If the current guys stay....

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Here's a thought:

What do things look like if Battle and Cooper return, we get a PG transfer and a banger?
Assuming all are healthy again and we get nice off season improvement from the 3 frosh and Christie can shoot it...

Payne/ portal big
Garcia/Fox/Ihnen
Battle/JOJ/Betts/Ramberg or portal wing
Carrington/Christie
Portal PG/ Cooper

That's not bad.... with the right mix and development 8-10 Big Ten wins is not crazy

Battle has to become a 25 minute 3 man who is a little more selective
Cooper plays 25 minutes- 15 at the PG and 10 at the 2G
Is Fox a tough enough rebounder/defender to also back up Payne at C?
The fatal flaw with Battle and Cooper was too many minutes
 


Otis said:
What makes you think Payne becomes a star?

He is only effective in the post and is what 6’9”? That’s not big enough to be effective in the post in the NBA. He doesn’t have handles and his range is very short. His ceiling id more Mbawkwe than Oturu. And he doesn’t hit the offensive glass near as well Mbaw did.

I’m not saying he can’t be a first team B1G player, but he ain’t going too far unless he develops some catch and shoot with real range.
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What makes you think Payne becomes a star? Talent. He can't be a 1st team all Big Ten Player and considered a star if he doesn't play in the NBA? There's a long, long list of 1st team all-Big Ten players who haven't played in the NBA.

And you're right, he won't go nearly as far if he doesn't develop his shot. And I think he comes back next year with a decent jumper and jump hook. Why? Because he has the skills to do it. I don't think he'll ever be a great shooter, but he can be an effective one. The same goes for his handle, which is pretty advanced for a guy his size, even though he turned it over a lot early in the year, and his offensive rebounding, which will improve as well.

Yes, he will become a star, because he has talent.
 

bga1 said:
Here's a thought:

What do things look like if Battle and Cooper return, we get a PG transfer and a banger?
Assuming all are healthy again and we get nice off season improvement from the 3 frosh and Christie can shoot it...

Payne/ portal big
Garcia/Fox/Ihnen
Battle/JOJ/Betts/Ramberg or portal wing
Carrington/Christie
Portal PG/ Cooper

That's not bad.... with the right mix and development 8-10 Big Ten wins is not crazy

Battle has to become a 25 minute 3 man who is a little more selective
Cooper plays 25 minutes- 15 at the PG and 10 at the 2G
Is Fox a tough enough rebounder/defender to also back up Payne at C?
The fatal flaw with Battle and Cooper was too many minutes
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I have no inside knowledge but there is no way Battle/Cooper go from being 36-37 mpg guys to 25 mpg. Unless this was a tourney team that had a real shot at making a run.

I still think Payne/Garcia/Portal Wing/Carrington/Portal PG plus JOJ/Christie/Fox/Ihnen contributing has a shot to be a competitive team. Like 8th-12th place competitive, which feels light years away from this year.
 


eker0016 said:
I have no inside knowledge but there is no way Battle/Cooper go from being 36-37 mpg guys to 25 mpg. Unless this was a tourney team that had a real shot at making a run.

I still think Payne/Garcia/Portal Wing/Carrington/Portal PG plus JOJ/Christie/Fox/Ihnen contributing has a shot to be a competitive team. Like 8th-12th place competitive, which feels light years away from this year.
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They aren't coming back so no need to worry about managing minutes.

The silver lining is Payne and Garcia get to start together.
 

Otis said:
Like I said, he can be a first team all-B1G player, but he ain’t going in the first round without outside shooting.
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Not sure why you are making the assumption that saying Payne can be a star refers to the NBA. He may never be a great NBA prospect due to his size and game but that doesn't mean he can't be a star at the college level, and based on his freshman year there is a very good chance he develops into one.
 

eker0016 said:
I have no inside knowledge but there is no way Battle/Cooper go from being 36-37 mpg guys to 25 mpg. Unless this was a tourney team that had a real shot at making a run.

I still think Payne/Garcia/Portal Wing/Carrington/Portal PG plus JOJ/Christie/Fox/Ihnen contributing has a shot to be a competitive team. Like 8th-12th place competitive, which feels light years away from this year.
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Me neither but to me it depends on whether Battle and Cooper want to win or they want the individual minutes. We have already proven that we cannot win with them as big minute "stars".

Watching them - they both get gassed playing those minutes. Neither is a high end natural athlete that can just go forever. They are good players who were asked to do too much because we lacked the other players to go with them.

Battle is likely moving on anyway, but I still wouldn't mind having Cooper in a more limited role- if he is game for it.

I agree that without the 2 they still can find the right guys to make this squad competitive. Payne and Garcia will be among the top 3 or 4 front court duos in the league. Need the guards.
 

bga1 said:
Here's a thought:

What do things look like if Battle and Cooper return, we get a PG transfer and a banger?
Assuming all are healthy again and we get nice off season improvement from the 3 frosh and Christie can shoot it...

Payne/ portal big
Garcia/Fox/Ihnen
Battle/JOJ/Betts/Ramberg or portal wing
Carrington/Christie
Portal PG/ Cooper

That's not bad.... with the right mix and development 8-10 Big Ten wins is not crazy

Battle has to become a 25 minute 3 man who is a little more selective
Cooper plays 25 minutes- 15 at the PG and 10 at the 2G
Is Fox a tough enough rebounder/defender to also back up Payne at C?
The fatal flaw with Battle and Cooper was too many minutes
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It seems like Battle is 95% gone and Cooper is at least 75 % from reading their comments.
 



Everybody is leaving. There is no hope. The program is shutting down. The door locks are being changed. Williams is getting bulldozed. Sports no longer exists at UMN.
 


bga1 said:
Getting old
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Welcome to sarcasm that gets old.
The GH is a cesspool of negativity so why not go way over the top to the Monty Python absurd.
Get used to the schtick. It's my way of pointing out the absurdity of the Debbie Downers and Chicken Littles.
 




MennoSota said:
Welcome to sarcasm that gets old.
The GH is a cesspool of negativity so why not go way over the top to the Monty Python absurd.
Get used to the schtick. It's my way of pointing out the absurdity of the Debbie Downers and Chicken Littles.
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I think we are at a moment in time where most are attempting to join in being positive about the possibility that our coach my yet put the pieces in place and guys will improve. You have been a hopeful poster, why not stick with that and see if the others come along? Up to you- of course.
 

tikited said:
Not working the way you hoped.
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It's going exactly the way I hoped. The U is cancelling basketball and will build a new space program where Williams once lived. There is no hope for basketball at the U. Surely you agree.
 

bga1 said:
I think we are at a moment in time where most are attempting to join in being positive about the possibility that our coach my yet put the pieces in place and guys will improve. You have been a hopeful poster, why not stick with that and see if the others come along? Up to you- of course.
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Just giving wet blanket and crew the full Monty of where there pessimism gets them. Clearly with Battle, Cooper, Evans, Henley, and Samuels all leaving, the world has come to an end in Minnesota. How can our coaches ever recover from the loss of these players. Everyone here obviously wants St Thomas to be the only D1 basketball program in the State as there is clearly no hope for UMN. UMN is broke and cannot function in athletics. Every athlete would rather go on assignment with Mike Rowe in Dirty Jobs than play at UMN. The basketball world has collapsed and there is no hope. Don't you know, bga, the apocalypse has come. UMN is doomed to follow the University of Chicago. 😏
 

MennoSota said:
Just giving wet blanket and crew the full Monty of where there pessimism gets them. Clearly with Battle, Cooper, Evans, Henley, and Samuels all leaving, the world has come to an end in Minnesota. How can our coaches ever recover from the loss of these players. Everyone here obviously wants St Thomas to be the only D1 basketball program in the State as there is clearly no hope for UMN. UMN is broke and cannot function in athletics. Every athlete would rather go on assignment with Mike Rowe in Dirty Jobs than play at UMN. The basketball world has collapsed and there is no hope. Don't you know, bga, the apocalypse has come. UMN is doomed to follow the University of Chicago. 😏
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You are just tossing coal on the fire and nobody is getting any heat from it.
 


MennoSota said:
Everybody is leaving. There is no hope. The program is shutting down. The door locks are being changed. Williams is getting bulldozed. Sports no longer exists at UMN.
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No, No, only BB no longer exists. Hockey is as strong as ever!!!
 

RockChalk said:
No, No, only BB no longer exists. Hockey is as strong as ever!!!
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All is lost. Motzko will lose the 1st game in the tourney like he always does. The whole athletic department is doomed. U of Chicago, move over.
 

MNVCGUY said:
Not sure why you are making the assumption that saying Payne can be a star refers to the NBA. He may never be a great NBA prospect due to his size and game but that doesn't mean he can't be a star at the college level, and based on his freshman year there is a very good chance he develops into one.
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I waver on Payne. He's solid, but he's so physically built and has no shot apparently. If it isn't a dunk or lay-in, at this point, he can be neutralized. How much better can he get? It will be intriguing to see. Also, we need to hit outside shots to open things up for guys like him.

Carrington, on the other hand, can put on some muscle, get much stronger, and can get better at putting the ball on the floor.

You just don't know how much better players will get.

I remember people thinking TT could put on some weight, get better, and contribute.

You just don't know.
 

WriterGoph said:
Get serious. What are you reading?

Thompson hardly played at all this year. His Dad was on Twitter bitching all season. The writing has been on the wall since he didn't get off the bench.

As soon as Evans left, most people did the math and realized chances were high Henley would follow. Henley's AAU coach got pissed he got benched for 6-7 games when he was playing like shit mid-season and that was all she wrote. The fact he played major minutes the last 1/4 of the season didn't impact it. Marcus Fuller wrote something last week stating Henley was likely to transfer.

Neither of these were a surprise to anyone paying attention. Hilarious that you are making a big deal about Thompson of all people. So we should eat up a roster spot for next year with a player who the staff clearly doesn't trust?
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A 7-footer that would rather patrol the perimeter and pop 3's (and not very effectively) than work in the paint and rebound. Throw in a helicopter parent and you've got yourself an ineffective player with a side of PITA.
 

kg21 said:
I waver on Payne. He's solid, but he's so physically built and has no shot apparently. If it isn't a dunk or lay-in, at this point, he can be neutralized. How much better can he get? It will be intriguing to see. Also, we need to hit outside shots to open things up for guys like him.

Carrington, on the other hand, can put on some muscle, get much stronger, and can get better at putting the ball on the floor.

You just don't know how much better players will get.

I remember people thinking TT could put on some weight, get better, and contribute.

You just don't know.
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100%...but we got a really good look at what Payne can do from a footwork standpoint and I think it is safe to assume that he could develop into a great college player. He has to develop a short jumper and improve at the line but he has a chance to be a beast in college basketball.

With Thompson it was all just hope that maybe he could put on the size and become a player that could help out down low. With Payne there is far more substance to any projections as to what he might become.

Carrington seemed to be settling in a little towards the end of the season. He has a chance to be solid and those wanting to write him off in his freshman year will hopefully look back in the near future and realize how wrong they were about him.
 

DarthGopher said:
A 7-footer that would rather patrol the perimeter and pop 3's (and not very effectively) than work in the paint and rebound. Throw in a helicopter parent and you've got yourself an ineffective player with a side of PITA.
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We can all bemoan what people cannot do, but good coaches find what people do well and get the most out of them. A great coach can create a cohesive team out of pretty good players, put them in position to succeed and raise the fortunes of all. A bad coach does the opposite. A bad coach can turn someone of value into someone without value while making them miserable. A good coach can do the opposite.

Not commenting too specifically on TT or Johnson, because I did not watch a ton this year, but what I did see, I can assure you more value could have been extracted from TT. A coach's job is to put everyone in a position to succeed. Understand strengths/weaknesses and accentuate strengths while covering weaknesses. Based on record, clearly we were lacking a bit this year and it is almost guaranteed that you could pick a random fan or be player-coached and win as many games in the Big Ten this year and probably more; it goes without saying, what was done, simply did not work.
 

benlaur said:
We can all bemoan what people cannot do, but good coaches find what people do well and get the most out of them. A great coach can create a cohesive team out of pretty good players, put them in position to succeed and raise the fortunes of all. A bad coach does the opposite. A bad coach can turn someone of value into someone without value while making them miserable. A good coach can do the opposite.
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The odd thing is- in year one, I was very impressed by what Ben was able to do with very little talent. That was one of the worst front courts in Gopher history in terms of depth, rebounding and athleticism and yet they hung in there in most games and won some.
benlaur said:
Not commenting too specifically on TT or Johnson, because I did not watch a ton this year, but what I did see, I can assure you more value could have been extracted from TT. A coach's job is to put everyone in a position to succeed. Understand strengths/weaknesses and accentuate strengths while covering weaknesses. Based on record, clearly we were lacking a bit this year and it is almost guaranteed that you could pick a random fan or be player-coached and win as many games in the Big Ten this year and probably more; it goes without saying, what was done, simply did not work.
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This year, I agree, he did a really poor job of putting people in winning positions. As the year went along the ball movement and defense did get better so I was encouraged by that. I think with TT, he just got pushed around inside. So he floated outside and shot 3s and made 3/25. That just doesn't work. I am not 100% sure that TT was executing what Ben was asking for (I have no way of knowing for sure) but Ben does NOT seem like the kind of coach that will just bury you if you are trying and listening to instruction.
 

bga1 said:
The odd thing is- in year one, I was very impressed by what Ben was able to do with very little talent. That was one of the worst front courts in Gopher history in terms of depth, rebounding and athleticism and yet they hung in there in most games and won some.

This year, I agree, he did a really poor job of putting people in winning positions. As the year went along the ball movement and defense did get better so I was encouraged by that. I think with TT, he just got pushed around inside. So he floated outside and shot 3s and made 3/25. That just doesn't work. I am not 100% sure that TT was executing what Ben was asking for (I have no way of knowing for sure) but Ben does NOT seem like the kind of coach that will just bury you if you are trying and listening to instruction.
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BGA, some players require less coaching. They know how to play relative to each other and that could explain being relatively better last year. This year, there seemed to be role and expectation confusion from what I watched. When players don't know where they fit, the season is going to be long.
 

benlaur said:
We can all bemoan what people cannot do, but good coaches find what people do well and get the most out of them. A great coach can create a cohesive team out of pretty good players, put them in position to succeed and raise the fortunes of all. A bad coach does the opposite. A bad coach can turn someone of value into someone without value while making them miserable. A good coach can do the opposite.

Not commenting too specifically on TT or Johnson, because I did not watch a ton this year, but what I did see, I can assure you more value could have been extracted from TT. A coach's job is to put everyone in a position to succeed. Understand strengths/weaknesses and accentuate strengths while covering weaknesses. Based on record, clearly we were lacking a bit this year and it is almost guaranteed that you could pick a random fan or be player-coached and win as many games in the Big Ten this year and probably more; it goes without saying, what was done, simply did not work.
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TT seems like a good guy, suggesting you could get much more out of him seems pretty unlikely. How do you use him more effectively? Put him underneath? He struggled to rebound and to stop people when they challenged him at the hoop, he has no big man moves to speak of, and mostly, he floated on the perimeter, where he is not skilled as a ball handler or passer, and as previously mentioned, shot 3 for 25 from three, with some really bad misses that weren't close.

So is that Johnson's fault? I had some issues with Johnson's decisions this year, but I still think he can do something as a coach, and when TT didn't box out on rebounds again and again, he finally got benched. In this case, that's what a coach should be doing.
 

salzie said:
If the freshman stay develop and right mix brought in, I think it can happen

18-20 wins puts you on the bubble depending on various things
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Are only hope is that the NCAA expands the field to 256 , we will be on the bubble , but get in & all will be good in GOPHER land
 

benlaur said:
BGA, some players require less coaching.
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Agreed. Usually its either young ones that need more coaching or you made a mistake. We had a lot of older guys Ben's first year and a lot of younger guys his second year. Still, Ben got the most out of that first year batch or close to it.
benlaur said:
They know how to play relative to each other and that could explain being relatively better last year. This year, there seemed to be role and expectation confusion from what I watched. When players don't know where they fit, the season is going to be long.
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I think that the biggest problem this year is A) we had young guys that were not ready (but have potential) and B) Ben made some errors in roster construction. He thought that Cooper could play the PG at the Big Ten level and that Battle could play the 3. While both are able to do that, the pieces just didn't fit together- no speed at the guard spot- save for Henley who was wild for 2/3 of the year. The way this was constructed I think a more seasoned coach might have gotten 5 wins. I think Ben made some progress in his own learning curve this year. At year end it started to look much better as he started to run it through Payne in the low post.
 

Formerswish said:
TT seems like a good guy, suggesting you could get much more out of him seems pretty unlikely. How do you use him more effectively? Put him underneath? He struggled to rebound and to stop people when they challenged him at the hoop, he has no big man moves to speak of, and mostly, he floated on the perimeter, where he is not skilled as a ball handler or passer, and as previously mentioned, shot 3 for 25 from three, with some really bad misses that weren't close.

So is that Johnson's fault? I had some issues with Johnson's decisions this year, but I still think he can do something as a coach, and when TT didn't box out on rebounds again and again, he finally got benched. In this case, that's what a coach should be doing.
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Another interesting thing someone pointed out, is that TT took a big dip from his He. To Sr. Year ratings wise from a top 100 4 to 130 3. Yes ratings are completely subjective, burning wonder if it was indicative of his development leveling off/not continuing.

You can generally tell if a guy’s game has improved from one season to another and although he added some muscle, that seemed like that was it. My hope was that he would be a stretch four competent trey shooter. He doesn’t have the dram to add serious bulk- long and skinny is bad combo for the scenario.
 

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