Iowa coach Fran tossed last night in Madison

[Dunceswithwolves]

I hadn't seen that before so it makes me think twice...

I don't think you know the meaning of "think twice." It doesn't mean, faced with contrary evidence, that you pause for 2 seconds and say the same thing again.

 

[golfing18now]

That UW has such an amazing home record compared to their record as a whole over many of the past years is the proxy data that you are avoiding. No way UW has such an amazing home record based solely on deserved merit - they are getting a ton of assistance by the referees (and on the road in the B1G, for that matter as well). The refs let UW own them, whatever entity is behind it. The same calls are simply not called on both ends of the court when UW plays a B1G game, home or away. It's obvious.

OR....maybe just maybe they have an elite coach that has figured out a way to implement an effective system (love it or hate it), recruits to that system very effectively, establishes a winning culture, has a fan base that creates a tough environment to win in, and subsequently wins at a high level.

Attributing wins and losses to "referee bias" sounds like envy and jealousy to me. I just don't buy it. As fans we remember the calls that go against us more than the ones that don't. Every game has calls that can go either way and do. There is not secret referee "entity" that decides the pecking order of teams and what calls should go their way.

 

[Bad Gopher]

OR....maybe just maybe they have an elite coach that has figured out a way to implement an effective system (love it or hate it), recruits to that system very effectively, establishes a winning culture, has a fan base that creates a tough environment to win in, and subsequently wins at a high level.

Attributing wins and losses to "referee bias" sounds like envy and jealousy to me. I just don't buy it. As fans we remember the calls that go against us more than the ones that don't. Every game has calls that can go either way and do. There is not secret referee "entity" that decides the pecking order of teams and what calls should go their way.

I suppose, if it comforts people to try and think this way. Statistical analysis has been done with basketball officiating calls, and there are certainly human foibles and frailties in play. Basketball's big flaw - besides the need for a shot clock - is that basically every foul call is a judgment call to a degree. No other sport is so fickle; maybe hockey, I guess.

What I think is going on is that Bo is indeed a good coach and is recognized as such, including by officials. He's basically the effective reincarnation of Bob Knight in that regard. He doesn't just argue, but he argues convincingly and with technical and moral authority. And let's be honest, there is a degree of intimidation with these guys and in their home buildings, and crowd pleasing as well.

 

[golfing18now]

I suppose, if it comforts people to try and think this way. Statistical analysis has been done with basketball officiating calls, and there are certainly human foibles and frailties in play. Basketball's big flaw - besides the need for a shot clock - is that basically every foul call is a judgment call to a degree. No other sport is so fickle; maybe hockey, I guess.

What I think is going on is that Bo is indeed a good coach and is recognized as such, including by officials. He's basically the effective reincarnation of Bob Knight in that regard. He doesn't just argue, but he argues convincingly and with technical and moral authority. And let's be honest, there is a degree of intimidation with these guys and in their home buildings, and crowd pleasing as well.

I would probably acknowledge that it could possibly move the needle slightly, but that wouldn't be unique to Wisconsin/Ohio State/Indiana as the previous poster implied. He/she more or less suggested these games to a large degree are not determined on the court. While we have had referees like this is the past (Tim Donaghy), I'm not buying there is a concerted effort to create inequities like this.

I have no love for the Wisconsin basketball program but I'm at least willing to tip my hat to what they have accomplished under the Bo Ryan era. Disdain for your biggest rivals shouldn't cloud your evaluation of their accomplishments to the point where you cite "referee bias" as being a significant factor in a program's success.

 

[justthefacts]

Wisconsin is routinely among the bottom 1/3 of the country in terms of opponents' turnover percentage. Could it be that their lack of fouling is attributable to their less aggressive defensive style?

I also just took a quick look and Wisconsin is routinely in the bottom 1/3 of the country in terms of % of points that come at the FT line. So whatever juju Bo is using on the refs he only seems to be using on their defensive end. He's so crafty.

 

[otisflowers]

It's what the experienced basketball watcher/fan/player sees. We see it, it's not hard to believe it. The rest of the B1G outside of UW fans agrees with this sentiment. The only other biases that seem to come close are the pro-OSU and especially pro-Indiana ref biases.

You made a decent point with the stats. I hadn't seen that before so it makes me think twice, but I'm sure my eyes don't deceive me. Like another poster said, it's the TIMING of the calls. Like say the Gophers have a 10-point lead in the second half at Kohl Center, suddenly it's ticky-tack this, ticky-tack that, send UW's best FT shooter to the line if someone breathes on him for the better part of an important 5-to-10 minute stretch, while Wisconsin is allowed to murder the opponent. The entire momentum changes on the extremely biased, if perhaps temporary, reffing, and UW gets out of the tank.

That UW has such an amazing home record compared to their record as a whole over many of the past years is the proxy data that you are avoiding. No way UW has such an amazing home record based solely on deserved merit - they are getting a ton of assistance by the referees (and on the road in the B1G, for that matter as well). The refs let UW own them, whatever entity is behind it. The same calls are simply not called on both ends of the court when UW plays a B1G game, home or away. It's obvious.

fwiw, wisconsin also has the best road record in the big ten the last 13 years also. Wisconsin also has the best overall record over 13 years. why is that? must be the refs.

 

[Bad Gopher]

I would probably acknowledge that it could possibly move the needle slightly, but that wouldn't be unique to Wisconsin/Ohio State/Indiana as the previous poster implied. He/she more or less suggested these games to a large degree are not determined on the court. While we have had referees like this is the past (Tim Donaghy), I'm not buying there is a concerted effort to create inequities like this.

I have no love for the Wisconsin basketball program but I'm at least willing to tip my hat to what they have accomplished under the Bo Ryan era. Disdain for your biggest rivals shouldn't cloud your evaluation of their accomplishments to the point where you cite "referee bias" as being a significant factor in a program's success.

Yes, the crowd pleasing is more universal.

Sorry, but the established coaches and programs get perks. Bo deserves credit for getting himself and his program established quickly, but like others have said, we know what we see. Izzo is another example. There are trips to East Lansing where the Gophers are simply not allowed to compete. MSU is allowed to play EXTREMELY physical - to the point of breaking Sampson's nose without a foul being called - yet the opposition isn't allowed that same approach. Why waste the time to even make the trip? And it's not just at home. You go back and watch MSU vs Iowa in the BTT last year and tell me that Michigan State didn't simply turn it into a rugby game at the end in desperation.

 

[dpodoll68]

Yes, the crowd pleasing is more universal.

Sorry, but the established coaches and programs get perks. Bo deserves credit for getting himself and his program established quickly, but like others have said, we know what we see. Izzo is another example. There are trips to East Lansing where the Gophers are simply not allowed to compete. MSU is allowed to play EXTREMELY physical - to the point of breaking Sampson's nose without a foul being called - yet the opposition isn't allowed that same approach. Why waste the time to even make the trip? And it's not just at home. You go back and watch MSU vs Iowa in the BTT last year and tell me that Michigan State didn't simply turn it into a rugby game at the end in desperation.

Sorry for belaboring the point, but your martyr complex seems to be flaring up today.

 

[Bad Gopher]

Sorry for belaboring the point, but your martyr complex seems to be flaring up today.

As long as you're sorry...

 

[bemidjigopher]

OR....maybe just maybe they have an elite coach that has figured out a way to implement an effective system (love it or hate it), recruits to that system very effectively, establishes a winning culture, has a fan base that creates a tough environment to win in, and subsequently wins at a high level.

Attributing wins and losses to "referee bias" sounds like envy and jealousy to me. I just don't buy it. As fans we remember the calls that go against us more than the ones that don't. Every game has calls that can go either way and do. There is not secret referee "entity" that decides the pecking order of teams and what calls should go their way.

Bo Ryan's the Ron Gardenhire of college hoops, can't win the big game in the tourney, on a neutral court, ironically it's his worse teams that have gone the farthest and his best teams such as 07 and 11 that disappoint

 

[golfing18now]

Yes, the crowd pleasing is more universal.

Sorry, but the established coaches and programs get perks. Bo deserves credit for getting himself and his program established quickly, but like others have said, we know what we see. Izzo is another example. There are trips to East Lansing where the Gophers are simply not allowed to compete. MSU is allowed to play EXTREMELY physical - to the point of breaking Sampson's nose without a foul being called - yet the opposition isn't allowed that same approach. Why waste the time to even make the trip? And it's not just at home. You go back and watch MSU vs Iowa in the BTT last year and tell me that Michigan State didn't simply turn it into a rugby game at the end in desperation.

Then why bother watching sports if the outcome is already predetermined by some sort of referee task force and the less established team is "not allowed to compete"? I have a hard time believing that I'm watching professional wrestling when I turn on a Gophers game. I think "we know what we see" from a completely biased perspective, as a fan of one of the competing teams. Are calls missed every game? Of course. Are calls at times due to the home crowd? Probably. But to call it a more concerted effort than that trivializes the competition, in my mind.

 

[golfing18now]

Bo Ryan's the Ron Gardenhire of college hoops, can't win the big game in the tourney, on a neutral court, ironically it's his worse teams that have gone the farthest and his best teams such as 07 and 11 that disappoint

His success in the tournament is a different issue, for sure. But I'd take a perennial top four finish in the conference right now if you offered.

 

[wisbadger303]

It's what the experienced basketball watcher/fan/player sees. We see it, it's not hard to believe it. The rest of the B1G outside of UW fans agrees with this sentiment. The only other biases that seem to come close are the pro-OSU and especially pro-Indiana ref biases.

You made a decent point with the stats. I hadn't seen that before so it makes me think twice, but I'm sure my eyes don't deceive me. Like another poster said, it's the TIMING of the calls. Like say the Gophers have a 10-point lead in the second half at Kohl Center, suddenly it's ticky-tack this, ticky-tack that, send UW's best FT shooter to the line if someone breathes on him for the better part of an important 5-to-10 minute stretch, while Wisconsin is allowed to murder the opponent. The entire momentum changes on the extremely biased, if perhaps temporary, reffing, and UW gets out of the tank.

That UW has such an amazing home record compared to their record as a whole over many of the past years is the proxy data that you are avoiding. No way UW has such an amazing home record based solely on deserved merit - they are getting a ton of assistance by the referees (and on the road in the B1G, for that matter as well). The refs let UW own them, whatever entity is behind it. The same calls are simply not called on both ends of the court when UW plays a B1G game, home or away. It's obvious.

Do you know how ridiculous your last paragraph is? Are we really watching professional wrestling where everything is already predetermined? All of the refs are in a conspiracy to give UW an edge, home or away? BTW, do you believe that we landed on the moon?

 

[Bad Gopher]

Then why bother watching sports if the outcome is already predetermined by some sort of referee task force and the less established team is "not allowed to compete"?

That option never occurred to me. Muchas gracias!

 

[stocker08]

Fran deserved the technical and the suspension. You never charge a referee like that, even if they are making crap calls (they were). Even last nights game against Illinois......Wisconsin was getting some fairly outrageous calls as they were up by 20+. Not saying that would have had ANY outcome on the game.

 

[Section201]

Fran deserved the technical and the suspension. You never charge a referee like that, even if they are making crap calls (they were). Even last nights game against Illinois......Wisconsin was getting some fairly outrageous calls as they were up by 20+. Not saying that would have had ANY outcome on the game.

I agree. Fran was a moron and helped his team lose. Regarding the other subplot of this thread I have to say in a game between Duke and Wisconsin, I root for Duke. I will give Bo his due though. He is very successful PITB.