky's record under Tubby with this thread like just about every other...so that's a plus.

Regarding your statement on tradition...spinning history is too easy to make statements of fact...even though you seem to restate your position as fact and ignore many other statements of fact that contradict yours.

That said, I am sure that Boise St and TCU in football and BYU and SDSU in BB are totally winning because of their long standing tradition of winning in those sports...oh wait...not so fast...they are winning because they have superior coaches and talented players...and that is why in the last 20 years in football and the last 12 years in BB the badgers have been beating us...they had better coaches and players...really had nothing to do with tradition...the one you made up in your head or the actual tradition the is represented by scores and winning percentages.

We have better coaches now and we will have better players and we shall see how we compete over the next 5 years with the badgers...and the 5 after that...and so on.

So, while I love your observations from the peanut gallery...keep your facts about our traditions to your self and stick to things you know about...like the taste of tubby's butt cheek and Purdue.
 

GopherinPhilly said:
At least you didn't bring up Kentucky's record under Tubby with this thread like just about every other...so that's a plus.

Regarding your statement on tradition...spinning history is too easy to make statements of fact...even though you seem to restate your position as fact and ignore many other statements of fact that contradict yours.

That said, I am sure that Boise St and TCU in football and BYU and SDSU in BB are totally winning because of their long standing tradition of winning in those sports...oh wait...not so fast...they are winning because they have superior coaches and talented players...and that is why in the last 20 years in football and the last 12 years in BB the badgers have been beating us...they had better coaches and players...really had nothing to do with tradition...the one you made up in your head or the actual tradition the is represented by scores and winning percentages.

We have better coaches now and we will have better players and we shall see how we compete over the next 5 years with the badgers...and the 5 after that...and so on.

So, while I love your observations from the peanut gallery...keep your facts about our traditions to your self and stick to things you know about...like the taste of tubby's butt cheek and Purdue.
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Again (instead of telling me why every other team stinks) tell me why the Gophers don't.

The Gopher basketball tradition is stronger than Penn St or Northwestern but no one else in B10.

http://www.gophersports.com/ViewArt...=3302&DB_LANG=C&DB_OEM_ID=8400&ATCLID=1432293

Gopher football tradition is 50 years ago.
 


Friend Of Tubby said:
Again (instead of telling me why every other team stinks) tell me why the Gophers don't.

The Gopher basketball tradition is stronger than Penn St or Northwestern but no one else in B10.

Gopher football tradition is 50 years ago.
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I didn't say any other team stinks...I simply stated your premise that tradition is what is holding the Gophers back is idiotic. You making such a foolish statement then trying to validate it with untrue or misleading statements is foolish.

Tradition isn't getting Texas and Kansas to the top of the polls this year...its their players and coaches...otherwise, Kentucky and Indiana would be top 5 too...but they don't have the coaches and players that Texas and Kansas have....and if tradition were required to be successful, BYU and SDSU wouldn't be top 12 teams this year in BB...but they are, and TCU and Boise St. wouldn't be top FB teams the last 5 years...but they are. Your premise regarding our struggles is false...and therefor your evidence proving your premise is worthless. That is my point.

Wisconsin has been better than us for the last 20 years or so because they had better coaches and players...before that...they didn't...
 

GopherinPhilly said:
I didn't say any other team stinks...I simply stated your premise that tradition is what is holding the Gophers back is idiotic. You making such a foolish statement then trying to validate it with untrue or misleading statements is foolish.

Tradition isn't getting Texas and Kansas to the top of the polls this year...its their players and coaches...otherwise, Kentucky and Indiana would be top 5 too...but they don't have the coaches and players that Texas and Kansas have....and if tradition were required to be successful, BYU and SDSU wouldn't be top 12 teams this year in BB...but they are, and TCU and Boise St. wouldn't be top FB teams the last 5 years...but they are. Your premise regarding our struggles is false...and therefor your evidence proving your premise is worthless. That is my point.

Wisconsin has been better than us for the last 20 years or so because they had better coaches and players...before that...they didn't...
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Again tell me (please) why the Gophers have even a DECENT football or basketball tradition.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Again the Gophers have 4 B10 basketball titles since The Barn opened in 1920's and 2 B10 football titles since WW2.

Wisconsin > Gophers.
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And how does that make you right about Wisc. being good since the 60's, like you wrote? Oh, wait, it doesn't.
 

tikited said:
And how does that make you right about Wisc. being good since the 60's, like you wrote? Oh, wait, it doesn't.
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Dodging and ducking. List the many (or ANY) positives about Gopher traditions in football or basketball.
 



Friend Of Tubby said:
Dodging and ducking. List the many (or ANY) positives about Gopher traditions in football or basketball.
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Not one poster is saying you are wrong about the Gophers. What everyone is saying is that you are wrong about Wisc. being so good over the last 40 or so years. You are wrong. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

The Goph's haven't been good in football for a long time-duh! The Goph's haven't been great in basketball, but have been good-duh! Everyone knows this. Wisc. sucked in football and basketball for many, many years before Barry came around-everyone knows this except you and the Badger fans of today.
 

tikited said:
Not one poster is saying you are wrong about the Gophers. What everyone is saying is that you are wrong about Wisc. being so good over the last 40 or so years. You are wrong. Why is that so hard for you to understand?

The Goph's haven't been good in football for a long time-duh! The Goph's haven't been great in basketball, but have been good-duh! Everyone knows this. Wisc. sucked in football and basketball for many, many years before Barry came around-everyone knows this except you and the Badger fans of today.
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I said Wisconsin > Minnesota in terms of football and basketball tradition. I believe that's correct.

I never said either is great. Gophers had some success under Haskins in 1990's.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
I said Wisconsin > Minnesota in terms of football and basketball tradition. I believe that's correct.

I never said either is great. Gophers had some success under Haskins in 1990's.
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Sure, whatever you say.
 

We do so much whining about Becky all the time here. BETTER DEAD THAN RED!
 




tikited said:
Sure, whatever you say.
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Wisky is 625-467-56 all-time in football. 22 bowl appearances. 7 B10 titles, 7 Rose Bowls. (post WW2)

Minny is 643-472-44 all-time in football. 14 bowl appearances. 2 B10 titles, 2 Rose Bowls. (post WW2)

Those numbers tell me Wisky > Minny in football.
 

FOT - A Question

You keep saying that Minnesota doesn't have a 'tradition of winning' in football or basketball and list your statistics. My question is, over the same timeframe, what is the Badgers 'tradition'?

I really don't think that 'tradition' is the word you want to use. Almost everyone agrees that over the past several decades Gopher football has not been good, but that doesn't say that we don't (and seemingly by your statement, never) have such a tradition long-term - which is really what tradition means.
 


NorthernVaGopher said:
You keep saying that Minnesota doesn't have a 'tradition of winning' in football or basketball and list your statistics. My question is, over the same timeframe, what is the Badgers 'tradition'?

I really don't think that 'tradition' is the word you want to use. Almost everyone agrees that over the past several decades Gopher football has not been good, but that doesn't say that we don't (and seemingly by your statement, never) have such a tradition long-term - which is really what tradition means.
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See above. Numbers are pretty clear to me.
 

NorthernVaGopher said:
You keep saying that Minnesota doesn't have a 'tradition of winning' in football or basketball and list your statistics. My question is, over the same timeframe, what is the Badgers 'tradition'?

I really don't think that 'tradition' is the word you want to use. Almost everyone agrees that over the past several decades Gopher football has not been good, but that doesn't say that we don't (and seemingly by your statement, never) have such a tradition long-term - which is really what tradition means.
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Basketball (titles and NCAA since The Barn opened) in 1920's:

Wisky = 1389-1117 all-time. 7 B10 titles, 16 NCAA appearances - 1 NC title, 2 FF.

Minny = 1303-986 all-time. 4 B10 titles, 10 NCAA appearances - 0 NC, 1 FF.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Wisky is 625-467-56 all-time in football. 22 bowl appearances. 7 B10 titles, 7 Rose Bowls. (post WW2)

Minny is 643-472-44 all-time in football. 14 bowl appearances. 2 B10 titles, 2 Rose Bowls. (post WW2)

Those numbers tell me Wisky > Minny in football.
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Again, who said you were wrong? No one. Again, you were wrong about Wisc. and the winning history you seem to believe they have had before Barry. I'm starting to think you have a reading disability.

So...again, whatever you say.
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Wisky is 625-467-56 all-time in football. 22 bowl appearances. 7 B10 titles, 7 Rose Bowls. (post WW2)

Minny is 643-472-44 all-time in football. 14 bowl appearances. 2 B10 titles, 2 Rose Bowls. (post WW2)

Those numbers tell me Wisky > Minny in football.
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Your choice of WW2 as a magical cutoff date is arbitrary, especially since you started your basketball comparisons in the 1920's. Please be consistent.
 

Hey there friend of tubby, here is the deal...

In the history of the football series with the stinking badgers, the numbers read like this:

Minnesota 59 wins

wisky 53 wins

there have been 8 ties.

NOW comes the BIGGIE friend of tubby:

In Basketball, Minnesota has 92 wins vs. wisky and 87 losses. Once again, Minnesota holds the head to head competition edge over the stinking wisky badgers.

That, of course is NOT to brag about how the Gophers have done. No, not at all friend of tubby. That is ONLY to let you know that you are making a BAD argument...a flawed argument...a failed argument. During that period of time, there were times when the Gophers had long runs of success against the stinking badgers and there have also been times when the stinking badgers have had long runs of success against the Gophers. But, in the end, the Gophers have beaten the stinking badgers MORE than the stinking badgers have beaten the Gophers.




Now, on to the bigger question: why hasn't our 2 million dollar plus man, Tubby done a LOT better in the Big Ten Conference than he has??????

THAT is the only concern right now. badger joel maturi overpaid for Tubby big time, it appears.

I like Tubby just fine and think he's a pretty decent coach. However, based upon what he has achieved here, he certainly is WAY over paid.

I would guess he can stay here in his over paid situation for pretty much as long as he wants. I certainly wouldn't automatically recommend that if Georgia Tech wants to offer to pay him more than Minnesota that Minnesota should automatically match their offer...up their offer and offer a long-term even MORE over-paid contract for a 500 Big Ten life-time record or less though. There truely IS a point of diminishing returns. The BARN still isn't selling out.

But, just remember those numbers about Minnesota VS wisky in football AND in basketball friend of tubby. Minnesota has a 59 to 53 advantage and they have tied 8 times out of 120 meetings since 1890. And in hoops, the advantage is 92 to 87 in favor of the Gophers over the stinking badgers starting in 1900.

*Thanks to Eric Thrall and his history of Minnesota Football & Basketball site!
 

Friend Of Tubby said:
Basketball (titles and NCAA since The Barn opened) in 1920's:

Wisky = 1389-1117 all-time. 7 B10 titles, 16 NCAA appearances - 1 NC title, 2 FF.

Minny = 1303-986 all-time. 4 B10 titles, 10 NCAA appearances - 0 NC, 1 FF.
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Maybe you should start in the 1950's like you did for football. Wisconsin was easily the worst or close to the worst B10 program from the 1950's until about 2000. That's really not an exaggeration. They were very bad for many decades.
 

And yet again...FOT fails to read and understand and uses the stats that suit him...like football since WW2 and BB since 1920???? WTF - Who cares about BB before 1960 other than Kentucky????

But most of all....you missed my entire point each time i have made it...you said Wiscy is better than MN because of Tradition...and I say its because they have had better coaches and players.

If you look at the year to year stats in FB and BB you will see that the years that we had a better coach...we had better players and we won more games and vice versa.

Wiscy BB sucked until Bennett was hired..and then Bo...Wiscy FB sucked until Alvarez took over...MN BB was successful under Musselman, Dutcher and Clem and sucked under the rest...we won in FB when we had good coaches (about a 60 years ago) and not since.

Tradition means nothing...good coaches win no matter where they coach...it has been proven time and again...good coaches get good players for their system and they win...tradition be damned.

And just an FYI...you can crap stats until your *ss bleeds...and not a single Gopher fan will ever give you that Wiscy has a longer and more proud tradition than us in Football...no matter what the last 20 years were like...we were winning national championships while Wiscy was still sucking on their mama's titty...and we will rise above them again.
 

This thread is beyond frustrating. You can't say one team has a better tradition than the other, but NOT INCLUDE ALL OF THE HISTORICAL DATA when comparing the two. That's beyond faulty.

Furthermore, neither Minnesota or Wisconsin even has a strong enough tradition to make it a determining factor as to why one is having more success than the other right now.
 

Gophers Fans Have Every Right To Demand More

Gopher football and basketball (going back as far as you like) are near the bottom of the barrel among Big 10 teams.

No excuse for such weak traditions at a school with the resources of Minnesota.
 

imthewalrus said:
In the history of the football series with the stinking badgers, the numbers read like this:

Minnesota 59 wins

wisky 53 wins

there have been 8 ties.

NOW comes the BIGGIE friend of tubby:

In Basketball, Minnesota has 92 wins vs. wisky and 87 losses. Once again, Minnesota holds the head to head competition edge over the stinking wisky badgers.

That, of course is NOT to brag about how the Gophers have done. No, not at all friend of tubby. That is ONLY to let you know that you are making a BAD argument...a flawed argument...a failed argument. During that period of time, there were times when the Gophers had long runs of success against the stinking badgers and there have also been times when the stinking badgers have had long runs of success against the Gophers. But, in the end, the Gophers have beaten the stinking badgers MORE than the stinking badgers have beaten the Gophers.




Now, on to the bigger question: why hasn't our 2 million dollar plus man, Tubby done a LOT better in the Big Ten Conference than he has??????

THAT is the only concern right now. badger joel maturi overpaid for Tubby big time, it appears.

I like Tubby just fine and think he's a pretty decent coach. However, based upon what he has achieved here, he certainly is WAY over paid.

I would guess he can stay here in his over paid situation for pretty much as long as he wants. I certainly wouldn't automatically recommend that if Georgia Tech wants to offer to pay him more than Minnesota that Minnesota should automatically match their offer...up their offer and offer a long-term even MORE over-paid contract for a 500 Big Ten life-time record or less though. There truely IS a point of diminishing returns. The BARN still isn't selling out.

But, just remember those numbers about Minnesota VS wisky in football AND in basketball friend of tubby. Minnesota has a 59 to 53 advantage and they have tied 8 times out of 120 meetings since 1890. And in hoops, the advantage is 92 to 87 in favor of the Gophers over the stinking badgers starting in 1900.

*Thanks to Eric Thrall and his history of Minnesota Football & Basketball site!
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Head-2-head, congratulations.

OVERALL, Minnesota < Wisconsin.
 

josh087 said:
This thread is beyond frustrating. You can't say one team has a better tradition than the other, but NOT INCLUDE ALL OF THE HISTORICAL DATA when comparing the two. That's beyond faulty.

Furthermore, neither Minnesota or Wisconsin even has a strong enough tradition to make it a determining factor as to why one is having more success than the other right now.
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All-time here http://webpages.charter.net/dbwoerner/coaches/schl110.htm are how all schools have done in NCAA tourney games since 1939 when it started.
 


Friend Of Tubby said:
Head-2-head, congratulations.

OVERALL, Minnesota < Wisconsin.
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FOT, you made a foolish statement (which, initially, was NOT just about football and hoops. Rather, "athletics") and have steadfastly refused to acknowledge its inaccuracy. Worse than that, you show up on our boards relatively recently (in the broad scheme of things) and throw down what you must know is the most insulting charge possible to the Gopher faithful, and can't quite grasp why you're getting such vitriol directed back at you. You try to re-frame the charge (only meant football, then only meant post-WWII, and hoops (post Williams arena) when the heat gets turned up. You wriggle and deflect just like Tubby Smith! No wonder you've got such affinity for this struggling coach. Tell ya what: if we go on to miss the big dance and Tubby decides to leave, will you do us the favor of kindly following suit? With friends like you (and Tubby), who needs enemies (like the stinking WI Badgers)?
 

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