If the Vikes stay it looks like they'll need to play in TCF Bank Stadium

[Formo]

Honestly the NFL doesn't care about a middle market. They care about profit margins and happiness of owners.
I don't think there will be much US expansion in the coming decades.
So that leaves moving teams. There are many markets to compete with.
The NFL isn't like MLB or NBA where you have to fill 41 or 81 home dates. An NFL franchise can be in any market in the country (see green bay, buffalo, Tampa).

If mn lost the Vikings to LA or anywhere, Minnesota would he competing with growing southern and western markets, a second team in LA or chicago ect.



I would bet you 1000 dollars if the Vikings leave it would take at least 15-20 years to get a new team.

You must be ignorant. Goodell and other NFL officials have all stated that they want the MN market, more specifically the Vikings to stay in MN. They have a lot to lose if the Vikings leave (like the GB/ChiTown rivalries, which lead to lots of that green stuff you mentioned, etc.).

It may take 10 or so years before the NFL rejoins the TC market.. but mark these words, the NFL badly wants a team in this market.

 

[Rosemountian]

Yes you can definitely take those guys all at their word.Of course it's preferable not to relocate. Don't pretend like they wont. Don't pretend like minnnesota would be more of a priority than anywhere else if the Vikings do move.

 

[Go4Broke]

.

 

[tap]

The whining from the Rector of the Basilica is pure BS.

I guess he did not notice that there is a canyon like area with in interstate in it between the church and where the stadium would be built.

I would say I-94 and I-394 did a pretty good job of destroying the ambiance around the back yard of the Church more than this stadium would come close to doing.

The reality is that the stadium would improve the neighborhood greatly and turn a barren, scrubby wasteland into an attractive neighborhood. That area on the other side of, to the north of 394 is currently worthless for almost any commercial activity, and could use a jump start.

I do not see how that area is even physically connected to the Basilica. I doubt parishioners park back there and walk through the concrete jungle to get to church. Give me a break!

I believe churches do not pay property taxes. If that is true why should they have the right to complain about an upgrade to the area?

 

[Breakin' The Plane]

It was a very different NFL in the late 90s than it is today. I don't think the NFL is likely to expand a ton in the future.

If they do expand, obviously that would make getting a new team easier.

Yeah, it is a very different league. The addition of roving Cyborg linebackers and the ability of running backs to teleport from hash mark to hash mark has really revolutionized the game.

 

[RodentRampage]

Yes you can definitely take those guys all at their word.Of course it's preferable not to relocate. Don't pretend like they wont. Don't pretend like minnnesota would be more of a priority than anywhere else if the Vikings do move.

Who has indicated that the Vikings wouldn't move? I haven't seen anyone saying that the Vikings are bluffing. But we aren't pretending that the NFL would want to be back in this market. We've presented facts why the NFL would want to be in this market.

 

[BBQ Platypus]

One thing it would do to keep in mind is that if the Vikings move, that'll mark three major professional sports franchises that the Minneapolis/Saint Paul market has lost. You don't think owners/the league will think about this?

Bearing in mind also that the NFL has stopped expanding (meaning that we'll have to wait for a stadium crisis in another market so we can steal somebody else's team), and I don't think it's such a ridiculous notion that Minnesota would be without an NFL franchise for a mighty long time if the Vikings moved. I think it's more likely to take over a decade than not.

Sure, the league is SAYING they want a team here today, but will they put their money where their mouths are ten, fifteen years down the road? Or will they look to relocate to Toronto, Mexico City, or (this is a longshot) Vegas? Or in any of the rapidly growing markets to the West and South? We don't know what they'll be thinking in the future. Frankly, I'm not so quick to take Goodell at his word. For all the emotional value and tradition that the Vikings represent, the NFL is a business above all else. If they think they can make more money on another team to the south and west, you can bet they'll at least think good and hard about moving a team to a profitable new market before they consider moving it back to a town that had trouble selling out a playoff game even before they let their team leave.

 

[zambam]

Have people talking about no NFL expansion been ignoring the fact that people saying we'd get a new team say that a team would MOVE here?

 

[BBQ Platypus]

Have people talking about no NFL expansion been ignoring the fact that people saying we'd get a new team say that a team would MOVE here?

Why no. No, we haven't. We are not morons. Our point is that this lack of expansion makes it that much more likely to take a long time to get a new team, since rather than simply waiting two or three years for the league to dump a free team on our doorstep, we will need to wait until somebody else gets screwed over first.

 

[zambam]

Why no. No, we haven't. We are not morons. This of course makes it that much more likely to take a long time to get a new team, since rather than simply waiting for the league to dump a free team on our doorstep, we will need to wait until somebody else gets screwed over first.

Jags are looking like a pretty good candidate to move. They are another team eyeing LA

 

[BBQ Platypus]

Jags are looking like a pretty good candidate to move. They are another team eyeing LA

There are a lot more obstacles to moving the Jaguars than there are commonly assumed to be. For one, their lease runs through 2027. They would also, per the terms of the lease agreement, have to show the league that they've been losing money for three straight years to get out of it before then. Even for a team with sagging attendance like the Jags, it is is VERY difficult for an NFL team to actually lose money. So absent litigation, it is unlikely that they'll get out of it anytime soon unless they're prepared to pay a whole *&^!#*&^!#*&^!#*&^!#load of money. And I mean a LOT of money.

The Jags moving here would still be a possibility, but it's hardly the sure thing that some people think it is.

 

[RodentRampage]

Sure, the league is SAYING they want a team here today, but will they put their money where their mouths are ten, fifteen years down the road? Or will they look to relocate to Toronto, Mexico City, or (this is a longshot) Vegas? Or in any of the rapidly growing markets to the West and South? We don't know what they'll be thinking in the future. Frankly, I'm not so quick to take Goodell at his word. For all the emotional value and tradition that the Vikings represent, the NFL is a business above all else. If they think they can make more money on another team to the south and west, you can bet they'll at least think good and hard about moving a team to a profitable new market before they consider moving it back to a town that had trouble selling out a playoff game even before they let their team leave.

Another team wouldn't be here because of emotion of tradition, the NFL doesn't care about these. A new team would be here for business reasons. This isn't a small market, this is one of the biggest markets in the country, and the NFL wants that market.

Those rapidly growing markets are much smaller than the Twin Cities market, and will be smaller for a long time to come, even if growth continues. Vegas isn't much of a market at all.

 

[Bayfieldgopher]

Its interesting how some no-more-taxes people get all worked up over a 1/2% tax increase. That's $.50 on a $100 purchase. And the legislators wet their pants in fear on not getting re-elected if they vote to raise a tax. Yet they regularly approve fee increases on the public without any concern. Most people pay them and move on. Same thing with the .15% or so sales tax increase for the Twins stadium. Do shoppers stay away from Hennepin County because of the tax?

Check out the number of Wisconsin license plates at the Minnesota malls where Wisky people gladly pay an extra 1-2% additional sales tax on their purchases. Its 7.5% in Duluth versus 5.5% in Superior and liquor purchases are close to 10% versus 5.5%.

The Vikings have an intrinsic value to the Twin Cities area. It would be a shame to see the legislators fail to approve a bill for a stadium due to legislators fear of raising taxes that the vast majority of the public really ignore.

IMO, the dome site is best suited as it has rail and close proximity to the freeways. If Ziggy is concerned about lack of development, then he can go ahead and buy adjacent land and start building. After all, that is what he does.

Plus the UM should benefit by having the Vikings as tenants after being on the bottom of the food chain for years at the damn dome.

 

[short ornery norwegian]

The NFL doesn't have the power to block any team from moving if they chose to.

Any relocation of a franchise must be approved by a vote of the owners - I think the vote must be at least two-thirds or three-fourths in favor in order to allow a relocation.

Now, if the Vikes formally requested permission, I'd say the odds are fairly good that they would receive the necessary votes, but it's not an iron-clad guarantee.

If the Vikes leave, the Gophs might pick up a few fans - but I don't think it would be that many. The Vikes fans are a very different sub-set of fans than the Gophers - Vikes fans skew a little younger - and are more into the "party" aspects of attending a game (i.e. getting sh**-faced drunk.) If the Vikes leave, I'd bet that the vast majority of Vikes fans will be watching the NFL on Sunday Ticket, playing fantasy football, and drinking - NOT attending Gopher FB games.

 

[BBQ Platypus]

Another team wouldn't be here because of emotion of tradition, the NFL doesn't care about these. A new team would be here for business reasons. This isn't a small market, this is one of the biggest markets in the country, and the NFL wants that market.

Those rapidly growing markets are much smaller than the Twin Cities market, and will be smaller for a long time to come, even if growth continues. Vegas isn't much of a market at all.

But Toronto, for instance, certainly isn't. Not saying they WILL necessarily get the nod over the Twin Cities, but if some enterprising businessman is willing to invest the capital, they will at least consider. It's not like Minneapolis-Saint Paul is the only game in town. Hell, the NFL has expressed interest in TWO teams in Los Angeles - I wouldn't put it past them to do that instead (though I'm rather skeptical of it myself). And let's not exaggerate our position - Minneapolis-Saint Paul is very much a middle-of-the-pack media market as far as major MSAs go. You would have to take a pretty big broad definition of "one of the biggest" to consider us to be one of the biggest. We're not even Top 10. It's nice for the league financially to have a team here, but it certainly wouldn't leave a gaping hole in their wallets if they didn't.

 

[supadupafly]

I believe churches do not pay property taxes. If that is true why should they have the right to complain about an upgrade to the area?

especially in regards to property that they DO NOT OWN AT ALL. and most of the linden avenue site property where the stadium is being proposed is privately owned by xcel with only a small portion of it being owned by the city of mpls. the fact that the rector of the basillica of st. mary is being allowed to have so much say in the linden avenue site, when they own NONE OF the property is pretty ridiculous. they don't even own the parking lot where most of their parishioners park. i believe that is entirely owned by xcel as well. and the stadium isn't even going to be built that closely to the basillica. it would be at least 4 blocks away with an interstate freeway providing an additional buffer zone in between.

i am a Christian and i can appreciate to some degree SOME of their concerns, but what ever happened to separation of church and state?

 

[GoAUpher]

especially in regards to property that they DO NOT OWN AT ALL. and most of the linden avenue site property where the stadium is being proposed is privately owned by xcel with only a small portion of it being owned by the city of mpls. the fact that the rector of the basillica of st. mary is being allowed to have so much say in the linden avenue site, when they own NONE OF the property is pretty ridiculous. they don't even own the parking lot where most of their parishioners park. i believe that is entirely owned by xcel as well. and the stadium isn't even going to be built that closely to the basillica. it would be at least 4 blocks away with an interstate freeway providing an additional buffer zone in between.

i am a Christian and i can appreciate to some degree SOME of their concerns, but what ever happened to separation of church and state?

This happens all the time. There is even an acronym for it, NIMBY. Not In My Back Yard. While frustrating, it's not a unique thing. Almost every major building project in any community has to deal with some of it and often it does not come from people who own a piece of the land that is being developed. It is often those who are neighbors to what is being proposed. The difference is the prominence that this particular NIMBY neighbor/critic holds is capable of generating more publicity. Fair/right? Meh, doesn't matter. It is what it is.

 

[KD6-3.7]

I think you're wrong. At the least, you're under-stating the MSP market. There are 32 teams. MSP is the #13 media market. They get top 10 TV ratings among NFL markets. They've sold out every game for 15 years. The NFL is not dying to be in small markets. Jacksonville and Buffalo aren't working out. Green Bay is the exception, but the true market is basically the entire state of Wisconsin. If the Vikings are in LA, MSP becomes the most attractive market to move to, and the Jags, Bills, Raiders and Chargers all may need places to go. Even if a second team goes to LA, the odds of Minnesota getting a team eventually is high. It might take 10 years, but it will happen. And that means those opposing this now are being as penny-wise and pound-foolish as those who didn't want to spend ~$10 million fixing up Met Center for the Stars.

you're talking about media markets in a vacuum. there are demographic trends that the NFL is surely aware of and that have an impact on your argument. the midwest and the northeast grew at a rate of less than 4% in the last ten years while the west and south grew at a rate of 14%. i know that minnesotans don't want to hear about the stagnation of the midwest (and i think that MSP might buck the demographic trend, i truthfully don't know), but in 15 years southern and western media markets will likely have expanded to challenge old-guard markets.

the ten fastest growing media markets in the nation were all in the west and south. whether or not bend OR will be challenging MSP in market size anytime soon is questionable, but there are likely other viable markets that would be considered long term solutions -- especially considering the fact that the vikings would be the third major sports team to have left the state.

 

[CrocShots]

From the article with Kaler in the daily today:

What are your thoughts about the possibility of the Vikings playing at TCF Bank Stadium for the next three years? How do you think it’ll complicate things on campus? Would the University under any circumstance allow a liquor license for the stadium?

Our position — the University’s position and my personal position — is to be as helpful as we can. We welcome the Vikings if that’s needed in the transitional time. And we will work with them to get the facilities and other infrastructure needs that they would need to have to play at TCF.

The traffic impact on Sundays would be something we need to sort out. It’s a lot of people in a close area so there [are] public safety issues. And it would be difficult to turn the field between a Saturday and a Sunday, so we’d have to coordinate the schedules so that there would be only one game per weekend. Whether we could accommodate Thursday night or Monday night games would be something we’d have to look into.

The current law would allow liquor to be served in TCF without any change in that.

BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZE

 

[howeda7]

Yes you can definitely take those guys all at their word.Of course it's preferable not to relocate. Don't pretend like they wont. Don't pretend like minnnesota would be more of a priority than anywhere else if the Vikings do move.

The point is that long-term they aren't going to leave market #13 that gave them top 10 tv ratings and 15 years of sell-outs sit empty while teams slowly die in Buffalo, Jacksonville and Oakland. The only large market they have left sit empty is LA and there were unique reasons for that.

 

[howeda7]

you're talking about media markets in a vacuum. there are demographic trends that the NFL is surely aware of and that have an impact on your argument. the midwest and the northeast grew at a rate of less than 4% in the last ten years while the west and south grew at a rate of 14%. i know that minnesotans don't want to hear about the stagnation of the midwest (and i think that MSP might buck the demographic trend, i truthfully don't know), but in 15 years southern and western media markets will likely have expanded to challenge old-guard markets.

the ten fastest growing media markets in the nation were all in the west and south. whether or not bend OR will be challenging MSP in market size anytime soon is questionable, but there are likely other viable markets that would be considered long term solutions -- especially considering the fact that the vikings would be the third major sports team to have left the state.

It's different with the NFL and MLB than it is for the NBA and NHL. The Oklahoma City Thunder are great and the city loves them. But they could never support an NFL team there. So yes, there are a lot of growing cities in those regions, but there really aren't any that are big enough to host an NFL team. Maybe Portland or Vegas, but they're borderline and certainly not preferable to MSP.

 

[supadupafly]

From the article with Kaler in the daily today:


BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOZE

huh? so the law those idiot legislators wrote in the 11th hour back in 2009 was specific to screwing over the U of M athletic department on U of M game days (football, basketball, hockey). but it says it is okay for a pro sports team to play by a completely different set of rules (if they were to play any games on the U of M campus in U of M campus football, basketball, hockey facilities) to not have to abide by it as well and the pro team gets to make their own rules on a liquor license? guess i am a bit confused by what kaler quote actually means.

either way. man, what a screw job the legislature does to the U of M when it comes to athletics and the ability for the athletic department to make money. the idiot political culture in this state has to make everything sports related SO DAMN DIFFICULT.

 

[disco]

Several comments.

If the Vikings were to leave, we'd have lost two major teams. The NBA was barely a blip on the national radar when the Lakers left for California. They left here because they didn't have a permanent home, and that wasn't that uncommon in that era.

Second, Toronto isn't likely to get a team anytime soon. They don't have an NFL ready stadium. Despite hosting a couple Bills games a year, Rogers Centre only seats 54,000 for American football, which would be the smallest in the league by far, and as such would likely not pass muster with the NFL. The odds of anyone paying to build an NFL stadium in Ontario are slim to none.

And while it's been said already, the game day experience for the Gophers and Vikings are completely different. The Vikings atmosphere is that of a huge party, and the prudes at the U will never allow that.

 

[station19]

huh? so the law those idiot legislators wrote in the 11th hour back in 2009 was specific to screwing over the U of M athletic department on U of M game days (football, basketball, hockey). but it says it is okay for the pro sports team to play by a completely different set of rules (if they were to play any games on the U of M campus in U of M campus football, basketball, hockey facilities) to not have to abide by it as well and they get to play by a different set of rules? man, what a screw job the legislature does to the U of M when it comes to athletics and the ability for the athletic department to make money.

How is it a different set of rules. The U has the ability to sell alcohol at TCF. If they sell it in the suites they must sell it to everyone.

Gopher games - don't sell any.

Viking games - sell to everyone.

Not that difficult to understand.

 

[BBQ Platypus]

It's different with the NFL and MLB than it is for the NBA and NHL. The Oklahoma City Thunder are great and the city loves them. But they could never support an NFL team there. So yes, there are a lot of growing cities in those regions, but there really aren't any that are big enough to host an NFL team. Maybe Portland or Vegas, but they're borderline and certainly not preferable to MSP.

I wouldn't say "certainly." I MIGHT say "probably." It depends on the quality of the pitch. They've survived quite well without L.A. for two decades now. Based on that, I doubt very much they'll be in a special hurry to get football back in MSP. It certainly won't be a matter of life and death for them. Especially if (as seems quite possible) the Cities drop a bit in those media market rankings in the interim.

And again, the teams in those other markets would have to actually MOVE first. Far from being a lock, there are in fact significant obstacles to moving in many of these markets - most notably Jacksonville's lease. This is a major reason why LA doesn't have a team already. You are wrong to dismiss the possibility that football will be gone for a long time if it moves as if it's ridiculous. A substantial possibility exists.

 

[EG#9]

I saw this coming, but the NFL doesn't like the idea of the Vikings playing up to 3 years at TCF: http://www.twincities.com/gophers/ci_19830915

Any idea that has the Vikings homeless for up to 3 years is ridiculous. I think one year at TCF would be good for the University of Minnesota and the Vikings could handle the one year hit on revenue.

 

[1gophergnu]

I hope I'm wrong, but I can see the Gophers forced to play only 11:00AM home games to give the ground crew enough time to convert the stadium from a Gopher stadium to a Viking stadium. I really liked the afternoon games last year and would hate to go back to the morning ones.

 

[station19]

I hope I'm wrong, but I can see the Gophers forced to play only 11:00AM home games to give the ground crew enough time to convert the stadium from a Gopher stadium to a Viking stadium. I really liked the afternoon games last year and would hate to go back to the morning ones.

From above post by crocshots:

"From the article with Kaler in the daily today:
What are your thoughts about the possibility of the Vikings playing at TCF Bank Stadium for the next three years? How do you think it’ll complicate things on campus? Would the University under any circumstance allow a liquor license for the stadium?

Our position — the University’s position and my personal position — is to be as helpful as we can. We welcome the Vikings if that’s needed in the transitional time. And we will work with them to get the facilities and other infrastructure needs that they would need to have to play at TCF.

The traffic impact on Sundays would be something we need to sort out. It’s a lot of people in a close area so there [are] public safety issues. And it would be difficult to turn the field between a Saturday and a Sunday, so we’d have to coordinate the schedules so that there would be only one game per weekend. Whether we could accommodate Thursday night or Monday night games would be something we’d have to look into.

The current law would allow liquor to be served in TCF without any change in that."

 

[supadupafly]

How is it a different set of rules. The U has the ability to sell alcohol at TCF. If they sell it in the suites they must sell it to everyone.

Gopher games - don't sell any.

Viking games - sell to everyone.

Not that difficult to understand.

it is b.s. if the legislature is going to paint the U of M into a corner on the alcohol sales issue. then the U of M should tell the state and vikings to "go pound sand" and no alcohol in general admission as well for vikings games. the U of M's approach on the negotiation of it should be unless the legislature finally wants to cooperate, come back to reality and actually work with the U of M regents on the issue and make a compromise where they cede control of the liquor sales issue back to the U of M regents in return for allowing the vikings to sell alcohol throughout the stadium only on NFL game days.

don't make it easy for the politicians or the vikings. approach the issue and the negotiation of it so you get something in return. the U of M would be smart to play the use of their stadium and getting as much out of it in return off of each other.

 

[GoAUpher]

I saw this coming, but the NFL doesn't like the idea of the Vikings playing up to 3 years at TCF: http://www.twincities.com/gophers/ci_19830915

Any idea that has the Vikings homeless for up to 3 years is ridiculous. I think one year at TCF would be good for the University of Minnesota and the Vikings could handle the one year hit on revenue.

Of course they'd prefer otherwise. The only thing that matters is if they'd actually stand in the way of a new stadium over this. Do you really think the NFL is going to get pissy about the short term revenue hit if it results in a long term stadium solution that dramatically increases the team's yearly revenue and solidifies their position in the market? Obviously they'd prefer a solution that avoids it, but when push comes to shove if a bill passes that puts the new stadium on the Dome set its a safe bet that the NFL signs off.