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gopherbadgerman said:
I was there and I agree. Gophers had a tough time stopping Taylor and had a bad punt decision.
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The only thing the blizzard affected was the ability to get home after the game. Was just an absolute mess.
 


MZBKA1 said:
The fact that Indiana's coach has done so well in Indiana raises the question: Why can't Fleck do that here?
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I think it actually raises a different (and better) question.

Had today's rules been in place in 2017 when the red hot coaching prospect Fleck was hired here, what would he have been able to assemble for Year Zero?

Almost certainly, he would have brought 15-20+ players with him from the undefeated Western Michigan team that just played in the Cotton Bowl, just as Cignetti did this year at Indiana with his James Madison guys. That is huge. To have a bunch of guys who know the culture and the system would have instantly made them better. A few of those WMU guys that stayed there because they weren't going to sit out a year ended up getting drafted, so would have played well here, too.

Almost certainly, he would have brought in a high major quarterback transfer to step in and start and play right away. Instead, he had to talk walk-on Connor Rhoda out of retirement and somehow trust Demry Croft.

He definitely would have upgraded the offensive line through the portal, as well the defensive line.

And, 2017 was a fairly favorable schedule, avoiding Ohio State and Penn State from the Big Ten East.

No idea how it would have played out, but fair to say better than the 5-7 it was.

And, if it played out much better, how would that have impacted early recruiting and early growth as a program, etc.?
 

MZBKA1 said:
Then he lost two trophy games, missed the conference championship, and it's been nothing but downhill since then.
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You're getting a bit ahead of yourself. My point was that we've been exactly where Indiana is right now, except we had a win against a Top 5 team. Get back to me if they beat the Buckeyes and keep their winning ways up for more than 3/4 of a season.
 

for some reason, looked at the thread title and this old song popped into my head.

Indiana wants me
Lord, I can't go back there
Indiana wants me
Lord, I can't go back there
I wish I had you
To talk to

on a more serious note, as others have pointed out, what Cignetti is doing shows what is possible with the right coach in the right situation at the right time.

so, could this be done at MN? I would say "Yes" - but it's a situation where all of the pieces have to fall into place, and it may not be as easy to duplicate.

as long as Fleck holds onto the concept of a "developmental program," I think it would make it more difficult to pull off what Cignetti has done. which is not to say that Fleck's approach can't work. it's simply to say that Fleck's approach seems to run counter to what Indiana is pulling off - a complete turn-around in one year.

or - more bluntly - saying "Bleep it - we are not going to build around HS recruits - we are going 100% team-building through the portal, and if we land the right players, we can be good immediately."

but no matter the approach, you need the right coach to pull it off.
 



tjgopher said:
I think it actually raises a different (and better) question.

Had today's rules been in place in 2017 when the red hot coaching prospect Fleck was hired here, what would he have been able to assemble for Year Zero?

Almost certainly, he would have brought 15-20+ players with him from the undefeated Western Michigan team that just played in the Cotton Bowl, just as Cignetti did this year at Indiana with his James Madison guys. That is huge. To have a bunch of guys who know the culture and the system would have instantly made them better. A few of those WMU guys that stayed there because they weren't going to sit out a year ended up getting drafted, so would have played well here, too.

Almost certainly, he would have brought in a high major quarterback transfer to step in and start and play right away. Instead, he had to talk walk-on Connor Rhoda out of retirement and somehow trust Demry Croft.

He definitely would have upgraded the offensive line through the portal, as well the defensive line.

And, 2017 was a fairly favorable schedule, avoiding Ohio State and Penn State from the Big Ten East.

No idea how it would have played out, but fair to say better than the 5-7 it was.

And, if it played out much better, how would that have impacted early recruiting and early growth as a program, etc.?
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That is a really interesting question as it was a completely different world in 2017 than it is in 2024 in terms of roster construction and player movement.

I agree 1000% that we would not have been subjected to the Croft/Rhoda debacle at QB and he almost certainly would have brought a number of guys from that Western Michigan team with him as well to get a jump start on things here.

Will never know for sure how he would have handled it (unless he leaves in the near future and we see how he builds at the new place)....but it would be interesting to know how Fleck would have built things under the current crazy atmosphere of college athletics.

So weird to be talking about 2017 like it was a lifetime ago when it really wasn't that long ago.
 

A lot of the responses in this thread remind me of the guy that every golf club has. Every Saturday comes into the bar and talks about how he could or should have shot 72 but got a bad bounce, or ended up up behind the lone tree, putts lipped out etc. A different excuse every week. Never a sincere congratulations for the guy that actually did shoot 72, just a never ending list of reasons and excuses why he shot a 80.
 

WoodburyTim said:
A lot of the responses in this thread remind me of the guy that every golf club has. Every Saturday comes into the bar and talks about how he could or should have shot 72 but got a bad bounce, or ended up up behind the lone tree, putts lipped out etc. A different excuse every week. Never a sincere congratulations for the guy that actually did shoot 72, just a never ending list of reasons and excuses why he shot a 80.
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Hell, I always bragged the few times I actually shot in the 80's.
 



WoodburyTim said:
A lot of the responses in this thread remind me of the guy that every golf club has. Every Saturday comes into the bar and talks about how he could or should have shot 72 but got a bad bounce, or ended up up behind the lone tree, putts lipped out etc. A different excuse every week. Never a sincere congratulations for the guy that actually did shoot 72, just a never ending list of reasons and excuses why he shot a 80.
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Indiana is having a hell of a year....they are beating the teams on their schedule and up till this past weekend they have been beating teams convincingly.

They have also played an extremely soft schedule, haven't faced a single team in the Big Ten with a winning conference record and their best wins have come against teams that are sitting right around .500 on the season (Michigan, Western Michigan, Washington, Nebraska).

They have a chance to prove they belong with the best of the best in 2 weeks against Ohio State in Columbus. Win or lose, if they look like they belong on the field with Ohio State on the 26th it will be proof that Indiana should be counted among the best in the country this year and truly belongs in the playoff field.
 

swede2 said:
I'd take Illinois. If 2019 is as good as it gets? That's easy too.
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I disagree with that. Illinois has had 19 losing seasons since 2000
They have had 11 seasons with 4 or fewer wins

I wish the gophers had a big ten title. But for entertainment value I am not sure 2 good seasons outweighs the 19 bad ones.

For comparison, the gophers have had 10 losing seasons and 5 seasons with 4 or fewer wins.



But I understand why you would say that. To me the gophers are more about entertainment then winning a championship
 

Pompous Elitist said:
C’mon.

No.
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Illinois has had 11 seasons with 4 or fewer wins since 2000.
19 losing seasons.

From an entertainment standpoint that would be a brutal 25 years to watch even with those two seasons.
I certainly understand the other position.
 

Some guy said:
I disagree with that. Illinois has had 19 losing seasons since 2000
They have had 11 seasons with 4 or fewer wins

I wish the gophers had a big ten title. But for entertainment value I am not sure 2 good seasons outweighs the 19 bad ones.

For comparison, the gophers have had 10 losing seasons and 5 seasons with 4 or fewer wins.



But I understand why you would say that. To me the gophers are more about entertainment then winning a championship
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It is a tough choice. If the resurgence (not just wins but also renewed fan interest) under Bielema had not happened, I would say Gophers without a doubt.
 



Ope3 said:
It is a tough choice. If the resurgence (not just wins but also renewed fan interest) under Bielema had not happened, I would say Gophers without a doubt.
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Agree but even with beilema their record has been:
5-7
8-5
5-7
6-3

And as bad as the gophers gave the divisions away in 2021 and 2022…Illinois gave it away worse in 2022 by losing to 4-8 Indiana, 5-7 Michigan state, and the same Purdue team the gophers lost to
 

It might be my age but to me Illinois in 2007 going 9-3 but getting a lucky rose bowl birth because of oddities in the BCS schedule doesn’t mean that much more to me than 2003, 2014, 2016, 2021, 2022.

So really the big separator is the 2001 big ten title for me.
Would I take this trade;


Gophers win 2025 big ten title but lose the sugar bowl in the first round playoff game in exchange for 19 losing seasons between 2026 and 2050?
I am not sure if I take that trade or not. Next year would be fun as hell though.

An odd thing about 2001 Illinois. Only 41k showed up to see them clinch the big ten in their final home game. Their stadium was a 65% capacity. They were 1-1 against teams with big ten winning records.
Another oddity, Ron turner has the same number of outright big ten titles in his career as Barry Alvarez and hayden fry.
has more than Kirk Ferentz. And was fired 3 years after the title.
 
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The highs are what matter, people that remember talk about the ‘87 and ‘91 twins not the years of mediocrity.
 

Some guy said:
Agree but even with beilema their record has been:
5-7
8-5
5-7
6-3

And as bad as the gophers gave the divisions away in 2021 and 2022…Illinois gave it away worse in 2022 by losing to 4-8 Indiana, 5-7 Michigan state, and the same Purdue team the gophers lost to
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Agree, just saying without the past 4 years even modest success (and reigniting the fanbase) it's a no doubter in favor of the Gophers.

Illinois did something this year that I am envious of, they beat the Wolverines on their home turf. I've had season tickets as far back as 1986 (with a 6 year gap in the mid 90s), and never have gotten to experience a win in person. I think the only one I have missed is when Tom Brady was the QB in 1998.

Just 1 win, over a subpar Michigan by their standards this season, but still. Gophers could not even beat Rich Rod at the HHH Dome.
 


Ope3 said:
Agree, just saying without the past 4 years even modest success (and reigniting the fanbase) it's a no doubter in favor of the Gophers.

Illinois did something this year that I am envious of, they beat the Wolverines on their home turf. I've had season tickets as far back as 1986 (with a 6 year gap in the mid 90s), and never have gotten to experience a win in person. I think the only one I have missed is when Tom Brady was the QB in 1998.

Just 1 win, over a subpar Michigan by their standards this season, but still. Gophers could not even beat Rich Rod at the HHH Dome.
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Doesn’t matter who the coach was this year. Rhe gophers weren’t going to beat Michigan at home this year. 😂


What’s crazy is, if you are 50 the gophers are only going to host Michigan like 5-6 more time in your life expectancy.
 

Pompous Elitist said:
The highs are what matter, people that remember talk about the ‘87 and ‘91 twins not the years of mediocrity.
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But those highs only carry you for so long. 87 and 91 were awesome but they were also over 30 and quickly approaching 40 years ago.
 

Some guy said:
Doesn’t matter who the coach was this year. Rhe gophers weren’t going to beat Michigan at home this year. 😂


What’s crazy is, if you are 50 the gophers are only going to host Michigan like 5-6 more time in your life expectancy.
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Touchée.

Next time in MPLS is 2026. Hopefully can ease the demons from 1987, 2003, 2008 & 2015. Yikes.

Indiana did it this year too.
 

MNVCGUY said:
But those highs only carry you for so long. 87 and 91 were awesome but they were also over 30 and quickly approaching 40 years ago.
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But, they were something.

MN sports fans have to be one of the most cursed groups in all of history, in the modern era.
 


Pompous Elitist said:
MN sports fans have to be one of the most cursed groups in all of history, in the modern era.
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At least in terms of the major sports this definitely seems true.....solid teams that can never seem to get over the hump.
 

Some guy said:
I disagree with that. Illinois has had 19 losing seasons since 2000
They have had 11 seasons with 4 or fewer wins

I wish the gophers had a big ten title. But for entertainment value I am not sure 2 good seasons outweighs the 19 bad ones.

For comparison, the gophers have had 10 losing seasons and 5 seasons with 4 or fewer wins.



But I understand why you would say that. To me the gophers are more about entertainment then winning a championship
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For me it comes down to the fact that Fleck's 8 or 9 win teams are just as forgettable and irrelevant as Brewster's or Wacker's all time awful teams. If I still cared one bit about the Twins, I wouldn't trade the '87 or '91 teams for 25 or 30 years of above .500 teams with regular playoff appearances but no WS championships. I'd gladly have the Vikings trade all of the Viking's interim playoff appearances for Super Bowl wins in 98 and 2009. Give me meaningful games, even if very infrequently, rather than decades and lifetimes of games that don't matter.
 

swede2 said:
For me it comes down to the fact that Fleck's 8 or 9 win teams are just as forgettable and irrelevant as Brewster's or Wacker's all time awful teams.
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I guess I disagree with this. If you didn’t enjoy 2021 and 2022 significantly more than 2007 and 2010 then I don’t know what to tell you. I would recommend becoming an Ohio state fan.
swede2 said:
If I still cared one bit about the Twins, I wouldn't trade the '87 or '91 teams for 25 or 30 years of above .500 teams with regular playoff appearances but no WS championships.
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Maybe. But the fact you don’t care anymore says something else interesting. Like if you would rather have Illinois’ last 25 years but you probably would’ve quit following by now if you were an Illinois fan.
swede2 said:
I'd gladly have the Vikings trade all of the Viking's interim playoff appearances for Super Bowl wins in 98 and 2009. Give me meaningful games, even if very infrequently, rather than decades and lifetimes of games that don't matter.
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The gophers have played more games that matter than Illinois in the past 25 years. Illinois just happened to beat Michigan in 2001

Whereas the gophers lost to Michigan in 2003
Lost to Wisconsin in 1999, 2014, 2016, and 2019
Lost to Iowa in 2019
Lost to Purdue in 2021

Etc


I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying. I disagree with your conclusion you’d rather have Illinois last 25 years. Everything you say in your post says that apart from one game vs Michigan in 2001, you’d rather have the gophers’ success. The team that looks more like Illinois is the twins, and you stopped following them. The team that looks most like the gophers is the Vikings and you still follow them
 

Ohio St is going to slap the smugness off cig’s face.

Then I hope they make the Championship game and get embarrassed once again.

Sure, let them into the playoff to finish the humiliation.

I want cig to stay so he has to deal with a team losing a ton from both lines, and a lot of his HR hitters. And the schedule includes road games at iowa, at Oregon, at Penn St.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Indiana is having a hell of a year....they are beating the teams on their schedule and up till this past weekend they have been beating teams convincingly.

They have also played an extremely soft schedule, haven't faced a single team in the Big Ten with a winning conference record and their best wins have come against teams that are sitting right around .500 on the season (Michigan, Western Michigan, Washington, Nebraska).

They have a chance to prove they belong with the best of the best in 2 weeks against Ohio State in Columbus. Win or lose, if they look like they belong on the field with Ohio State on the 26th it will be proof that Indiana should be counted among the best in the country this year and truly belongs in the playoff field.
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Sort of my point though. I didn’t see any posts from you or any of the others here picking apart our schedule during the 4 game win streak. Mostly just posts about how close we are to the Big10 championship and how PJ has proven he is great. Our conference opponents are 18-28 in the Big 10 with Iowa being the lone above .500 team at 4-3. That isn’t to say that I think this has been an undeserving year for the Gophers, just that it is a matter of perspective.
 

tjgopher said:
I think it actually raises a different (and better) question.

Had today's rules been in place in 2017 when the red hot coaching prospect Fleck was hired here, what would he have been able to assemble for Year Zero?

Almost certainly, he would have brought 15-20+ players with him from the undefeated Western Michigan team that just played in the Cotton Bowl, just as Cignetti did this year at Indiana with his James Madison guys. That is huge. To have a bunch of guys who know the culture and the system would have instantly made them better. A few of those WMU guys that stayed there because they weren't going to sit out a year ended up getting drafted, so would have played well here, too.

Almost certainly, he would have brought in a high major quarterback transfer to step in and start and play right away. Instead, he had to talk walk-on Connor Rhoda out of retirement and somehow trust Demry Croft.

He definitely would have upgraded the offensive line through the portal, as well the defensive line.

And, 2017 was a fairly favorable schedule, avoiding Ohio State and Penn State from the Big Ten East.

No idea how it would have played out, but fair to say better than the 5-7 it was.

And, if it played out much better, how would that have impacted early recruiting and early growth as a program, etc.?
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When PJ got here our OL room was pretty good.
 

Some guy said:
I guess I disagree with this. If you didn’t enjoy 2021 and 2022 significantly more than 2007 and 2010 then I don’t know what to tell you. I would recommend becoming an Ohio state fan.

Maybe. But the fact you don’t care anymore says something else interesting. Like if you would rather have Illinois’ last 25 years but you probably would’ve quit following by now if you were an Illinois fan.

The gophers have played more games that matter than Illinois in the past 25 years. Illinois just happened to beat Michigan in 2001

Whereas the gophers lost to Michigan in 2003
Lost to Wisconsin in 1999, 2014, 2016, and 2019
Lost to Iowa in 2019
Lost to Purdue in 2021

Etc


I don’t disagree with most of what you’re saying. I disagree with your conclusion you’d rather have Illinois last 25 years. Everything you say in your post says that apart from one game vs Michigan in 2001, you’d rather have the gophers’ success. The team that looks more like Illinois is the twins, and you stopped following them. The team that looks most like the gophers is the Vikings and you still follow them
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I stopped following the Twins because I don't care for baseball anymore. Otherwise, fair points.
 

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