"If you look at Tubby Smith, there is absolutely no reason that he should've been fired." Interview w/ Kendal Shell

[EasyThere Pilgrim]

The new standard is the wingspan of your tallest recruit.

Tubby went 5 or 6 years without signing a single Top-150 player. His last 2 classes at MN were Wally Ellenson, Charles Buggs, Alvin Ellis, & Alex Foster.

Yet many on here say that's better than Evans & Christie.

 

[EasyThere Pilgrim]

He had a couple of bad years but Tubby's lousy recruits supplemented by a few of Pitino's key transfers enabled Pitino to win 25 games and an NIT championship in his first season.

Tubby's last 2 recruiting classes were the worst in Gophers history. Pitino inherited a team with no freshmen or sophomores on it. That's why he had such a terrible 3rd season.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Tubby went 5 or 6 years without signing a single Top-150 player. His last 2 classes at MN were Wally Ellenson, Charles Buggs, Alvin Ellis, & Alex Foster.

Yet many on here say that's better than Evans & Christie.

At Minnesota?

We signed Alvin Ellis and Alex Foster?

 

[Ope3]

I don't know how anyone could say that (well I do; they don't evaluate the overall record). Tubby never had a losing season in 6 years and had 5 post-season appearances in 6 years. Pitino had four outright losing seasons and only 3 postseason appearances in 8 years. Pitino had one year where the Big Ten conference record was better than any of Tubby's but he also had perhaps the worst season in the university's history (although it might be equaled this year).

To me, 3 NCAA berths vs 2 is pretty similar given the time frame. Pitino had a near miss in 2014 as well.

Sure, Tubby never had an overall losing record but in terms of the Big 10 he never finished above .500 and never got a bye into the Quarters. Pitino did that, at least once.

Tubby's worst 2 seasons he was 6-12 which were not as bad as 2 Pitinos worst years, but still lousy.

Both got to the Big 10 semis at least twice, with Tubby making it to the Finals once. Edge Tubby on that one.

 

[cjbfbp]

To me, 3 NCAA berths vs 2 is pretty similar given the time frame. Pitino had a near miss in 2014 as well.

Sure, Tubby never had an overall losing record but in terms of the Big 10 he never finished above .500 and never got a bye into the Quarters. Pitino did that, at least once.

Tubby's worst 2 seasons he was 6-12 which were not as bad as 2 Pitinos worst years, but still lousy.

Both got to the Big 10 semis at least twice, with Tubby making it to the Finals once. Edge Tubby on that one.

All games matter. Not just the Big Ten games. To suggest otherwise is absurd. I suspect that you're not indifferent to whether we win or lose when you're watching a non conference game.

 

[EasyThere Pilgrim]

At Minnesota?

We signed Alvin Ellis and Alex Foster?

Tubby went his last few years here and then a few years at his next stop without any Top-150 recruits.

His current verbal commits here were Ellis & Foster when he was fired.

Can you imagine trotting out a lineup of Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, & Buggs ???

 

[cjbfbp]

Tubby went 5 or 6 years without signing a single Top-150 player. His last 2 classes at MN were Wally Ellenson, Charles Buggs, Alvin Ellis, & Alex Foster.

Yet many on here say that's better than Evans & Christie.

Who says that you clown? Give examples please or stop blowing wind.

As to your first claim, I don't have the data for Top 150 players during that era at my fingertips but I do have RSCI consensus top 100 from that time. Sampson was #64 and Devoe Joseph was #98 for 2008, Rodney Williams was #46 in 2009, Mbakwe was #91 in 2007. Tubby was only here for 6 years so your claim is easily disproven. I don't know how the Hollins boys were rated but they certainly were capable players. He also recruited the very highly rated Royce White, of course, but it's not his fault he turned out to be a head case. Everyone except Hoiberg (for one year) failed with him.

Try to remember that not everyone who posts here is a lazy and sloppy blowhard so if you insist on behaving that way, some will call out your rubbish.

 

[cjbfbp]

Tubby went his last few years here and then a few years at his next stop without any Top-150 recruits.

So Tubby's recruiting evaluation here includes his recruiting record in the early years of his next job too? What a schmuck!

 

[bc2211]

Who says that you clown? Give examples please or stop blowing wind.

As to your first claim, I don't have the data for Top 150 players during that era at my fingertips but I do have RSCI consensus top 100 from that time. Sampson was #64 and Devoe Joseph was #98 for 2008, Rodney Williams was #46 in 2009, Mbakwe was #91 in 2007. Tubby was only here for 6 years so your claim is easily disproven. I don't know how the Hollins boys were rated but they certainly were capable players. He also recruited the very highly rated Royce White, of course, but it's not his fault he turned out to be a head case. Everyone except Hoiberg (for one year) failed with him.

Try to remember that not everyone who posts here is a lazy and sloppy blowhard so if you insist on behaving that way, some will call out your rubbish.

And Andre hollins and joe Coleman were 101 and 109 respectively on 247

 

[Ope3]

All games matter. Not just the Big Ten games. To suggest otherwise is absurd. I suspect that you're not indifferent to whether we win or lose when you're watching a non conference game.

Nowhere did I say that. I want the Gophers to win non-conference games.

If such victories do not result in an NCAA berth, then their overall importance to me is extremely diminished.

Also Tubby never had to play a 20 game Big 10 schedule, which assured him of 2 more non-conference games (potentially both at Home), and likely against inferior opponents.

Also in terms of time I did not research the non-conference schedule in depth.

- How many were against cupcakes?
- How many were against other P6 teams?
- How many were against teams that otherwise made the NCAA or at least NIT?
- What exempt tournament where they in and what was the field?
- How many were NIT wins after the NCAA berth decided?
- How many were at the Barn, neutral site, on the road?

In small sample sizes, that can have a significant impact on Overall record.

The Big 10 record is more consistent, though as it's grown and with imbalanced schedules can be more skewed.

 

[EasyThere Pilgrim]

Who says that you clown? Give examples please or stop blowing wind.

As to your first claim, I don't have the data for Top 150 players during that era at my fingertips but I do have RSCI consensus top 100 from that time. Sampson was #64 and Devoe Joseph was #98 for 2008, Rodney Williams was #46 in 2009, Mbakwe was #91 in 2007. Tubby was only here for 6 years so your claim is easily disproven. I don't know how the Hollins boys were rated but they certainly were capable players. He also recruited the very highly rated Royce White, of course, but it's not his fault he turned out to be a head case. Everyone except Hoiberg (for one year) failed with him.

Try to remember that not everyone who posts here is a lazy and sloppy blowhard so if you insist on behaving that way, some will call out your rubbish.

Tubby started off great. I've said many times that we'd have been the National Championship favorites if we didn't kick-out White & Mbakwe.

It's later on when Tubby's recruiting completely dried up. At that point, he absolutely 100% had to go.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Tubby went his last few years here and then a few years at his next stop without any Top-150 recruits.

His current verbal commits here were Ellis & Foster when he was fired.

Can you imagine trotting out a lineup of Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, & Buggs ???

He went his last two years, not 5 or 6 years. The 2011 class was Andre Hollins and Austin Hollins - both top 150 recruits.

I can imagine trotting out a lineup of Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, and Buggs (I'd assume we would allow him to play 5 people). That team would be putrid, it'd be like 1-9 in the Big 10.

 

[GopherPlaya]

Tubby started off great. I've said many times that we'd have been the National Championship favorites if we didn't kick-out White & Mbakwe.

It's later on when Tubby's recruiting completely dried up. At that point, he absolutely 100% had to go.

The Royce & Trevor thing, combined with Devoe failing drug tests, made Tubby recruit more conservatively. He also had health concerns during the last couple of seasons here.

 

[EasyThere Pilgrim]

He went his last two years, not 5 or 6 years. The 2011 class was Andre Hollins and Austin Hollins - both top 150 recruits.

I can imagine trotting out a lineup of Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, and Buggs (I'd assume we would allow him to play 5 people). That team would be putrid, it'd be like 1-9 in the Big 10.

Andre was top-150 but Austin wasn't.

The point is...Tubby couldn't recruit anymore. Here, or at his next stop.

But have it your way. If you think Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, & Buggs are as good as Ben's recruits...well, let me just say that this board is really something LOL.

 

[Bob_Loblaw]

Andre was top-150 but Austin wasn't.

The point is...Tubby couldn't recruit anymore. Here, or at his next stop.

But have it your way. If you think Ellis, Foster, Ellenson, & Buggs are as good as Ben's recruits...well, let me just say that this board is really something LOL.

Not Austin Hollins, sorry, Joe Coleman. He was a top 150 and in the same class as Andre.

I wasn't defending moving on from Tubby. I just said that Tubby recruited two top 150 players a year and a half before he was canned. He also recruited numerous top 150 players in his last 5 or 6 years. I was poking at your incorrect statement.

I never said that Ellis, Foster, Ellenson and Buggs are as good as Ben's recruits. LOL. Where did I say that? I said they'd be putrid, like 1-9 in the Big 10 this year.

 

[cjbfbp]

Not Austin Hollins, sorry, Joe Coleman. He was a top 150 and in the same class as Andre.

I wasn't defending moving on from Tubby. I just said that Tubby recruited two top 150 players a year and a half before he was canned. He also recruited numerous top 150 players in his last 5 or 6 years. I was poking at your incorrect statement.

I never said that Ellis, Foster, Ellenson and Buggs are as good as Ben's recruits. LOL. Where did I say that? I said they'd be putrid, like 1-9 in the Big 10 this year.

I know you're trying to stick to this guy's arguments (which are of dubious merit anyway) but I don't care what Austin Hollins was rated coming out of high school. He was a very solid player. Tre' Williams was a Top 150 player but he's stunk it up at 3 schools now and doesn't hold a candle to Austin Hollins.

 

[GopherLaundry2013]

Totally agree. He seemed burned out. His relationship with the coaches association in the state was shot too. He stopped doing team camps in the summer.

Between the not being allowed hiring of Jimmy Williams, Royce/Trevor suspensions, and no progress on a practice facility he was done. His offensives were very generic. He was a good example of how defending teams well can at least make you stay out of the cellar.

There also didn't seem to be any sort of player development by Tubby. Rodney never seemed to put it together, and the only player drafted IIRC was Colton Iverson who transferred out.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

There also didn't seem to be any sort of player development by Tubby. Rodney never seemed to put it together, and the only player drafted IIRC was Colton Iverson who transferred out.

This poster sees it clearly. Since Clem nothin but laziness because the U accepted it.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

FWIW - as I recall the situation, Teague was not fired for being a lousy AD - he was fired for being an a-hole who got drunk and made unwanted advances toward multiple women, including a Strib reporter.

on Tubby - hindsight is always 20/20. Looking at the situation now, it's easier for someone to say that Tubby looks better in comparison to Pitino and Johnson - because we can see what happened with those coaches. Of course, it's also impossible to say what would have happened if Tubby had remained as the HC for another 2 or 3 years. But seriously, if the Gophers made the NCAA tourney in 3 of the next 6 years, I think a lot of people would be happy with that ratio.

personally, I prefer the theory that Williams Arena is built on an ancient Native American burial ground, and the program is cursed. one of these days, the entire building is going to collapse into the ground, like the ending of "Poltergeist."

 

[Otis]

To me, 3 NCAA berths vs 2 is pretty similar given the time frame. Pitino had a near miss in 2014 as well.

Sure, Tubby never had an overall losing record but in terms of the Big 10 he never finished above .500 and never got a bye into the Quarters. Pitino did that, at least once.

Tubby's worst 2 seasons he was 6-12 which were not as bad as 2 Pitinos worst years, but still lousy.

Both got to the Big 10 semis at least twice, with Tubby making it to the Finals once. Edge Tubby on that

FWIW - as I recall the situation, Teague was not fired for being a lousy AD - he was fired for being an a-hole who got drunk and made unwanted advances toward multiple women, including a Strib reporter.

on Tubby - hindsight is always 20/20. Looking at the situation now, it's easier for someone to say that Tubby looks better in comparison to Pitino and Johnson - because we can see what happened with those coaches. Of course, it's also impossible to say what would have happened if Tubby had remained as the HC for another 2 or 3 years. But seriously, if the Gophers made the NCAA tourney in 3 of the next 6 years, I think a lot of people would be happy with that ratio.

personally, I prefer the theory that Williams Arena is built on an ancient Native American burial ground, and the program is cursed. one of these days, the entire building is going to collapse into the ground, like the ending of "Poltergeist."

I like to see someone produce that movie, implode the stadium in filming and build the new Williams with the proceeds!

Bill Murray could do a cameo!

 

[CPTMidnight]

As I recall there were some cultural concerns internally. Public face of Tubby was a friendly fatherly type but behind the scenes he was Bobby Knight. You could kinda see it during games when someone would have a defensive lapse and the first thing they would do is look over at Tubby to see how mad he was. Was like 10 times per game.

I know there were some concerns about how the next generation would handle the drill sergeant side of Tubby. I know someone who sat next to an player's parents at the Big 10 Tourney (Cannot remember who..) and struck up a conversation. The net was that the players were not happy and hated Tubby.

(not that any of this is an issue for me)

In the end what killed us was not Tubby but the administration had no idea what they were doing before during and especially after Tubby left. They don't know how to protect the program, nurture it, or reign it in if necessary - nor do they care of any of these things.

 

[NateDawgUM]

This program is so dead that we're discussing a firing from a decade ago.

 

[GoodasGold]

personally, I prefer the theory that Williams Arena is built on an ancient Native American burial ground, and the program is cursed. one of these days, the entire building is going to collapse into the ground, like the ending of "Poltergeist."

The 2027-28 season will be the Williams Arena centenary which normally provides some positive Ju-Ju. I’ve checked and the planets will be in alignment with the Chinese Zodiac showing it to be the year of the Gopher. Native Americans had only a 99 year lease on the haunting so they will be gone.
Patience and Good things come to those who wait (and are still alive). Ski U Mah

 

[Gopherfan84]

There also didn't seem to be any sort of player development by Tubby. Rodney never seemed to put it together, and the only player drafted IIRC was Colton Iverson who transferred out.

Trevor, Westbrook, Al, Hoffarber, and Damien Johnson all developed really well imo as well.

 

[Spaulding!No!]

The 2027-28 season will be the Williams Arena centenary which normally provides some positive Ju-Ju. I’ve checked and the planets will be in alignment with the Chinese Zodiac showing it to be the year of the Gopher. Native Americans had only a 99 year lease on the haunting so they will be gone.
Patience and Good things come to those who wait (and are still alive). Ski U Mah

2027!

 

[Plato]

All games matter. Not just the Big Ten games. To suggest otherwise is absurd. I suspect that you're not indifferent to whether we win or lose when you're watching a non conference game.

Really what counts as a benchmark is getting into the NCAA and advancing.
That mark eliminates the nonconference schedule and to some extent the conference.
Do not get into the NCCA and if in to lose early are marks of mediocrity.
Tubby made that mark.

 

[Bad Gopher]

FWIW - as I recall the situation, Teague was not fired for being a lousy AD - he was fired for being an a-hole who got drunk and made unwanted advances toward multiple women, including a Strib reporter.

on Tubby - hindsight is always 20/20. Looking at the situation now, it's easier for someone to say that Tubby looks better in comparison to Pitino and Johnson - because we can see what happened with those coaches. Of course, it's also impossible to say what would have happened if Tubby had remained as the HC for another 2 or 3 years. But seriously, if the Gophers made the NCAA tourney in 3 of the next 6 years, I think a lot of people would be happy with that ratio.

personally, I prefer the theory that Williams Arena is built on an ancient Native American burial ground, and the program is cursed. one of these days, the entire building is going to collapse into the ground, like the ending of "Poltergeist."

I feel like the insurance claim will get held up forever, like in Poltergeist II.

 

[Gopher_In_NYC]

Umm...Kendal Shell, "former Gophers standout"?!?!

Who doesn’t embellish their resume?

His guest next week - First Team All B10 performer Hosea Crittenden

 

[bga1]

Really what counts as a benchmark is getting into the NCAA and advancing.
That mark eliminates the nonconference schedule and to some extent the conference.
Do not get into the NCCA and if in to lose early are marks of mediocrity.
Tubby made that mark.

Tubby was very fortunate on the bubble picks having never finished above .500 in the Big Ten. But yes he did get to the NCAAs 3 times. The team that advanced was 8-10. Looks great today!

 

[IceBoxGopher]

I think the way things fell apart at the end of that last season made it clear a ceiling was hit and it was time to move on. Tubby seemed to have gotten his preferred roster together with Austin, Andre, Mbakwe and Rodney Williams, and still couldn't hold things together down the stretch.

After starting 15-1, they lost four straight. Two were to Michigan and Indiana, fine, but another was to a Northwestern squad that finished 13-19.

Then, following the win over No. 1 Indiana, they lost a short while later to a 15-18 Nebraska team, as well as a middle of the pack Purdue team. Even when you look at the NCAA tournament win that season, UCLA was missing arguably their best player, Jordan Adams.

I think the point is less that it was a bad fire, and more that a bad hire was made after. Similar situation with Mason in football. Right time to move on, poor choice on successor.