Is It Realistic to Move On From Johnson This Year?

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Dave H said:
I have avoided this side of the board all year cause I knew the team was going to be bad and I didn't want to deal with a lot of the negativity and the extra curricular/toxic aspects of the fights it would lead to. (see any of the other threads) I defended the Ben Johnson hire (even if he was NOT who I wanted as coach) but knew it was going to be a bumpy road so I figured I would just passively deal with what would be a bad year hoping that we would see something that would inspire confidence like we saw at times last year...

With that said the answer to the question of whether it is realistic is a resounding YES. It likely won't happen (and we will hear many theories on why it doesn't if it doesn't) but there really is no argument to keep him. Look if we were a last place team that was in every game and was playing better now than earlier in the Big Ten season we could hang our hat on him coaching up lesser than players and needing time to get the roster filled with guys that can play his style. That just isn't happening. Even if Evans was coming in next year the team doesn't feel like a team poised to make a jump in any real way which means Johnson is likely on a seat so hot he is a dead man walking. Why delay a year? We delayed too long on Pitino and it lead to a dumpster fire which ultimately lead us to where we are now.

The thing is though we can't just make a change for change's sake. We need to have a plan. There needs to be someone who you can plug in a month or so after the end of the season and can hit the ground running. If they fire Ben and then twiddle their thumbs it will likely become a disaster especially since we know the local media will spit all over them every time they don't hire whatever name comes up in rumors. They need to put out the feelers now and see if anyone worth a damn is interested. If they even get a hint that a quality guy wants the job then Ben's last day needs to be the Big Ten Tournament.

I know who I would prefer but I just dont know that they would pull the trigger to make it happen when it comes to Ben's buyout. If they are willing to fire him though I think there are options out there that will get the fans to care and won't be a reach.
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It’s the U. You know how the hiring process goes. It would be months before we hear anything.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't blame you for seeing progress with your heart. But honestly, what progress have you seen this year? I'd love to hear it. I've seen moments where Payne looks promising. I actually like Garcia more than most and I think Henley flashes at times. That's really about it for me. How about you?

I've never seen the movie Behind the Curve, but it looks like it's about flat earth theory. Those are also folks who ignore all that inconvenient "data"

Btw - most executives weren't missing the "game" because they were focused on the "data", they were just looking at archaic data.
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JOJ has been much better than I expected. If he continues on his current trajectory he will be a beast to deal with as a senior. Carrington has played solid defense and flashes signs of being a solid shooter. Payne is going to cause a lot of pain to opponents over the next 3 years. Henley is growing up. All four are learning to play the game in a conference that is not kind to freshmen. Garcia has been solid. At present, the two who seem to struggle the most are Battle and Cooper. But, I think they struggle because they try to do too much. Battle is a catch and shoot guy who is often stopping ball movement by trying to dribble. He needs to be continually moving without the ball, making his defender chase. He needs to be coming off a variety of off ball screens that get him open shots off the catch. Cooper is foot slow. He has great vision, but he cannot start the offense of a dribble drive and kick out to a spot. This limits him. He would be better off ball.
So, as you and I both know, we need a true point guard. Ben knows it as well. I have no idea where he'll find that guard. I'd be scouring every Community College, D2, D1, and overseas team, looking to see who will come help. Someone is out there and Ben has to go get him.
This core group, if they stick around, will be a good team.
 

CentralGopher said:
It’s the U. You know how the hiring process goes. It would be months before we hear anything.
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Oh I am well aware. They didn't with some of the hires Coyle has made though but those had some pretty obvious choices. That is why you don't make the decision until you know someone good is interested.

Put it this way, you don't make this move to hire Craig Smith or Nico Medved. Don't get me wrong both are fine coaches and both would have been better options than the choice we made but honestly I think that would seem like a weak move to the average fan and the media. It has to be a name that people recognize and has a resume commensurate with a Big Ten job. I mean you are eating a lot of salary to make the move the name has to be worth that kind of money on top of their salary requirements. Now maybe that is someone with ties to the team or maybe it is a former coach somewhere else with cache but it has to be someone people can get behind and justify watching another rebuild for.

For me it is Dutcher. I think it is the easy choice and I think it is the safest choice for a ton of reasons. Personally I would have called him already but he is the barometer by which I would make the decision. If he says no then we have to decide how much we want to reach to make a hire. We don't have a lot of rope left and we can't afford another fiasco like when we got Pitino so the calculus might change if he or someone of his ilk isn't interested. If he says he is interested then you ask him what it will take and start making preparations for the change.

I am sure there are other splashy names out there that might take the job, I just don't watch enough to know anymore. I would rather avoid coaches with controversy on their resume like Beard and Marshall but I can understand why many want them.
 

Dave H said:
Oh I am well aware. They didn't with some of the hires Coyle has made though but those had some pretty obvious choices. That is why you don't make the decision until you know someone good is interested.

Put it this way, you don't make this move to hire Craig Smith or Nico Medved. Don't get me wrong both are fine coaches and both would have been better options than the choice we made but honestly I think that would seem like a weak move to the average fan and the media. It has to be a name that people recognize and has a resume commensurate with a Big Ten job. I mean you are eating a lot of salary to make the move the name has to be worth that kind of money on top of their salary requirements. Now maybe that is someone with ties to the team or maybe it is a former coach somewhere else with cache but it has to be someone people can get behind and justify watching another rebuild for.

For me it is Dutcher. I think it is the easy choice and I think it is the safest choice for a ton of reasons. Personally I would have called him already but he is the barometer by which I would make the decision. If he says no then we have to decide how much we want to reach to make a hire. We don't have a lot of rope left and we can't afford another fiasco like when we got Pitino so the calculus might change if he or someone of his ilk isn't interested. If he says he is interested then you ask him what it will take and start making preparations for the change.

I am sure there are other splashy names out there that might take the job, I just don't watch enough to know anymore. I would rather avoid coaches with controversy on their resume like Beard and Marshall but I can understand why many want them.
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I like Brian but don’t think he’s interested for a number of reasons. The one thing I have reservations about with him is that he has been out of the Midwest for so long I wonder if his recruiting contacts would be as effective anymore.

I think they have forced their hand on needing a big name though. They have lost credibility on up and comers or under the radar choices. The problem is does someone with a Big Ten resume come.
 

Dave H said:
Oh I am well aware. They didn't with some of the hires Coyle has made though but those had some pretty obvious choices. That is why you don't make the decision until you know someone good is interested.

Put it this way, you don't make this move to hire Craig Smith or Nico Medved. Don't get me wrong both are fine coaches and both would have been better options than the choice we made but honestly I think that would seem like a weak move to the average fan and the media. It has to be a name that people recognize and has a resume commensurate with a Big Ten job. I mean you are eating a lot of salary to make the move the name has to be worth that kind of money on top of their salary requirements. Now maybe that is someone with ties to the team or maybe it is a former coach somewhere else with cache but it has to be someone people can get behind and justify watching another rebuild for.

For me it is Dutcher. I think it is the easy choice and I think it is the safest choice for a ton of reasons. Personally I would have called him already but he is the barometer by which I would make the decision. If he says no then we have to decide how much we want to reach to make a hire. We don't have a lot of rope left and we can't afford another fiasco like when we got Pitino so the calculus might change if he or someone of his ilk isn't interested. If he says he is interested then you ask him what it will take and start making preparations for the change.

I am sure there are other splashy names out there that might take the job, I just don't watch enough to know anymore. I would rather avoid coaches with controversy on their resume like Beard and Marshall but I can understand why many want them.
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I’d put Craig Smith more in the Dutcher range than Medved range but I can understand your thinking.

Dutcher would be fantastic and appears attainable.

To me, Musselman is out of reach financially for what we are looking to pay. I’m not even going to entertain that option.
 


Holy Man said:
I like Brian but don’t think he’s interested for a number of reasons. The one thing I have reservations about with him is that he has been out of the Midwest for so long I wonder if his recruiting contacts would be as effective anymore.

I think they have forced their hand on needing a big name though. They have lost credibility on up and comers or under the radar choices. The problem is does someone with a Big Ten resume come.
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He was...so you gotta call. (he has the low Minnesota buyout for a reason)

I am not saying it will work, but if he isnt at least willing to listen then we might be SOL because the options might be really big stretches.
 

Dave H said:
Oh I am well aware. They didn't with some of the hires Coyle has made though but those had some pretty obvious choices. That is why you don't make the decision until you know someone good is interested.

Put it this way, you don't make this move to hire Craig Smith or Nico Medved. Don't get me wrong both are fine coaches and both would have been better options than the choice we made but honestly I think that would seem like a weak move to the average fan and the media. It has to be a name that people recognize and has a resume commensurate with a Big Ten job. I mean you are eating a lot of salary to make the move the name has to be worth that kind of money on top of their salary requirements. Now maybe that is someone with ties to the team or maybe it is a former coach somewhere else with cache but it has to be someone people can get behind and justify watching another rebuild for.

For me it is Dutcher. I think it is the easy choice and I think it is the safest choice for a ton of reasons. Personally I would have called him already but he is the barometer by which I would make the decision. If he says no then we have to decide how much we want to reach to make a hire. We don't have a lot of rope left and we can't afford another fiasco like when we got Pitino so the calculus might change if he or someone of his ilk isn't interested. If he says he is interested then you ask him what it will take and start making preparations for the change.

I am sure there are other splashy names out there that might take the job, I just don't watch enough to know anymore. I would rather avoid coaches with controversy on their resume like Beard and Marshall but I can understand why many want them.
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Coyle did call Dutcher. He didn’t pursue it though. Maybe it was a money thing considering his buyout? Marshall and Beard are absolutely no gos here.
 

skiumah1 said:
I’d put Craig Smith more in the Dutcher range than Medved range but I can understand your thinking.

Dutcher would be fantastic and appears attainable.

To me, Musselman is out of reach financially for what we are looking to pay. I’m not even going to entertain that option.
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It’s more than financial for why Muss ain’t coming here. His wife is wants to live in the south, we don’t have a compliance dept that would take him on our end either. Muss plays some old TC media heads that got along with his dad because he gets raises out of it.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Good point about having a plan. I've always felt that firing someone and THEN trying to formulate a plan is doing things in the wrong order, but that seems to be the conventional procedure.

If I woke up tomorrow and found myself the AD, I'd be thinking about how my conversation with Musselman's agent might go. I reckon it might start something like, "I figure you're aware how things have been going here, and you might have been wondering if you'd be hearing from me. Well,..."
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You wouldn’t get a convo with Eric. You get a convo with his agent. He’d play you a bit and it’d leak so he gets a raise then he’d stop taking your calls. Built has really good connections and has shared them years ago. Nothing has changed except he has a better job and his wife has more say.
You need to find a coach who actually wants to be here and thinks they can win here. That will reduce your list a lot right there, but there are still good up and comers, but any truly established P6 coach isn’t coming here no matter what money we throw unless they are looking for a soft landing (Tubby). We need to find our Bo Ryan type of guy.
 



Gopherfan84 said:
You wouldn’t get a convo with Eric. You get a convo with his agent. He’d play you a bit and it’d leak so he gets a raise then he’d stop taking your calls. Built has really good connections and has shared them years ago. Nothing has changed except he has a better job and his wife has more say.
You need to find a coach who actually wants to be here and thinks they can win here. That will reduce your list a lot right there, but there are still good up and comers, but any truly established P6 coach isn’t coming here no matter what money we throw unless they are looking for a soft landing (Tubby). We need to find our Bo Ryan type of guy.
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Keep in mind that Bo having success at the P6 level was far from a sure thing in many people's minds. Both UW's successful hires (him and Bennett) were from a lower level of D1. There was no guarantee either would work. Bo wasn't even sure. He would have been content to coach at Milwaukee until he retired. Any hire from a lower level is a big risk.

Even Dutcher would come from a lower level to come here, as would Medved. The guy you now know can take a P6 team and elevate it is Smith.
 

Holy Man said:
I like Brian but don’t think he’s interested for a number of reasons. The one thing I have reservations about with him is that he has been out of the Midwest for so long I wonder if his recruiting contacts would be as effective anymore.

I think they have forced their hand on needing a big name though. They have lost credibility on up and comers or under the radar choices. The problem is does someone with a Big Ten resume come.
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This encapsulates the continued risk and harm of letting this go any further. One more year is another year into the abyss of credibility destruction, not just with coaching candidates but in the basketball community. High school underclassmen here and everywhere are growing up with this program fading into new territory of joke-ness. The more I think about this, the more it feels like the U is fiddling while Rome is burning.
 


GopherWeatherGuy said:
I’ve been a big Craig Smith fan for years, but this hasn’t been proven yet. It’ll be interesting to see how the next few years go.
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By the time someone is "proven," the ship has sailed on their availability. See Muss. There will be a window within where Smith can be got. It may already be closed.
 




Bad Gopher said:
By the time someone is "proven," the ship has sailed on their availability. See Muss. There will be a window within where Smith can be got. It may already be closed.
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I agree, and I believe that window has closed. My point is he still has a ways to go to prove he can build a winning program at the P6 level.
 

GopherWeatherGuy said:
I agree, and I believe that window has closed. My point is he still has a ways to go to prove he can build a winning program at the P6 level.
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The place to do that would have been here starting two years ago. Everywhere is a proving ground for anyone. There are no sure things.

The thing I keep wondering is who UW would target if they dump Gard.
 

Bad Gopher said:
Keep in mind that Bo having success at the P6 level was far from a sure thing in many people's minds. Both UW's successful hires (him and Bennett) were from a lower level of D1. There was no guarantee either would work. Bo wasn't even sure. He would have been content to coach at Milwaukee until he retired. Any hire from a lower level is a big risk.

Even Dutcher would come from a lower level to come here, as would Medved. The guy you now know can take a P6 team and elevate it is Smith.
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Exactly I don’t think we get a sure thing. We have to find our builder from lower levels and it won’t be obvious imo. I don’t think Smith could come now. It was part of why I was so adamant on getting him before.
 


Bad Gopher said:
The place to do that would have been here starting two years ago. Everywhere is a proving ground for anyone. There are no sure things.

The thing I keep wondering is who UW would target if they dump Gard.
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Wisconsin isn’t as enviable of a basketball job as they think. I don’t think they could get someone as good as Gard. I’d gladly take him here
 



Gopherfan84 said:
Wisconsin isn’t as enviable of a basketball job as they think. I don’t think they could get someone as good as Gard. I’d gladly take him here
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That would make me vomit, but the reality is that he has good relationships with Twin Cities basketball people and families, which is a great start. His system has not failed him in Wisconsin. He just doesn't have enough high level players to win big. For years the Badgers have been vulnerable to quick and aggressive teams, including ours during the Tubby years, and when their shooting digressed it has exposed their vulnerabilities. The 11 year-old shooter they have now could raise that up a bit over time, but they are in a slow decline now. My heart isn't bleeding.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Wisconsin isn’t as enviable of a basketball job as they think. I don’t think they could get someone as good as Gard. I’d gladly take him here
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The thing I wonder is whether they'd go wild-ass off the board and elevate Matt Lewis from D3. Once again he has Osh Kosh at 13-1 in the conference and could win another national championship. At the very least, I wonder whether/when Lewis jumps up to D1 ball, because the guy is arguably as ready as Bo was when he moved from Platteville to D1 Milwaukee.

I could be wrong, but I see Lewis as a successful D1 coach in the future, maybe the not-too-distant future.
 

Gopherfan84 said:
Coyle did call Dutcher. He didn’t pursue it though. Maybe it was a money thing considering his buyout? Marshall and Beard are absolutely no gos here.
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I know he did but that was 2 years ago. Different time different situation.

And I doubt it was money the buyout is $1 million for us. The quote from his AD has been posted many times.

We can't play the "up and comer" game we have failed on two straight young guys. That ship has sailed with the fans. If we hire someone and the fans say "who?" things will get ugly.

We are in an awful position...
 

Gophers_4life said:
That's just what you want to be true.
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What are you talking about? Our admin wouldn’t let us hire them. I’ve admired Beards coaching ability on this board for years. Called him the best college basketball coach. I don’t have control over any of it, but know what our admin would be willing to hire
 
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Bad Gopher said:
The thing I wonder is whether they'd go wild-ass off the board and elevate Matt Lewis from D3. Once again he has Osh Kosh at 13-1 in the conference and could win another national championship. At the very least, I wonder whether/when Lewis jumps up to D1 ball, because the guy is arguably as ready as Bo was when he moved from Platteville to D1 Milwaukee.

I could be wrong, but I see Lewis as a successful D1 coach in the future, maybe the not-too-distant future.
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Thanks for bringing him up. He will be a fun one to watch.
 

Bad Gopher said:
The thing I wonder is whether they'd go wild-ass off the board and elevate Matt Lewis from D3. Once again he has Osh Kosh at 13-1 in the conference and could win another national championship. At the very least, I wonder whether/when Lewis jumps up to D1 ball, because the guy is arguably as ready as Bo was when he moved from Platteville to D1 Milwaukee.

I could be wrong, but I see Lewis as a successful D1 coach in the future, maybe the not-too-distant future.
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WI just fired a successful football coach and went big sea fishing with Fickell. You think if they fired Gard they would go for a D3 guy? They would go after a big name hire.
 


leib0039 said:
WI just fired a successful football coach and went big sea fishing with Fickell. You think if they fired Gard they would go for a D3 guy? They would go after a big name hire.
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I'm good with that, because that leaves it open for him to lead the Gophs someday. Again, I could be wrong, but I see him as a coaching star in the making.
 

Dave H said:
I know he did but that was 2 years ago. Different time different situation.

And I doubt it was money the buyout is $1 million for us. The quote from his AD has been posted many times.

We can't play the "up and comer" game we have failed on two straight young guys. That ship has sailed with the fans. If we hire someone and the fans say "who?" things will get ugly.

We are in an awful position...
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I like Dutcher a lot. I worry about our admin being Leary of him being with Fisher since he had issues at Michigan (in the 90s but our admin seems the have the best memory possible. See Jimmy Williams). Just seemed odd him or Smith didn’t get more of a shot which makes me believe there was more in play here.
One hesitancy about Dutcher I said back 2-3 years ago is he does have the best job in the conference and to this one being middle of the pack at best. It’s part of why I liked Craig Smith so much. Guy does well at middle of the pack to bad jobs
 

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