It’s Time for Coyle to hit F#€k it!

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MennoSota said:
It's over. We can go the way of the University of Chicago. Cut all sports from the University of Minnesota. There is no hope.
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If the least qualified Big 10 coach can't do it, no one can.

This type of hissy fit is exactly the hissy fit Pilgrim lashed out with when he was faced with reality.

You're essentially the kid who throws the controller and says "the game is cheating". I suppose for you it beats the alternative of being so dug in on a horrific take that you're buried in it.
 

bleedsmaroonandgold said:
What if he hires Whalen to coach the men's team and Johnson to coach the women's team. That way, he doesn't have to pay a buyout to either!
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Honestly, this would be fun to see! Not going to happen, but I would be way more excited on the Men's side to see Whalen coaching than Ben again. The rinse and repeat of the last 2 years...I will pass.

I would be curious to see how it would turn out. The bar for success on both team's is so low...it really couldn't be much worse.
 

Coyle is announcing tomorrow that he is resigning and all sports have been dissolved at UMN.
 



For fun, let's say the 5 new guys are good! Ihnen and Fox surprise everybody! And the Gophers go 8 and 12 in the conference next year. Is that the ceiling?
If the records would stay the same...we'd finish 13th rather than 14th. We probably lose 4-5 of those guys to graduation and transfer so we'd start over the fourth time in a row and struggle to stay out of 14th in year 4.
Meanwhile Iowa State is in the NCAA two years in a row from the same starting line.
Penn State plays in the Big Ten Tournament Championship and loses at the wire moving on to the NCAA Tournament from the same starting point.
Richard Pitino takes over a complete dumpster fire and in his second year wins 22 games and is selling out games in the post season.
I just don't see Ben catching these guys, let alone the established traditional conference powers. There are no signs we are building a program going into year 3.
 

60's Guy said:
For fun, let's say the 5 new guys are good! Ihnen and Fox surprise everybody! And the Gophers go 8 and 12 in the conference next year. Is that the ceiling?
If the records would stay the same...we'd finish 13th rather than 14th. We probably lose 4-5 of those guys to graduation and transfer so we'd start over the fourth time in a row and struggle to stay out of 14th in year 4.
Meanwhile Iowa State is in the NCAA two years in a row from the same starting line.
Penn State plays in the Big Ten Tournament Championship and loses at the wire moving on to the NCAA Tournament from the same starting point.
Richard Pitino takes over a complete dumpster fire and in his second year wins 22 games and is selling out games in the post season.
I just don't see Ben catching these guys, let alone the established traditional conference powers. There are no signs we are building a program going into year 3.
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Point taken but the premise of 8 wins being 13th place as it was this year is pretty rare. This was an odd year with the separation being so tight. Typically 8 wins would be closer to 10th when there are two or three teams that separate themselves from the rest of the league rather than one.

That doesn’t negate the reality that practically no foundation has been laid. Last year, understood. No growth this year is a disaster.
 

60's Guy said:
For fun, let's say the 5 new guys are good! Ihnen and Fox surprise everybody! And the Gophers go 8 and 12 in the conference next year. Is that the ceiling?
If the records would stay the same...we'd finish 13th rather than 14th. We probably lose 4-5 of those guys to graduation and transfer so we'd start over the fourth time in a row and struggle to stay out of 14th in year 4.
Meanwhile Iowa State is in the NCAA two years in a row from the same starting line.
Penn State plays in the Big Ten Tournament Championship and loses at the wire moving on to the NCAA Tournament from the same starting point.
Richard Pitino takes over a complete dumpster fire and in his second year wins 22 games and is selling out games in the post season.
I just don't see Ben catching these guys, let alone the established traditional conference powers. There are no signs we are building a program going into year 3.
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And just for FUN I’ll post with the opposite assumptions.

Maybe a new avocation?
 




Holy Man said:
Point taken but the premise of 8 wins being 13th place as it was this year is pretty rare. This was an odd year with the separation being so tight. Typically 8 wins would be closer to 10th when there are two or three teams that separate themselves from the rest of the league rather than one.

That doesn’t negate the reality that practically no foundation has been laid. Last year, understood. No growth this year is a disaster.
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My concern is that a new floor has been established and that it's the new Northwestern from the old days or Rutgers or Nebraska more recently. I hope this isn't the case, but perception forms reality when it comes to these matters, and what is the perception of the Minnesota program at this time?

I actually think it's understandable conceptually that we took a step back in year two, and it's because we got younger. We got younger because we recruited freshmen, and you can't say you're hiring a local guy with local AAU connections if you're not actually going to recruit high school players. That would have been cognitive dissonance. So we got younger and established a local recruiting presence under the new staff, including getting Mr. Basketball, which was important. The problem is that the place you took a step backward from was already last place, which this year put you in last place with a bullet. That's the new floor, and it's a long way looking up from that vantage point to where a self-respecting program wants to be.
 

Its possible that Coyle likely had a lot of noise around the last hiring from AAU higher ups and likely the Suggs family and others saying ‘oh yeah, I’d a stayed home if Ben….. blah blah blah. Coyle ate it up. Oops.
 

Bad Gopher said:
My concern is that a new floor has been established and that it's the new Northwestern from the old days or Rutgers or Nebraska more recently. I hope this isn't the case, but perception forms reality when it comes to these matters, and what is the perception of the Minnesota program at this time?

I actually think it's understandable conceptually that we took a step back in year two, and it's because we got younger. We got younger because we recruited freshmen, and you can't say you're hiring a local guy with local AAU connections if you're not actually going to recruit high school players. That would have been cognitive dissonance. So we got younger and established a local recruiting presence under the new staff, including getting Mr. Basketball, which was important. The problem is that the place you took a step backward from was already last place, which this year put you in last place with a bullet. That's the new floor, and it's a long way looking up from that vantage point to where a self-respecting program wants to be.
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Amen. It's time for the administration to step up and commit to be competitive in the environment we live in now, and not what might have worked 15 years ago. In hindsight, the local recruiting emphasis was a distraction from focusing on someone who could coach basketball, and may have set us back even further. The local recruiting issue was real (even if in the best of circumstances we're not getting many, if any, five star local recruits.

The current staff needed to put a team on the floor that would have shown the fan base something to be hopeful in for next year. Two wins in the last four games doesn't cut it. The best I can do is say there was evidence they didn't give up and mail it in.
 

Spaulding!No! said:
Its possible that Coyle likely had a lot of noise around the last hiring from AAU higher ups and likely the Suggs family and others saying ‘oh yeah, I’d a stayed home if Ben….. blah blah blah. Coyle ate it up. Oops.
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Someone should ask Suggs that same question now. I didn't think his remarks were helpful then, and my mind hasn't changed on that.
 



Bad Gopher said:
That's the new floor, and it's a long way looking up from that vantage point to where a self-respecting program wants to be.
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I agree with that but I still think Johnson deserves a 3rd year just to make his tenure comparable with other failed coaches and it doesn't look like he's going to be fired this season anyway (likely would have been done by now). If we don't see at least a .500 or better season next year, I would want him to be fired and would be irritated if he wasn't.

I just don't see the point of so many people continuing to argue that he should be fired now when that appears to be very unlikely. There is no argument about the results. They speak for themselves. The evidence so far indicates that he is unlikely to be a long-term solution but he deserves at least one more season to show that he could be.
 

cjbfbp said:
I agree with that but I still think Johnson deserves a 3rd year just to make his tenure comparable with other failed coaches and it doesn't look like he's going to be fired this season anyway (likely would have been done by now). If we don't see at least a .500 or better season next year, I would want him to be fired and would be irritated if he wasn't.

I just don't see the point of so many people continuing to argue that he should be fired now when that appears to be very unlikely. There is no argument about the results. They speak for themselves. The evidence so far indicates that he is unlikely to be a long-term solution but he deserves at least one more season to show that he could be.
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Let me add a friendly amendment about a .500 record. I can easily see the schedule being manipulated to set up 12 wins in the preseason, so two or three in conference gets them to .500 or close. Real and acceptable advancement would be .500 in the B1G. I'm with Bad that the floor is so low that what was unacceptable two years ago is taken as a harbinger of great things to come in the next year. That's grim and toys with the shrinking fan base that actually cares.

Demanding a dismissal when it isn't going to happen is a fools errand, and likely to make us more miserable than we already are.
 

Holy Man said:
The local recruiting issue was real (even if in the best of circumstances we're not getting many, if any, five star local recruits.
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Which is fine because there aren't many to get. There really aren't that many five star recruits in the entire nation (247 sports listed 22 in 2022).
 

Gopher Teeth said:
I don't think this stuff is as clever as you think it is.
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It's real. The facts are in. The University regents just voted to follow the University of Chicago out the door of the B1G. There is no hope for college athletics at UMN. All hope is lost.
 

Isn’t there a hot looking former WNBA basketball star recruits would want to be yelled at by?

I think a black female applicant might convince the regents to move on.
 

Holy Man said:
Let me add a friendly amendment about a .500 record. I can easily see the schedule being manipulated to set up 12 wins in the preseason, so two or three in conference gets them to .500 or close. Real and acceptable advancement would be .500 in the B1G. I'm with Bad that the floor is so low that what was unacceptable two years ago is taken as a harbinger of great things to come in the next year. That's grim and toys with the shrinking fan base that actually cares.

Demanding a dismissal when it isn't going to happen is a fools errand, and likely to make us more miserable than we already are.
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Not sure how much of the schedule is set but I'd agree, if you thought this NC season was woefully bad competition, wait until next year. They will want to bank wins with all of the worst teams they can get. Such a terrible standard to set.
 

Holy Man said:
Let me add a friendly amendment about a .500 record. I can easily see the schedule being manipulated to set up 12 wins in the preseason, so two or three in conference gets them to .500 or close. Real and acceptable advancement would be .500 in the B1G. I'm with Bad that the floor is so low that what was unacceptable two years ago is taken as a harbinger of great things to come in the next year. That's grim and toys with the shrinking fan base that actually cares.
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The non conference is a maximum of 11 games now assuming you get to play all of them. We haven't played that many in the last two seasons (9 in 2022 and 10 in the 2023 season). Usually there are going to be at least a couple of decent teams among those non-conference opponents. Johnson's team won 9 of 9 in 2022 (the team played surprisingly well in that part of the season) but only 6 of 10 in 2023.

Let's say we played 11 non-conference games and finished 9-2. That result is by no means assured. We would have to win at least 7 Big Ten games to get to 16-15 on a 31 game regular season. That may or may not be enough (although that seemed to be good enough for Hoiberg - a much more accomplished coach - in his 4th season). 17-14 I think would be pretty good under the circumstances but that would require winning 8 conference games.

Let's remember that we've had four losing seasons in a row. If we can at least break that streak, that should be viewed as some accomplishment.
 

MennoSota said:
It's real. The facts are in. The University regents just voted to follow the University of Chicago out the door of the B1G. There is no hope for college athletics at UMN. All hope is lost.
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It appears you have said whoa in this horse race. Grab those reins and give her tap… come on Ben could turn this around.
 

Holy Man said:
Let me add a friendly amendment about a .500 record. I can easily see the schedule being manipulated to set up 12 wins in the preseason, so two or three in conference gets them to .500 or close. Real and acceptable advancement would be .500 in the B1G. I'm with Bad that the floor is so low that what was unacceptable two years ago is taken as a harbinger of great things to come in the next year. That's grim and toys with the shrinking fan base that actually cares.

Demanding a dismissal when it isn't going to happen is a fools errand, and likely to make us more miserable than we already are.
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The thing is though...college basketball is so dependent on NET rankings that you end up hearing about that NET ranking more than a team's actual record. Even if the gophers are nowhere close to a bubble team (which they won't be) having an 11-0 record against 300+ NET teams isn't going to move any needle on perception...especially if they have 5 or less Big Ten wins again.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Someone should ask Suggs that same question now. I didn't think his remarks were helpful then, and my mind hasn't changed on that.
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The fact that anybody believe people like Suggs is beyond me. His remarks were 100% self-serving. That "noise" was the most obvious BS, I've ever heard. It's kind of like when the Super Bowl favorites win the Super Bowl and talk about how everyone doubted them.

Suggs was NEVER going to come to the U and play basketball and football. He was simply too good of a basketball player. If he came to the U to play both sports, he would have had to be on a football scholarship. Do we really think a lottery pick was going to risk it all to play football? Would he have started his basketball season in mid January? The timeline simply makes no sense for someone who was going to be a top NBA draft pick like Suggs. He was lying on a podcast.

None of those players would have came here to play for Ben. It would have been lip service followed heart break. The fact that they started chirping about a program they never played for and (never would have) to be part of the story is annoying. They should have been universally dismissed as nonsense. Instead, some local sportswriters and some Gopher fans essentially fell in love with the stripper who laughs at their jokes.
 

cjbfbp said:
The non conference is a maximum of 11 games now assuming you get to play all of them. We haven't played that many in the last two seasons (9 in 2022 and 10 in the 2023 season). Usually there are going to be at least a couple of decent teams among those non-conference opponents. Johnson's team won 9 of 9 in 2022 (the team played surprisingly well in that part of the season) but only 6 of 10 in 2023.

Let's say we played 11 non-conference games and finished 9-2. That result is by no means assured. We would have to win at least 7 Big Ten games to get to 16-15 on a 31 game regular season. That may or may not be enough (although that seemed to be good enough for Hoiberg - a much more accomplished coach - in his 4th season). 17-14 I think would be pretty good under the circumstances but that would require winning 8 conference games.

Let's remember that we've had four losing seasons in a row. If we can at least break that streak, that should be viewed as some accomplishment.
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IMO that should the minimum for Ben Johnson to get a fourth year.
 

This program is in a black hole right now. The transfer rule has killed many teams in college basketball. Too easy for guys to pick up and leave. Minnesota has to win for this to turn around and get good players to stay. How does that happen though when every year 5 guys transfer and i need to recruit 5 to replace them from mid-majors. I get it, you need to coach your ass off and get better recruits. A tough task when you have to replace a number of guys every year and there is nothing to sell. Only way out is to have administration spend money and show that they want to win. Ole Miss doesn't care about how they look in going after Chris Beard. Why would they, theyre gonna win probably right away.
 

gophereric30 said:
How does that happen though when every year 5 guys transfer and i need to recruit 5 to replace them from mid-majors.
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Well, there isn't any indication so far that we'll have 5 guys transfer out. We'll likely have 5 gone but only two of them so far are transfers. As far as mid-major players, these mid-major players have worked pretty well for our Big Ten opponents this season:

Jahmir Young, Maryland (from Charlotte)

Filip Rebraca, Iowa (from North Dakota)

Jalen Pickett, PSU (from Siena)

Andrew Funk, PSU (from Bucknell)

Camren Winter, PSU (from Drexel)

Cam Spencer, Rutgers (from Loyola Maryland)

Max Klesmit, Wisconsin (from Wofford)

Sam Griesel, Nebraska (from NDSU)

What all of these players have in common is that they had a record of accomplishment at their prior schools and a pretty high level of maturity.
 

leib0039 said:
Not sure how much of the schedule is set but I'd agree, if you thought this NC season was woefully bad competition, wait until next year. They will want to bank wins with all of the worst teams they can get. Such a terrible standard to set.
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Well, given that we finished only 6-4 in the non conference season, I'd say that the schedule wasn't that bad as far as nonconference schedules go.

You really are a miserable wretch. Why don't you wait until the schedule is revealed before complaining about it?
 
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cjbfbp said:
Well, there isn't any indication so far that we'll have 5 guys transfer out. We'll likely have 5 gone but only two of them so far are transfers. As far as mid-major players, these mid-major players have worked pretty well for our Big Ten opponents this season:

Jahmir Young, Maryland (from Charlotte)

Filip Rebraca, Iowa (from North Dakota)

Jalen Pickett, PSU (from Siena)

Andrew Funk, PSU (from Bucknell)

Camren Winter, PSU (from Drexel)

Cam Spencer, Rutgers (from Loyola Maryland)

Max Klesmit, Wisconsin (from Wofford)

Sam Griesel, Nebraska (from NDSU)

What all of these players have in common is that they had a record of accomplishment at their prior schools and a pretty high level of maturity.
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Right. I agree. The difference though is we need 5 of these guys to offset the mid major guys that aren't big ten calibur.
 

tmvander said:
The thing is though...college basketball is so dependent on NET rankings that you end up hearing about that NET ranking more than a team's actual record. Even if the gophers are nowhere close to a bubble team (which they won't be) having an 11-0 record against 300+ NET teams isn't going to move any needle on perception...especially if they have 5 or less Big Ten wins again.
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Exactly. Which is why the arbitrary benchmark of a .500 record is next to meaningless. I have not established my own benchmark for next year, but it will likely be more feel than measurable stats. Regardless of our benchmark, the feel this year is terrible and the numbers match the feel.
 


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