Is It Realistic to Move On From Johnson This Year?

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MennoSota said:
We are a true point guard away from winning at least half of our B1G games. It is unfortunate that Dennis Evans loves $$$ more than basketball. I want kids who want to be here and I think Ben gets one more year. (Whalen has been given a longer leash and she has been much worse so I give Johnson another year.)
I get it that the fans who want instant success and invitation to the dance are either going to leave or double-down on their bitching, but Ben gets another year. The kids have not quit playing. They just haven't been good enough...yet.
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You realize his NIL deal still allows (requires) him to play basketball, right? He loves $$$ more than playing for the U of MN.

Lindsay Whalen has been absolutely atrocious but she has been WAY better than CBJ.
  • Big 10 Winning Percentage: Lindsay's is almost 3 times better than Ben's. Think about that. Lindsay is a disaster and she has a .355 winning percentage and Ben Johnson has a .135 winning percentage.
  • Her worst season is better than Ben's best season.
  • Lindsay's team has never finished last in the Big 10. Ben's never finished anything but last.
You just say utter nonsense.

As to your first point, yeah, we're real close.
 

skiumah1 said:
I actually won’t totally disagree that there may be 9-10 Big 10 wins potential here next year, but I don’t think Ben is a coach who can bring that out.

Don’t waste Payne and Garcia. They’re a really nice 4/5 combo.
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His point is awful, you should disagree with it. I understand why it is tempting to agree with it because it was only the fifth dumbest thing in that post, but it's still nonsense.

If we added the best PG in the country, we might win 9-10 games in the Big 10, but that is utter meaningless. Every single team on the planet is THAT player away from winning at least 9 games in the Big 10.
 

cjbfbp said:
Apparently that poster didn't understand the critical differences between D1 basketball and hockey:

1) There are 62 D1 hockey teams vs. 360+ D1 basketball teams;

2) This state produces more D1 hockey players than any other US state (by a fair amount actually; Massachusetts and New York are in second and third place). Minnesota isn't even in the Top 20 states for producing nationally ranked high school basketball recruits. The only Big Ten states ranked lower are Wisconsin, Iowa, and Nebraska.
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Every year, the Twin Cities produces maybe a dozen D1 talents. All you need is 25% of them to be competitive. The program will never be any better than bottom half of the BigTen anyway with all the drawbacks mentioned (and I didn't even include the climate). So why not focus on promoting local talent?
Guys like McHale, Rychart, Williams, Winter, Hoffharber, Pryzbilla, Lynch, Petersen, Shasky, White, Oturu, Rickert, Mbakwe, Landsberger, Humphries, Jacobsen, Coleman, Winfield, Breuer, Battle, Garcia etc. would support that.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Joan of Arc’s got nothing on you brother.
Gasp there are no other games on that TV or other social activities to participate in.

varied interests other than watching some sort of ball being chased others on a screen or in person occasionally and/or they’ve seen enough of life downs and/or matured to it mattering that much to them - they simply enjoy it for what it is and not for what it isn’t.

Highly doubt on your death bed, you’ll lament Ben Johnson’s coaching record🤨
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Yeah, point taken, but I'm far from the only person who likes sports, music and film. Sporting events are high drama: better than most shows on the screen. That's why they're so popular, especially in this age of watered-down media.

I'd like my alma mater to do well. Posing your point on its head, on my deathbed, I'll fondly remember all the Gopher stuff, including and especially those tournament runs. Those times are inseparable from the people we experienced them with and the fun and fellowship we had surrounding them. I will indeed lament that there weren't more of them.
 

skiumah1 said:
Who is that PG worth 9 more wins and is he attainable?
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The point guard who can do something like that is unknown to any of us today.

Even if he transfers to Minnesota this spring we won't know him. He will be a somewhat unheralded junior-to-be from a non- power 6 school. He will be ready to break out.

That's Ben's shot at saving next season and his job. It's a half court shot.
 


Bob_Loblaw said:
His point is awful, you should disagree with it. I understand why it is tempting to agree with it because it was only the fifth dumbest thing in that post, but it's still nonsense.

If we added the best PG in the country, we might win 9-10 games in the Big 10, but that is utter meaningless. Every single team on the planet is THAT player away from winning at least 9 games in the Big 10.
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All of his points are awful.
 


Bad Gopher said:
Yeah, point taken, but I'm far from the only person who likes sports,
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Never said it was you were
Bad Gopher said:
music and film.
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Varied interests- my point.
Bad Gopher said:
Sporting events are high drama: better than most shows on the screen. That's why they're so popular, especially in this age of watered-down media.

I'd like my alma mater to do well.
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Never said I wish the converse; simply stated it’s not an end all be all as it was in my salad days - things changed for me a lot once I hit 50 and survived a serious health scare prior to that milestone.
Bad Gopher said:
Posing your point on its head, on my deathbed, I'll fondly remember all the Gopher stuff, including and especially those tournament runs. Those times are inseparable from the people we experienced them with and the fun and fellowship we had surrounding them. I will indeed lament that there weren't more of them.
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I’ll recall my family the ones I’m leaving on this plane and the ones I’ll be joining (hopefully) in the next.

FWIW -
A dear friend is a priest, who also serves as an NYPD chaplain and we we’re talking about his experience with the Last Rites and he told in all the times he’s performed them, he’s never had one person say they wished they would have earned or accumulated more, it’s always that they regret not spending more time with their family.
 

Gopher_In_NYC said:
Never said it was you were

Varied interests- my point.

Never said I wish the converse; simply stated it’s not an end all be all as it was in my salad days - things changed for me a lot once I hit 50 and survived a serious health scare prior to that milestone.

I’ll recall my family the ones I’m leaving on this plane and the ones I’ll be joining (hopefully) in the next.

FWIW -
A dear friend is a priest, who also serves as an NYPD chaplain and we we’re talking about his experience with the Last Rites and he told in all the times he’s performed them, he’s never had one person say they wished they would have earned or accumulated more, it’s always that they regret not spending more time with their family.
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You just reminded me of this...

 



howeda7 said:
The worst thing that can happen is running it back next year and winning 4-6 B1G games. That would be both "progress" and better than Pitino did in year 3, giving the ignorant Souhan's of the world much ammo.
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Firing someone after two years is unprecedented for this program in recent times and I can't think of a Big Ten program that has done that in recent memory. However, Iowa fired Todd Lickliter after three years and Rutgers did the same with Eddie Jordan and he was college star for them as well as a former NBA player and coach. You're expecting a lot here. Maybe you just need to be patient and wait it out for at least one more year. It won't kill you.
 

cjbfbp said:
Firing someone after two years is unprecedented for this program in recent times and I can't think of a Big Ten program that has done that in recent memory. However, Iowa fired Todd Lickliter after three years and Rutgers did the same with Eddie Jordan and he was college star for them as well as a former NBA player and coach. You're expecting a lot here. Maybe you just need to be patient and wait it out for at least one more year. It won't kill you.
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I fully acknowledge there's a 90% chance he's back next year and am resigned to that fact. But I'm also 90% certain how this movie ends and I'd like it to be over as soon as possible.
 

cjbfbp said:
Firing someone after two years is unprecedented for this program in recent times and I can't think of a Big Ten program that has done that in recent memory. However, Iowa fired Todd Lickliter after three years and Rutgers did the same with Eddie Jordan and he was college star for them as well as a former NBA player and coach. You're expecting a lot here. Maybe you just need to be patient and wait it out for at least one more year. It won't kill you.
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It's not ourselves we're worried about: it's the program. At what point do you become the Israelites wandering in the wilderness for 40 years?
 




Bad Gopher said:
I think it might have been Ford Frick, the former MLB commissioner, who talked about how important recreations are to society. These are activities that make life so much more interesting. It's true, too, of the arts and all entertainment. Whether people want to admit it or not, this whole family of things IS important. Life would be pretty drab without them. I think we know how much fun and interest a competitive team brings to us. And who wants to pay four figures of money a year to watch such a bad product?

We're obviously at the "sour grapes" stage of this futility, where people start to pretend it doesn't matter.
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I'm certainly aware of the tremendous benefits provided by entertainers, including athletes, and I don't think I'm in the "sour grapes" stage of denial that you describe.

My current feeling is personal to me. I've been emotionally invested in horrible teams multiple times this century (Todd Lickliter's Iowa teams, Sam Hinkie's Sixers teams, Pitino's 2016 team and a couple of others, and now this one). With Lickliter, Hinkie, and Pitino's teams I was in a regular state of agitation. I've decided that I'm not going to do that this time. I'm going to enjoy what I can and treat the rest like a hapless comedy of errors. I'll wait it out. These things have a way of correcting themselves with time.

There's something else I've figured out recently. As bad as this Gophers BB team is, I will miss watching them when the season is over.
 

Bad Gopher said:
It's not ourselves we're worried about: it's the program. At what point do you become the Israelites wandering in the wilderness for 40 years?
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I don't know but likely we're either already there and one more year won't make a difference or we're not there and one more year won't doom our future indefinitely. The good thing about making bad choices is that decision makers typically don't make the same bad decision consecutively. This time they did but maybe the third time will be the charm.
 

cjbfbp said:
I'm certainly aware of the tremendous benefits provided by entertainers, including athletes, and I don't think I'm in the "sour grapes" stage of denial that you describe.

My current feeling is personal to me. I've been emotionally invested in horrible teams multiple times this century (Todd Lickliter's Iowa teams, Sam Hinkie's Sixers teams, Pitino's 2016 team and a couple of others, and now this one). With Lickliter, Hinkie, and Pitino's teams I was in a regular state of agitation. I've decided that I'm not going to do that this time. I'm going to enjoy what I can and treat the rest like a hapless comedy of errors. I'll wait it out. These things have a way of correcting themselves with time.

There's something else I've figured out recently. As bad as this Gophers BB team is, I will miss watching them when the season is over.
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You and me both. I don't know what's wrong with me, but I'm looking forward to Thursday and Sunday. Once the season is over, it's over, man.
 

roadrunner said:
Every year, the Twin Cities produces maybe a dozen D1 talents. All you need is 25% of them to be competitive. The program will never be any better than bottom half of the BigTen anyway with all the drawbacks mentioned (and I didn't even include the climate). So why not focus on promoting local talent?
Guys like McHale, Rychart, Williams, Winter, Hoffharber, Pryzbilla, Lynch, Petersen, Shasky, White, Oturu, Rickert, Mbakwe, Landsberger, Humphries, Jacobsen, Coleman, Winfield, Breuer, Battle, Garcia etc. would support that.
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I was talking about ranked D1 talents and my information about states was taken from an article for a five-year period ending in 2019. I would say a dozen ranked prospects would be a very good year for this state. 247 only lists 4 or 5 for 2023. Take a look at Amir Coffey's senior year. There was him and almost no one else of consequence.

Of course, there are always unranked HS players like Battle, Sutherlin, and that kid from Pine Island who became productive D1 players.
 

Bob_Loblaw said:
His point is awful, you should disagree with it. I understand why it is tempting to agree with it because it was only the fifth dumbest thing in that post, but it's still nonsense.

If we added the best PG in the country, we might win 9-10 games in the Big 10, but that is utter meaningless. Every single team on the planet is THAT player away from winning at least 9 games in the Big 10.
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Always the curmudgeon.
We have been closer to wins this year than your mind will admit. You're merely looking at win-loss when the better barometer is to view the learning curve and the improvement of our freshmen. They are playing better and improving. But, I am sure you'll continue to find every negative thing you can imagine
 

Gophers_4life said:
Unless a donor (group) steps up to take on the $8M buyout, it will not happen.

It's. Just. That. Simple.


That's all Coyle has to say to fans, quite frankly. "Don't email me unless you're ready to write an $8M check."
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Wouldn’t it be better if that donor ponied up the $8 million to pay players to come here?
 

If we had any brains...or discipline to do other things...we'd MOVE ON from being interested in 'college' basketball.
 

Is it realistic that the administration fires him? Yes. He's put up back to back last place finishes in the league and this years team, by some metrics, might be the worst Big Ten team in nearly 20 years. There is no excuse for that. On Ken Pom they are still worse than a St Thomas team that can't even offer a full allocation of scholarships. Further, Ben Johnson was supposedly hired because he was going to be this amazing recruiter in the state of Minnesota. Literally every player from Minnesota who had another Big Ten offer went elsewhere in his first two classes. The in state recruiting was supposed to be the "sure thing". I have seen elsewhere that somewhere around half the tickets purchased for each game are actually being scanned. People are making it very clear they have no interest in the product being put out.

Am I optomistic that the administration fires him? No. This has been absolute incompetence at every turn for a long time. Expecting the same people that thought they should even interview Ben Johnson for the head coaching position, much less hire him, to make a smart decision wouldn't be wise.
 

cjbfbp said:
I don't know but likely we're either already there and one more year won't make a difference or we're not there and one more year won't doom our future indefinitely. The good thing about making bad choices is that decision makers typically don't make the same bad decision consecutively. This time they did but maybe the third time will be the charm.
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The drunks to our east must laugh at us, that we don't know a good candidate from a poor one when it comes time to hire a coach. Meanwhile, some programs in lesser conferences hit on coaching hire after coaching hire...because they HAVE to: their coaches leave for high major programs regularly.
 



MennoSota said:
Always the curmudgeon.
We have been closer to wins this year than your mind will admit. You're merely looking at win-loss when the better barometer is to view the learning curve and the improvement of our freshmen. They are playing better and improving. But, I am sure you'll continue to find every negative thing you can imagine
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We really weren’t close to wins. Our point differential was awful (also reflected in our KenPom). I think you’re mistaken because things are so awful right now, you think 12-15 point games are close. It’s not me being a curmudgeon, it’s just reality. It’s the numbers.
 



GFBfan said:
Wouldn’t it be better if that donor ponied up the $8 million to pay players to come here?
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Honestly, and this is just my personal feeling:

- I don't want, or am at least more leery of, guys who "only" come to Minnesota for the money, first. Like mercenaries.

- I want the guys who want to be here, first. AND THEN, reward them with as much NIL money as we can.


Might be a silly or meaningless difference to you and most others, and that is fine.
 

EG#9 said:
Expecting the same people that thought they should even interview Ben Johnson for the head coaching position, much less hire him, to make a smart decision wouldn't be wise.
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This might be the most damning point of all.

Regardless if you believe it was mostly (solely!) Coyle who did this, or if you believe there was heavy influence by Gable or others near her ..... they're all still there. They're all the same people.
 

From what I've observed, the private and public sectors work primarily the same.

Getting adults, especially those in high profile leadership positions, to admit they made a mistake and take the appropriate corrective action happens far less than one would like to see.

In my professional experience, whenever a new "leader" came in and flopped early and often, rarely did it self-correct. Most of the time people knew after the first 3 to 6 months if we had hired a dud or a stud.

Anytime the language switches to "giving them the benefit of the doubt", it is really just code for "we fucked up but we don't want to admit it and hope like hell it magically gets better".

It drags out for about 2 to 3 years before the person is terminated or knows to leave on their own because they are going to get terminated.

I will be glad to eat my words and be forced to offer an apology if by some miracle this gets turned around. I really hope Coach Johnson can pull it off. The evidence in my opinion just isn't there to support such a possibility.
 

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