If the current guys stay....

bga1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
52,391
Reaction score
13,894
Points
113
Another interesting thing someone pointed out, is that TT took a big dip from his He. To Sr. Year ratings wise from a top 100 4 to 130 3. Yes ratings are completely subjective, burning wonder if it was indicative of his development leveling off/not continuing.

You can generally tell if a guy’s game has improved from one season to another and although he added some muscle, that seemed like that was it. My hope was that he would be a stretch four competent trey shooter. He doesn’t have the dram to add serious bulk- long and skinny is bad combo for the scenario.
Maybe he thought he was going to pull a Holmgren....
 

dbmn

Member
Joined
Dec 16, 2016
Messages
72
Reaction score
49
Points
18
What makes you think Payne becomes a star?

He is only effective in the post and is what 6’9”? That’s not big enough to be effective in the post in the NBA. He doesn’t have handles and his range is very short. His ceiling id more Mbawkwe than Oturu. And he doesn’t hit the offensive glass near as well Mbaw did.

I’m not saying he can’t be a first team B1G player, but he ain’t going too far unless he develops some catch and shoot with real range.
Agree regarding Payne. But Payne and the remainder of the roster isn't NBA level, including Henley. Height, quickness, any shooting category (free throws, mid-range or 3's). I wish it weren't so.
 

gopherbadgerman

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 3, 2009
Messages
3,558
Reaction score
880
Points
113
If the freshman stay develop and right mix brought in, I think it can happen

18-20 wins puts you on the bubble depending on various things
If by the right mix you mean 2-3 all big ten players then yes
 

Dakota2

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
2,572
Reaction score
1,954
Points
113
We can all bemoan what people cannot do, but good coaches find what people do well and get the most out of them. A great coach can create a cohesive team out of pretty good players, put them in position to succeed and raise the fortunes of all. A bad coach does the opposite. A bad coach can turn someone of value into someone without value while making them miserable. A good coach can do the opposite.

Not commenting too specifically on TT or Johnson, because I did not watch a ton this year, but what I did see, I can assure you more value could have been extracted from TT. A coach's job is to put everyone in a position to succeed. Understand strengths/weaknesses and accentuate strengths while covering weaknesses. Based on record, clearly we were lacking a bit this year and it is almost guaranteed that you could pick a random fan or be player-coached and win as many games in the Big Ten this year and probably more; it goes without saying, what was done, simply did not work.
Thompson is a 6'11 wing. We had plenty of wings who were quicker, more athletic, and better on defense. He's a three point shooter who hit 12%. We have better.
 



MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
16,095
Reaction score
13,250
Points
113
Hope this is the last TT comment (we have beat him to death). Ben rightfully benched him and he is in the portal. Case closed.
come on now....no case is ever closed on Gopherhole....people love bringing up the same stuff over and over and over and over again....years after it is relevant. :)
 

benlaur

Active member
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
283
Reaction score
195
Points
43
Thompson is a 6'11 wing. We had plenty of wings who were quicker, more athletic, and better on defense. He's a three point shooter who hit 12%. We have better.
I am going to challenge you on that claim. We won 2 out of 19 big ten games. The numbers argue we did not play the right players and/or did not put those players in the best position to succeed.
 

benlaur

Active member
Joined
Dec 19, 2009
Messages
283
Reaction score
195
Points
43
TT seems like a good guy, suggesting you could get much more out of him seems pretty unlikely. How do you use him more effectively? Put him underneath? He struggled to rebound and to stop people when they challenged him at the hoop, he has no big man moves to speak of, and mostly, he floated on the perimeter, where he is not skilled as a ball handler or passer, and as previously mentioned, shot 3 for 25 from three, with some really bad misses that weren't close.

So is that Johnson's fault? I had some issues with Johnson's decisions this year, but I still think he can do something as a coach, and when TT didn't box out on rebounds again and again, he finally got benched. In this case, that's what a coach should be doing.
Great coaches know how to get the most out of people. They make sure players understand their roles, they relish them and they confidently fulfill said roles. There is no confusion. There is team cohesion and a desire to do whatever it takes to win. Maybe this year's team had that, but the records speaks differently.

Put the wrong player with the wrong coach and you rarely get good results. The dude is 6'11" and can move. There are different looks you can throw at different teams. Cover weaknesses, accentuate strengths, find mismatches, etc... Or, as some people like to believe, there is only one way to do something and no matter who coaches any team, you basically get the same result.
 




bga1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
52,391
Reaction score
13,894
Points
113
just noting that 4 of 13 for next years team are now gone
When the OP was written, Henley was already gone and TT was not factored into the equation.
Cooper is the first of the list to move on. Has Battle announced? I'm sure he will but I haven't seen it yet.
 

GopherOhana

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,902
Reaction score
707
Points
113
When the OP was written, Henley was already gone and TT was not factored into the equation.
Cooper is the first of the list to move on. Has Battle announced? I'm sure he will but I haven't seen it yet.
make that 5

battle just entered the portal. I had Evans as one of next years 13 until he decommitted
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
16,095
Reaction score
13,250
Points
113
make that 5

battle just entered the portal. I had Evans as one of next years 13 until he decommitted
Hopefully Battle is the final one to transfer from the current roster. Johnson needs to know what he is working with to go out and try to fill in around those guys.

PG - Portal x 2 or 1 PG and 1 CG
SG - Carrington, Christie
Wing - JOJ, Betts, Ihnen
Post - Payne, Garcia, Fox

Remaining Portal spots probably dictated by what Fox and Ihnen are likely to bring to the table. An experienced wing player would seem like a good fit, multiple guards, maybe a backup center. Will be interesting to see what they are able to bring in. Huge off season for Johnson as the honeymoon period is almost certainly over now.
 




GopherOhana

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 25, 2009
Messages
1,902
Reaction score
707
Points
113
Hopefully Battle is the final one to transfer from the current roster. Johnson needs to know what he is working with to go out and try to fill in around those guys.

PG - Portal x 2 or 1 PG and 1 CG
SG - Carrington, Christie
Wing - JOJ, Betts, Ihnen
Post - Payne, Garcia, Fox

Remaining Portal spots probably dictated by what Fox and Ihnen are likely to bring to the table. An experienced wing player would seem like a good fit, multiple guards, maybe a backup center. Will be interesting to see what they are able to bring in. Huge off season for Johnson as the honeymoon period is almost certainly over now.
so current roster for next season:

Garcia
2 guys that haven't played the last two years: Fox and Ihnen
3 sophomores; JOJ, Payne and Carrington
one redshirt freshman: Betts
One Freshman: Christie
One walk on getting a scholarship: Ramberg

no shortage of opportunities to add 4 quality players to that list
 


Dakota2

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
2,572
Reaction score
1,954
Points
113
I am going to challenge you on that claim. We won 2 out of 19 big ten games. The numbers argue we did not play the right players and/or did not put those players in the best position to succeed.
We played the best we had. TT did not meet a low bar.
 

bga1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
52,391
Reaction score
13,894
Points
113
I am going to challenge you on that claim. We won 2 out of 19 big ten games. The numbers argue we did not play the right players and/or did not put those players in the best position to succeed.
We were 0-10 in Big Ten games TT played in. He just wasn't good and he was behind a number of players at the 4/5 position. His best stretch was when Garcia got injured and in those 4 games he was 0-11 on 3s.
 

Bad Gopher

A Loner, A Rebel
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
22,159
Reaction score
7,994
Points
113
This is the problem.


Next year won't be as much of a Year 0 as Year 0.1 was, but it's going to be every bit the Year 0 that Year 0.2 was. It's definitely going to be another Year 0-ish situation. Not that there's not a nice freshman class to build on, but t's still proving to be Groundhog Day again. I want to think Ben can find some talent and make the postseason next year, but how realistic is that? Even with added talent, there's very little continuity, and you're doing team building almost from scratch again.
 

bga1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
52,391
Reaction score
13,894
Points
113
This is the problem.


Next year won't be as much of a Year 0 as Year 0.1 was, but it's going to be every bit the Year 0 that Year 0.2 was. It's definitely going to be another Year 0-ish situation. Not that there's not a nice freshman class to build on, but t's still proving to be Groundhog Day again. I want to think Ben can find some talent and make the postseason next year, but how realistic is that? Even with added talent, there's very little continuity, and you're doing team building almost from scratch again.
Returning players year 1: Ihnen and he didn't play
Returning players year 2: Battle, Ihnen and Ihnen again couldn't play, Thompson
Returning players year 3: As of now Ihnen, Fox, Payne, Carrington, JOJ, Betts, Garcia

There is no comparison between the first two years and the coming one- the coming one, if there are no more leaving, is far, far better than any he has had to work with prior. Will his final roster be much better than last year? That we won't know until fall. I expect our returning sophs to be better players than they were. We will have an idea how Fox and Ihnen look as well as Betts. And we'll see what we have in Christie and the spring portal guys.
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
16,095
Reaction score
13,250
Points
113
Returning players year 1: Ihnen and he didn't play
Returning players year 2: Battle, Ihnen and Ihnen again couldn't play, Thompson
Returning players year 3: As of now Ihnen, Fox, Payne, Carrington, JOJ, Betts, Garcia

There is no comparison between the first two years and the coming one- the coming one, if there are no more leaving, is far, far better than any he has had to work with prior. Will his final roster be much better than last year? That we won't know until fall. I expect our returning sophs to be better players than they were. We will have an idea how Fox and Ihnen look as well as Betts. And we'll see what we have in Christie and the spring portal guys.
Was going to post something similar but you beat me to it. In terms of returning talent this coming season isn't anything close to the previous 2 where essentially the entire roster was new.

There are absolutely massive holes for Johnson to fill and he has to hit on the transfers he brings in to see any sort of meaningful improvement. But as long as nobody else transfers there is a much more established core in place than there has been.

Returning Core
Garcia - was our best player last year and got better as the year went on.
Payne - showed some real skill for a freshman and will hopefully take another step in the off season. Has a chance to develop into a really good player.
JOJ - provided a lot of solid minutes, probably more of 6th man type but proved he can play as a freshman.
Carrington - had a lot of struggles but seemed to be finding his groove some late in the season
Ihnen and Fox - remains to be seen how they come back from injury but could both be solid pieces
Betts - Had a full year to learn and develop

The team as a whole is in a much better spot than it was heading into either of the past 2 seasons. But there is still a ton of work to be done and to save his job Johnson knows he has to find the right guys.
 

Chico Gopher

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 15, 2018
Messages
420
Reaction score
523
Points
93
To be honest, the only guy who's transferring out that I'm really bummed about is Henley. Loved his potential and felt he was finally starting to get it at the end of the season. Would be curious if the move was motivated strictly by money or if (being a California guy) the weather was one of the many factors for not wanting to stay in Minnesota.
 

Bad Gopher

A Loner, A Rebel
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
22,159
Reaction score
7,994
Points
113
Returning players year 1: Ihnen and he didn't play
Returning players year 2: Battle, Ihnen and Ihnen again couldn't play, Thompson
Returning players year 3: As of now Ihnen, Fox, Payne, Carrington, JOJ, Betts, Garcia

There is no comparison between the first two years and the coming one- the coming one, if there are no more leaving, is far, far better than any he has had to work with prior. Will his final roster be much better than last year? That we won't know until fall. I expect our returning sophs to be better players than they were. We will have an idea how Fox and Ihnen look as well as Betts. And we'll see what we have in Christie and the spring portal guys.
Was going to post something similar but you beat me to it. In terms of returning talent this coming season isn't anything close to the previous 2 where essentially the entire roster was new.

There are absolutely massive holes for Johnson to fill and he has to hit on the transfers he brings in to see any sort of meaningful improvement. But as long as nobody else transfers there is a much more established core in place than there has been.

Returning Core
Garcia - was our best player last year and got better as the year went on.
Payne - showed some real skill for a freshman and will hopefully take another step in the off season. Has a chance to develop into a really good player.
JOJ - provided a lot of solid minutes, probably more of 6th man type but proved he can play as a freshman.
Carrington - had a lot of struggles but seemed to be finding his groove some late in the season
Ihnen and Fox - remains to be seen how they come back from injury but could both be solid pieces
Betts - Had a full year to learn and develop

The team as a whole is in a much better spot than it was heading into either of the past 2 seasons. But there is still a ton of work to be done and to save his job Johnson knows he has to find the right guys.
Very well, then, and points taken. What this means, though (and be careful of what you assert), is that next year we should expect a pretty big step forward in terms of on-court success. Postseason contention, right? And, if the assertion in the other thread is correct--that Ben has more to sell incoming transfers this year than last--we should expect them to pull in markedly more impressive transfers this off season than last.
 

MNVCGUY

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 8, 2011
Messages
16,095
Reaction score
13,250
Points
113
Very well, then, and points taken. What this means, though (and be careful of what you assert), is that next year we should expect a pretty big step forward in terms of on-court success. Postseason contention, right? And, if the assertion in the other thread is correct--that Ben has more to sell incoming transfers this year than last--we should expect them to pull in markedly more impressive transfers this off season than last.
If Johnson finds the right guys in the portal a jump up to postseason contention (NIT or NCAA) isn't impossible. Look at Penn State, Pickett and Funk were both mid-major guys who were huge in their win last night and their run in the Big Ten Tournament.

There is a solid core to fill in around, we will find out this off season if he can do it. Another year like the first 2 almost certainly gets him fired.

The main point is that the overall team situation is far different heading into this off-season. Even with they guys that are leaving there are far more established pieces already in place than what Johnson has had to work with in either of his previous seasons.

In terms of expectations for next season.....that is a tough one because there are so many factors involved that will change between now and the start of next season. But in year 3 I have to believe there will be a need for some clear signs of improvement for Johnson to get year 4. But I don't think any of us can hang a minimum number of wins or any other criteria on what that improvement has to look like right now.

Coyle will know what is needed, what that will be is anyone's guess.
 

Dakota2

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 9, 2020
Messages
2,572
Reaction score
1,954
Points
113
Very well, then, and points taken. What this means, though (and be careful of what you assert), is that next year we should expect a pretty big step forward in terms of on-court success. Postseason contention, right? And, if the assertion in the other thread is correct--that Ben has more to sell incoming transfers this year than last--we should expect them to pull in markedly more impressive transfers this off season than last.
Every fan can and will set whatever expectation they want. Nothing wrong with that. What gets tedious later is fans who find their expectations were not met then start braying "I was told blah blah blah ..."
 

Bad Gopher

A Loner, A Rebel
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
22,159
Reaction score
7,994
Points
113
Every fan can and will set whatever expectation they want. Nothing wrong with that. What gets tedious later is fans who find their expectations were not met then start braying "I was told blah blah blah ..."
It's reasonable for fans to have some idea of what to expect when there are hundreds or thousands of dollars of their money going into season ticket packages and they need to make a go/no go decision on that. This not unlike any product on the market in that respect.
 

Arnold Babar

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2018
Messages
27
Reaction score
34
Points
13
Speaking of rosters.
I just watched Sparty vs USC. A 7 seed vs a 10 seed. Of the players on our roster, only Garcia would see any serious minutes on either team. Maybe Payne gets some developmental minutes. We are light years behind these mid level teams and they are going to keep bringing in players.
Now I'm watching a 14 seed play against a 3 seed. (Kenesaw vs Xavier) I would take anyone off either of these rosters and plug them in as starters immediately.
We have a long way to go folks.
 


bga1

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 20, 2008
Messages
52,391
Reaction score
13,894
Points
113
Speaking of rosters.
I just watched Sparty vs USC. A 7 seed vs a 10 seed. Of the players on our roster, only Garcia would see any serious minutes on either team. Maybe Payne gets some developmental minutes. We are light years behind these mid level teams and they are going to keep bringing in players.
Now I'm watching a 14 seed play against a 3 seed. (Kenesaw vs Xavier) I would take anyone off either of these rosters and plug them in as starters immediately.
We have a long way to go folks.
Here's the bright side of that story....If Kennesaw has players you like and think can compete at this level, then there are a whole lot of players out there in the portal and coming soon, who can help us at the guard position. It's easier to find good guards (IMO) than really good forwards and centers. Ben just has to get that done.
 

Formerswish

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 27, 2022
Messages
177
Reaction score
332
Points
63
Great coaches know how to get the most out of people. They make sure players understand their roles, they relish them and they confidently fulfill said roles. There is no confusion. There is team cohesion and a desire to do whatever it takes to win. Maybe this year's team had that, but the records speaks differently.

Put the wrong player with the wrong coach and you rarely get good results. The dude is 6'11" and can move. There are different looks you can throw at different teams. Cover weaknesses, accentuate strengths, find mismatches, etc... Or, as some people like to believe, there is only one way to do something and no matter who coaches any team, you basically get the same result.
You could throw all of the different looks in the history of basketball out there, find every mismatch, accentuate his strengths, and be coached by John Wooden, and TT would not be a Big Ten caliber basketball player. You can criticize Johnson for some other decisions, but this one seems like a pretty big stretch.
 

Gopher_In_NYC

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 19, 2010
Messages
12,382
Reaction score
8,289
Points
113
There is no way that rotation can win 5 games
Speaking of rosters.
I just watched Sparty vs USC. A 7 seed vs a 10 seed. Of the players on our roster, only Garcia would see any serious minutes on either team. Maybe Payne gets some developmental minutes. We are light years behind these mid level teams
Mid level?

You’re comparing an HC who just completed his second season to Tom Izzo and Sparty? Andy Enfield started at SC around the same time Pitino at MN and has had time to build a program and I wonder what they were like bon the early years of his tenure?

To my knowledge, none of us are vaned Ray and Stevie and we can “see” we have a long way to go.
and they are going to keep bringing in players.
Now I'm watching a 14 seed play against a 3 seed. (Kenesaw vs Xavier) I would take anyone off either of these rosters and plug them in as starters immediately.
We have a long way to go folks.
Would be interesting to know how many of them had more games played in than our core (Garcia, Payne, JOJ and Carrington)
 




Top Bottom