Is It Realistic to Move On From Johnson This Year?

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In the eyes of the Administration and the Athletic Department, I find myself wondering what is the biggest obstacle to moving on;

- the price tag on the buyout

- the potential backlash for shitcanning a minority coach who is obviously over his skis

The next question would then become, are either of these legitimate reasons for not making a change after two absolutely HISTORIC failure seasons?
 


Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
In the eyes of the Administration and the Athletic Department, I find myself wondering what is the biggest obstacle to moving on;

- the price tag on the buyout

- the potential backlash for shitcanning a minority coach who is obviously over his skis

The next question would then become, are either of these legitimate reasons for not making a change after two absolutely HISTORIC failure seasons?
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The canary in the coal mine will be if the players stick around. Depending on who and how many decide to transfer will tell the administration if the players themselves believe in the vision or if they know a 3-ring shitshow when they see one.

These young adults aren't stupid. They have played enough basketball on enough elite teams to know if it is truly a lack of experience and injury issue or if the coach just doesn't have it. I hope the AD has been taking the pulse of the team. It will give him the best indication of what is really going on.
 

roadrunner said:
Every year, the Twin Cities produces maybe a dozen D1 talents. All you need is 25% of them to be competitive. The program will never be any better than bottom half of the BigTen anyway with all the drawbacks mentioned (and I didn't even include the climate). So why not focus on promoting local talent?
Guys like McHale, Rychart, Williams, Winter, Hoffharber, Pryzbilla, Lynch, Petersen, Shasky, White, Oturu, Rickert, Mbakwe, Landsberger, Humphries, Jacobsen, Coleman, Winfield, Breuer, Battle, Garcia etc. would support that.
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This isn’t true as far as 12 a year & getting 25% won’t ever happen consistently
 

skiumah1 said:
Many opinions on this and discussion in other threads, but does anybody actually feel that the administration would seriously move on from Johnson after this year? What would it take to do that / is he guaranteed at least 3-4?
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I think he deserves a chance to build the program since he took a program with only 1or 2 players returning and had to fill the roster with transfers. Give him time to bring in recruits and see if progress starts next year. Although losing Evans is a big setback. This year was worse than what I was expecting and I think it had some effect on Evan’s decision. I believe significant improvements will be needed next season if this program wants to move forward.
 


Well, there certainly is reason to fire him…

Record -truly historically abysmal! We are the stone cold lock of the century for the night we play to lose and lose big.

Coaching - Battle has regressed or is getting more defensive attention. Roster construction pretty much blows.

Recruiting - his saving grace, er, was his recruiting. But now we have an over 20 page thread on his re ruit pulling the plug!

Interest in team - it sure feels like it’s circling the drain.

Cons:

Firing a forced diversity hire - at this point, does anyone feel Mpls will be rioting if he goes? Might be more celebrating.

Buyout - always a reason not to with our cheap ass athletic department. You’d think the new TV contract would make this a non-issue. Especially with those empty seats.

Lack of quality interested coaches - this might be the single biggest factor of them all! Who wants in on this train wreck? Would have to be someone looking for redemption or a big break like Johnson got.

Face it, we are screwed either way. Football can’t start soon enough.

Thank God we have hockey! But they seem to let us down pretty often too.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
In the eyes of the Administration and the Athletic Department, I find myself wondering what is the biggest obstacle to moving on;

- the price tag on the buyout

- the potential backlash for shitcanning a minority coach who is obviously over his skis

The next question would then become, are either of these legitimate reasons for not making a change after two absolutely HISTORIC failure seasons?
Click to expand...

two points to add: Johnson is a MN native and a former Gopher player. That, more than anything, might be the factors that allow him to keep his job.

it's not just that he's a minority coach - it's that he's a minority coach, a MN native and a former Gopher player. That combination - IMHO - is why he got the job and it's why he'll keep the job for at least one more season.

the thread title ask if it is 'realistic' to move on from Johnson.

If Johnson had no ties to the state or the program, it might be realistic to move on. But considering his ties to the state, I feel it is much less realistic to think that he'll be fired.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
two points to add: Johnson is a MN native and a former Gopher player. That, more than anything, might be the factors that allow him to keep his job.

it's not just that he's a minority coach - it's that he's a minority coach, a MN native and a former Gopher player. That combination - IMHO - is why he got the job and it's why he'll keep the job for at least one more season.

the thread title ask if it is 'realistic' to move on from Johnson.

If Johnson had no ties to the state or the program, it might be realistic to move on. But considering his ties to the state, I feel it is much less realistic to think that he'll be fired.
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That’s an argue meant to fire him ASAP in itself!

Close your eyes and Erase Ben Johnson from this post and insert Scott Frost.

What do you think the right thing to do is now?
 

Otis said:
That’s an argue meant to fire him ASAP in itself!

Close your eyes and Erase Ben Johnson from this post and insert Scott Frost.

What do you think the right thing to do is now?
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Not wear a hoodie
 



Otis said:
That’s an argue meant to fire him ASAP in itself!

Close your eyes and Erase Ben Johnson from this post and insert Scott Frost.

What do you think the right thing to do is now?
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As I read SON's post, I kept thinking: again, the purported defense is actually an indictment. If those are the only factors causing you to retain someone...what are we running here?
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
We really weren’t close to wins. Our point differential was awful (also reflected in our KenPom). I think you’re mistaken because things are so awful right now, you think 12-15 point games are close. It’s not me being a curmudgeon, it’s just reality. It’s the numbers.
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Your numbers show me that you have never coached a day of basketball in your life and have never recognized the process. You hide behind numbers to keep from exposing your basketball acumen.
 

DarthGopher said:
The canary in the coal mine will be if the players stick around. Depending on who and how many decide to transfer will tell the administration if the players themselves believe in the vision or if they know a 3-ring shitshow when they see one.

These young adults aren't stupid. They have played enough basketball on enough elite teams to know if it is truly a lack of experience and injury issue or if the coach just doesn't have it. I hope the AD has been taking the pulse of the team. It will give him the best indication of what is really going on.
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Great observation. If we see a mass exodus at seasons end then that points squarely to coaching.
 

short ornery norwegian said:
two points to add: Johnson is a MN native and a former Gopher player. That, more than anything, might be the factors that allow him to keep his job.

it's not just that he's a minority coach - it's that he's a minority coach, a MN native and a former Gopher player. That combination - IMHO - is why he got the job and it's why he'll keep the job for at least one more season.

the thread title ask if it is 'realistic' to move on from Johnson.

If Johnson had no ties to the state or the program, it might be realistic to move on. But considering his ties to the state, I feel it is much less realistic to think that he'll be fired.
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I do chuckle at this. Technically yes you are correct. Also true, he thought so highly of the U that he went to frigging Northwestern first. Then had his gig as an asst coach here and decided to leave for a similar job at Xavier. People act like he was a lifer here who would give anything to be here. He left or didn't pick the U several times, why should we feel bad ousting him?
 



MennoSota said:
Your numbers show me that you have never coached a day of basketball in your life and have never recognized the process. You hide behind numbers to keep from exposing your basketball acumen.
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I know, I'm hiding behind the facts. You need to think we're closer than we have shown because you've dug in on a loser. I've been around basketball enough to know we have an awful point differential, awful record, and

I've never coached basketball outside of some third graders when I was in HS. Do you think this it requires being a basketball coach to know how bad we are?
 

leib0039 said:
I do chuckle at this. Technically yes you are correct. Also true, he thought so highly of the U that he went to frigging Northwestern first. Then had his gig as an asst coach here and decided to leave for a similar job at Xavier. People act like he was a lifer here who would give anything to be here. He left or didn't pick the U several times, why should we feel bad ousting him?
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Interesting point and you're right.

Did the U offer him out of high school? And I'd imagine he wasn't a big Pitino fan but to leave for Xavier was something.
 

Yes, and even I who has been a big critic of this regime and the overrated defense Thorson is praised for, I still think it SHOULDN'T happen, YET.

I like Ben, don't know him well but happy a D grad got the gig, he always seemed like a nice guy and had a knack for coaching even when he was still playing.....That being said, winning 1 game in a down year for the BIG is fireable in my opinion.

Why I say no, and the only reason is that the biggest jump a player makes is from freshman to sophomore season. I think Payne has elite potential and as everyone knows almost our entire team is freshman. IF half of them make a reasonable jump and one or two make a huge leap we could be dangerous next year, given that we sign a starting caliber PG

That's ALOT of maybes, but the upside or rolling the dice are better than a restart from this.....
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
I know, I'm hiding behind the facts. You need to think we're closer than we have shown because you've dug in on a loser. I've been around basketball enough to know we have an awful point differential, awful record, and

I've never coached basketball outside of some third graders when I was in HS. Do you think this it requires being a basketball coach to know how bad we are?
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I think you struggle to identify progress because you look at data and don't look at the game. You remind me of the executives in the movie "Behind the Curve" who looked at data and missed the game.
 

MennoSota said:
I think you struggle to identify progress because you look at data and don't look at the game. You remind me of the executives in the movie "Behind the Curve" who looked at data and missed the game.
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I don't blame you for seeing progress with your heart. But honestly, what progress have you seen this year? I'd love to hear it. I've seen moments where Payne looks promising. I actually like Garcia more than most and I think Henley flashes at times. That's really about it for me. How about you?

I've never seen the movie Behind the Curve, but it looks like it's about flat earth theory. Those are also folks who ignore all that inconvenient "data"

Btw - most executives weren't missing the "game" because they were focused on the "data", they were just looking at archaic data.
 

MennoSota said:
I think you struggle to identify progress because you look at data and don't look at the game. You remind me of the executives in the movie "Behind the Curve" who looked at data and missed the game.
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The two coaches you've defended the most on this board have been Ben Johnson and Tracy Claeys. I think you're the one who's 'Behind the Curve'.
 


TeamTubby said:
It should be realistic. Well all know it's inevitable that Ben will ultimately be fired. Why wait it out? Things aren't going to magically get better.
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That's the thing.

"We have to give him three years because reasons, then fire him" is idiotic.

He's a dead man walking. Waiting just compounds a bad mistake.

Can him. Today. Start the process of fixing this mess.
 

Bad Gopher said:
The drunks to our east must laugh at us, that we don't know a good candidate from a poor one when it comes time to hire a coach. Meanwhile, some programs in lesser conferences hit on coaching hire after coaching hire...because they HAVE to: their coaches leave for high major programs regularly.
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Gophers_4life said:
This might be the most damning point of all.

Regardless if you believe it was mostly (solely!) Coyle who did this, or if you believe there was heavy influence by Gable or others near her ..... they're all still there. They're all the same people.
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Coyle didn't do it of his own volition.
 

USAF said:
That's the thing.

"We have to give him three years because reasons, then fire him" is idiotic.

He's a dead man walking. Waiting just compounds a bad mistake.

Can him. Today. Start the process of fixing this mess.
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Yes, and do it by hiring someone who excels at recruiting female players. Nothing insane about that.
 

Ogee Ogilthorpe said:
In the eyes of the Administration and the Athletic Department, I find myself wondering what is the biggest obstacle to moving on;

- the price tag on the buyout

- the potential backlash for shitcanning a minority coach who is obviously over his skis

The next question would then become, are either of these legitimate reasons for not making a change after two absolutely HISTORIC failure seasons?
Click to expand...
Neither is legitimate. The barrier is flying on his ass in panic (Coyle) with no plan or structure. Firing Johnson as a panic reaction is no better than keeping him a year and lining up a 5 star replacement.
 

skiumah1 said:
Interesting point and you're right.

Did the U offer him out of high school? And I'd imagine he wasn't a big Pitino fan but to leave for Xavier was something.
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I think he was offered by Monson, but not certain. His departure from Pitino staff is clouded, with some suggesting he was shown the door while others say he quit in frustration over Richard’s inability or lack of desire to recruit locally. The gossip train says it was the Jelly/Wright fiasco that put Ben over the top.
 

I have avoided this side of the board all year cause I knew the team was going to be bad and I didn't want to deal with a lot of the negativity and the extra curricular/toxic aspects of the fights it would lead to. (see any of the other threads) I defended the Ben Johnson hire (even if he was NOT who I wanted as coach) but knew it was going to be a bumpy road so I figured I would just passively deal with what would be a bad year hoping that we would see something that would inspire confidence like we saw at times last year...

With that said the answer to the question of whether it is realistic is a resounding YES. It likely won't happen (and we will hear many theories on why it doesn't if it doesn't) but there really is no argument to keep him. Look if we were a last place team that was in every game and was playing better now than earlier in the Big Ten season we could hang our hat on him coaching up lesser than players and needing time to get the roster filled with guys that can play his style. That just isn't happening. Even if Evans was coming in next year the team doesn't feel like a team poised to make a jump in any real way which means Johnson is likely on a seat so hot he is a dead man walking. Why delay a year? We delayed too long on Pitino and it lead to a dumpster fire which ultimately lead us to where we are now.

The thing is though we can't just make a change for change's sake. We need to have a plan. There needs to be someone who you can plug in a month or so after the end of the season and can hit the ground running. If they fire Ben and then twiddle their thumbs it will likely become a disaster especially since we know the local media will spit all over them every time they don't hire whatever name comes up in rumors. They need to put out the feelers now and see if anyone worth a damn is interested. If they even get a hint that a quality guy wants the job then Ben's last day needs to be the Big Ten Tournament.

I know who I would prefer but I just dont know that they would pull the trigger to make it happen when it comes to Ben's buyout. If they are willing to fire him though I think there are options out there that will get the fans to care and won't be a reach.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
I don't blame you for seeing progress with your heart. But honestly, what progress have you seen this year? I'd love to hear it. I've seen moments where Payne looks promising. I actually like Garcia more than most and I think Henley flashes at times. That's really about it for me. How about you?

I've never seen the movie Behind the Curve, but it looks like it's about flat earth theory. Those are also folks who ignore all that inconvenient "data"

Btw - most executives weren't missing the "game" because they were focused on the "data", they were just looking at archaic data.
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Payne, JOJ, and Henley all marginally progressed. Battle seriously regressed and we don't really know why. Can't think it was coaching unless Ben just couldn't find the key to Battle and Garcia playing together.

Carrington didn't get enough time to judge progress.
 

Dave H said:
I have avoided this side of the board all year cause I knew the team was going to be bad and I didn't want to deal with a lot of the negativity and the extra curricular/toxic aspects of the fights it would lead to. (see any of the other threads) I defended the Ben Johnson hire (even if he was NOT who I wanted as coach) but knew it was going to be a bumpy road so I figured I would just passively deal with what would be a bad year hoping that we would see something that would inspire confidence like we saw at times last year...

With that said the answer to the question of whether it is realistic is a resounding YES. It likely won't happen (and we will hear many theories on why it doesn't if it doesn't) but there really is no argument to keep him. Look if we were a last place team that was in every game and was playing better now than earlier in the Big Ten season we could hang our hat on him coaching up lesser than players and needing time to get the roster filled with guys that can play his style. That just isn't happening. Even if Evans was coming in next year the team doesn't feel like a team poised to make a jump in any real way which means Johnson is likely on a seat so hot he is a dead man walking. Why delay a year? We delayed too long on Pitino and it lead to a dumpster fire which ultimately lead us to where we are now.

The thing is though we can't just make a change for change's sake. We need to have a plan. There needs to be someone who you can plug in a month or so after the end of the season and can hit the ground running. If they fire Ben and then twiddle their thumbs it will likely become a disaster especially since we know the local media will spit all over them every time they don't hire whatever name comes up in rumors. They need to put out the feelers now and see if anyone worth a damn is interested. If they even get a hint that a quality guy wants the job then Ben's last day needs to be the Big Ten Tournament.

I know who I would prefer but I just dont know that they would pull the trigger to make it happen when it comes to Ben's buyout. If they are willing to fire him though I think there are options out there that will get the fans to care and won't be a reach.
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One of the best posts on this matter to date and I think encapsulates what most of us are thinking.
 

Holy Man said:
One of the best posts on this matter to date and I think encapsulates what most of us are thinking.
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Good point about having a plan. I've always felt that firing someone and THEN trying to formulate a plan is doing things in the wrong order, but that seems to be the conventional procedure.

If I woke up tomorrow and found myself the AD, I'd be thinking about how my conversation with Musselman's agent might go. I reckon it might start something like, "I figure you're aware how things have been going here, and you might have been wondering if you'd be hearing from me. Well,..."
 

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