If Tubby can't win at MN

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Block M

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No one can win here, consistently and cleanly. Long term mediocrity of the program is more reflective of an apathetic fan base (at best, completely indifferent at worst), limited in-state talent, and rotten climate than poor coaching.

Pulling with all my might for Tubby and Co. to pull this one out.
 

Not sure no one can, but we would be hard pressed to find a coach with any sort good mojo would want to coach here with the perception that no one can win here. If Tubby leaves without establishing some sort of winning tradition the options will be

1) washed up mid-level major coach who was fired from previous job
2) mid level up and coming mid-major coach who isn't good enough/not proven enough for the top level job openings.

We could get lucky with either I supposed, but this is Minnesota and luck stops at the border.

Even if you hate Tubby, the program will be infinitely better in the long run if he succedes.
 

From the Barn said:
Not sure no one can, but we would be hard pressed to find a coach with any sort good mojo would want to coach here with the perception that no one can win here. If Tubby leaves without establishing some sort of winning tradition the options will be

1) washed up mid-level major coach who was fired from previous job
2) mid level up and coming mid-major coach who isn't good enough/not proven enough for the top level job openings.

We could get lucky with either I supposed, but this is Minnesota and luck stops at the border.

Even if you hate Tubby, the program will be infinitely better in the long run if he succedes.
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Take option 2 and pick the right guy (hopefully waiting til Joel retires to pick the right guy)-- probably saves $1.4million a year on salary also. Right now we are not getting the performance commensurate with the dollars spent and you can only call it bad luck for so long.
 

I have come to believe that it is true. No coach can build a winning program here. Or at least no one can recruit highly sought after talent to this state. It can't be bad luck, incompetents or the coaching staff, that explains why top talent always choose a school other than Minnesota. The football team has the same problem. They just will not come here. Ofcourse, once in a while, we will find a diamond in the rough. But our programs seem to be forever caught in the recruiting doldrums.I don't know if it's the weather or past losing seasons, or apathy or what. We simply do not get the talent.

States like Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska seem to be able to win, with no more in-state talent or apparent recruiting appeal than we have. Yet the mystery goes on and on.
 

Sure, save 1.4 million, and then watch one of the most profitable basketball teams in the country completely tank.

For $600,000 they won't get the right guy because there won't be a decent coach willing to take the job.
 


Block M said:
No one can win here, consistently and cleanly. Long term mediocrity of the program is more reflective of an apathetic fan base (at best, completely indifferent at worst), limited in-state talent, and rotten climate than poor coaching.

Pulling with all my might for Tubby and Co. to pull this one out.
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Me too.

Your above statement is the elephant in the room that overhangs this year IMO. I don't agree that no one can -if Tubby can't. However, another year of losing here by a name coach like Tubby certainly paints that perception and makes it all the harder for the program to recruit the next coach whenever that occurs. It is just crucial that he succeeds here.
 

figi said:
I have come to believe that it is true. No coach can build a winning program here. Or at least no one can recruit highly sought after talent to this state. It can't be bad luck, incompetents or the coaching staff, that explains why top talent always choose a school other than Minnesota. The football team has the same problem. They just will not come here. Ofcourse, once in a while, we will find a diamond in the rough. But our programs seem to be forever caught in the recruiting doldrums.I don't know if it's the weather or past losing seasons, or apathy or what. We simply do not get the talent.

States like Wisconsin, Oklahoma, Kansas and Nebraska seem to be able to win, with no more in-state talent or apparent recruiting appeal than we have. Yet the mystery goes on and on.
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Recruiting?

Cant recruit to MN due to the lack of a practice facility......

What a BS excuse.
 

Block M said:
No one can win here, consistently and cleanly. Long term mediocrity of the program is more reflective of an apathetic fan base (at best, completely indifferent at worst), limited in-state talent, and rotten climate than poor coaching.

Pulling with all my might for Tubby and Co. to pull this one out.
Click to expand...

There's enough in-state talent and I think bad weather is a bad excuse. Wisconsin has no more in-state talent than MN and about the same weather, but has two successful big conference programs.

I'm willing to be patient because I think we have had terrible luck the past few years. What if Royce White never gets in trouble, Devoe Joseph stays and becomes the player we hoped, and Nolen doesn't get hurt? I think things are much different now if none of that ever happens.
 

figi said:
I have come to believe that it is true. No coach can build a winning program here. Or at least no one can recruit highly sought after talent to this state. It can't be bad luck, incompetents or the coaching staff, that explains why top talent always choose a school other than Minnesota.
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Totally disagree. I think that Tubby's style of play is an impediment to attracting the top 25 type players, but the biggest issue is the lack of strong lead recruiter. I honestly think we would be looking back on a much more favorable outcome if Maturi didn't prevent the Jimmy Williams hiring, both in terms of his strength as a recruiter and in terms of better developing the big men.
 



GophersInIowa said:
There's enough in-state talent and I think bad weather is a bad excuse. Wisconsin has no more in-state talent than MN and about the same weather, but has two successful big conference programs.

I'm willing to be patient because I think we have had terrible luck the past few years. What if Royce White never gets in trouble, Devoe Joseph stays and becomes the player we hoped, and Nolen doesn't get hurt? I think things are much different now if none of that ever happens.
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Certainly you are right- what if those things never happened- things would be great in Gopherville. But they did. It's on Tubby to run a successful program at $2mil a year. If he doesn't criticism should be expected. A fan base that would say that the current situation is great is truly an apathetic and perhaps pathetic fan base. We should want more and we should be asking why we can't be better and at least have a run once every three four years at competing for the Big Ten title (don't even have to win it- just have to be competing for it coming down the stretch).

What if Monson had been able to work with a full slate of schollys and no national scandal to battle? What if Bauer, Bickerstaff and Bennett had not went down midseason? What if Pryz and Rickert had stayed? What if we had beaten Illinois? Monson would have done well and he'd still be here. That's the way it goes. As a coach you get credit when you have good luck or clobbered when you don't. That's part of accepting the big contracts. I never thought Monson was a bozo- he just didn't succeed and in the end - what had to happen did. Tubby has certainly been a great coach over time. The question is how dedicated is he to win here and how creative (without cheating) will he get to do it. We need him to win here. He cannot be fired- that would kill the program for years to come.
 

Block M said:
No one can win here, consistently and cleanly. Long term mediocrity of the program is more reflective of an apathetic fan base (at best, completely indifferent at worst), limited in-state talent, and rotten climate than poor coaching.

Pulling with all my might for Tubby and Co. to pull this one out.
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I agree completely. I too am pulling for Tubby here, I mean give the guy his practice facility!
 


MNGreatest said:
I agree completely. I too am pulling for Tubby here, I mean give the guy his practice facility!
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Not to nitpick but it isn't tubby's practice facility. The gophers, especially with an older arena, need a state of the art practice facility to recruit. That is with or without tubby smith.
 



Time to commit blashphemy, but if Tubby can't recruit and win here, the Gophers need to build the best practice facility money can buy attached to a state of the art arena, that is if they want to have a successful basketball program.

We aren't going to get there on coaching, tradition, etc and talent isn't going to show up because they enjoy all four seasons. If the kids need their socks knocked off by the latest bells and whistles, then we better go find some bells and whistles.
 


From the Barn said:
Time to commit blashphemy, but if Tubby can't recruit and win here, the Gophers need to build the best practice facility money can buy attached to a state of the art arena, that is if they want to have a successful basketball program.

We aren't going to get there on coaching, tradition, etc and talent isn't going to show up because they enjoy all four seasons. If the kids need their socks knocked off by the latest bells and whistles, then we better go find some bells and whistles.
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I think you can keep the barn if you get the top of the line facility. However, I wonder how many opposing coaches tell recruits they will get hurt with the raised floor?
 

With basketball there is more than enough in state talent to make this team not only competitive but a conference contender. You can make a big list of Minnesota kids over the last 10 years who have gone elsewhere and to the U that are very good players. Because of the numbers needed for football its very difficult to field a team of mostly Minnesota kids and still be competitive. That is definitely not the case with basketball.
 

During the second half of his tenure at UK, Tubby couldn't win at Kentucky. If you can't win there, how can you win at Minnesota?
 

NateDawgUM said:
During the second half of his tenure at UK, Tubby couldn't win at Kentucky. If you can't win there, how can you win at Minnesota?
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And yet he won at Tulsa and Georgia.

And in the second half of his tenure at Kentucky never missed the NCAA, made the elite8 twice, and won the SEC twice including an undefeated SEC season.

You were saying?
 



This Gopher SuperFan thinks Gopher basketball under Tubby is boring.

Can I say that?

It's a boring product. At least with football you have the mesmerizing horror of epic awfulness.
 

Block M said:
No one can win here, consistently and cleanly. Long term mediocrity of the program is more reflective of an apathetic fan base (at best, completely indifferent at worst), limited in-state talent, and rotten climate than poor coaching.

Pulling with all my might for Tubby and Co. to pull this one out.
Click to expand...

You're either very, very young or have an awful memory. Our amazing atmosphere and fan base of the 1990s and early 2000s cannot be held responsible for producing mediocre basketball. Other way around: mediocre basketball produced apathy and game-time solitude.
 

So Kill hit the nail on the head when he talked about what we have for in-state recruiting - big kids. You can't go to the grocery store without running into an O-line prospect. He seems to have made this his priority for next year's class and hopefully every class (but please recruit some dominant d-linemen too).

So what do we have for in-state talent for basketball? Shooters, IMO. Get a coach who recognizes this and builds around some long ballers. Now don't get me wrong - there are tons of talented 1-5 kids in the state, but I think we have an abundance of shooters around the midwest, particularly Minnesota.

Either that, or just hire Rene Pulley as our DBO
 

I fully agree. I know I will take heat for this but somehow I liked the Monson teams better even though they were generally worse. This year's team has no identity except for Trevor.

Perhaps Minnesota is not a good fit fot Tubby or maybe his time has passed? His players sure don't seem to enjoy the game.

Good coaches figure out how to keep players happy and not transferring. A little encouragement would have kept Iverson around for his senior year.
 


Winnipegopher said:
I fully agree. I know I will take heat for this but somehow I liked the Monson teams better even though they were generally worse. This year's team has no identity except for Trevor.

Perhaps Minnesota is not a good fit fot Tubby or maybe his time has passed? His players sure don't seem to enjoy the game.

Good coaches figure out how to keep players happy and not transferring. A little encouragement would have kept Iverson around for his senior year.
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I have to agree with this as well. Even before the holiday tournament, I was thinking that this just isn't a really exciting brand of basketball, win or lose. The silver lining to the Mbakwe situation is that those minutes will go to SOMEBODY, and that somebody has the opportunity to step up and establish themselves.
 

Yes from an inside source I have heard Tubby is a complete confidence killer in his players. It seems rather evident with his my way or the highway approach, or completely letting, and sometimes telling players to leave. It kinda makes me sick, and I am a huge Tubby fan. I just think there is time for criticism and there is a time for praise and fostering, and some of those guys could have used a few words of encouragement rather than: "you should transfer, we can find you a better program because you won't play here." In short he tried to tell Nolan to transfer, and they would assist him on finding a better program. Maybe he was a Monson recruit, but still look what he became. Then I am sure he told Devoe to take a hike instead of attempting to mentor him, or giving a second chance. I am not sure what exactly happened with Devoe but I know he was smoking the ganj, but was he caught? more than once? Then there was Iverson where I am sure he just told to transfer, cobbs probably the same thing, and Royce you can't blame him at all. If you're telling some of your more talented players to leave because of personality traits that may not even be present it is more detrimental than anything IMO.
 

Hates Monikers said:
You're either very, very young or have an awful memory. Our amazing atmosphere and fan base of the 1990s and early 2000s cannot be held responsible for producing mediocre basketball. Other way around: mediocre basketball produced apathy and game-time solitude.
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Apathetic fan base is a mirage. This is one of the most profitable basketball programs in the country because of a loyal base of season ticket holders who contnue to purchase despite scandal and disappointment and because we hope for growth next year. I happen to like college basketball and the people I go to the games with and will keep going. I bet if you made an analysis of wins to loyalty and profitability, we would be far and away the top program in the country. This team's struggles have nothing to do with the fan base. We are an incredibly loyal bunch. Yes, we will rise from the ashes and some day, people will be jealous that we have season tickets to the best show in town.

I may be in the minority, but I do think the program is in the right direction. The caliber of talent needs to get better, but the likelihood of embarassing off the court problems is very small with the recruits he has brought in the last three years.
 

The problem for Tubby ever since his second year is that he's always had to scramble to cover up holes all over the place. Think back to the start of the '09-'10 season. The media day, the optimism. Coming off an NCAA appearance, we're about to unleash top 100 players including the likes of Mbakwe, Royce White, Rodney Williams, along with returning key cogs from the prior year like VIP, Westbrook, Nolen, and Hoff. Everything was gravy.

Then Royce happened, never to play for the Gophers ever. And on top of that, Mbakwe's got his issues and never plays that season. We get going, then the 76 Classic issues with Nolen and Westbrook and loss to Portland. We bounce back some, get something going, then Al Nolen goes out with his academic issues. Devoe Joseph steps up, we still make the tourney on the strength of that BTT run and so we still hold optimism for better days. But then you have transfer issues, guys who probably signed up for better days, but weren't seeing them. "Tubby's too hard to play for" we heard. Tubby scrambles for some spring recruits to fill holes, probably not as good as he would have wanted, no doubt about it, but that's what happens when you're left to move quickly.

'10-'11 starts very promising, but there's cracks. Devoe is having issues, and eventually leaves. Even so, we work our way into the top 25 consistently during the first 19 games. Then the crucial Al Nolen foot injury in Michigan once again leaves this team weakened. Only this time, there's no recovery and you have the collapse. Another transfer with Iverson, leaving the front line weakened. More hole patching commences.

Now we're into the third season following that great media day. And we're 6-1, but a shaky 6-1, and now the heart and soul of this team goes down with an ACL tear. This season hasn't been written yet, but it feels like once again, circumstances are gonna turn a season sour.

Now Tubby isn't blameless in this whole process, his role in the transfers is debatable, but he had some role in them obviously. But it goes beyond him. He's had so much crap to deal with that just isn't normal for a coach to have to deal with. It's not just one thing. It's not like he just lost a star player or two to things out of his control, it's almost continuous. He hasn't fielded close to a full strength squad since his second year. Tubby has his faults, but he also hasn't been handed very many opportunities for success. Let alone we still don't have a practice facility on the docket.

I can only hold onto hope that he pulls of something amazing this year with the guys that are left.
 

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